Is "deploying to Docker containers" now a thing?
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@JBert said in Is "deploying to Docker containers" now a thing?:
"tags" in docker image repos are not immutabke things, they may get updated
This is what I'm getting at; you are really working against the flow when you try to have a "static, known image". The whole point of Docker is to give you a "general concept of a OS configuration", that works great in theory. But since the Linux ecosystem is filled with shitty devs using shitty open source libraries built by even shittier devs (I'm talking node/npm), things barely function with a static image, let alone with a slight patched version of something.
Sure you could fork Docker, and have it do whatever the fuck you want, including making you waffles, but it's built for this workflow.
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@apapadimoulis said in Is "deploying to Docker containers" now a thing?:
Developers can hardly create usable software on time; having them manage infrastructure is as foolish as having them do business requirements.
Eh...shouldn't the ops guys be working on the docker stuff? Do you have your CSS guy write SQL, too?
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@mikehurley said in Is "deploying to Docker containers" now a thing?:
@apapadimoulis Out of curiosity, do you have any links that objectively describe problems with Docker? Some of my co-workers have been playing with it. I'd like to give them a serious article to consider if one's available.
Likely not, because no one in the enterprise is taking them seriously yet. The only reason the anyone (with money/budgets) is even considering the idea of Docker is because it's a lot cheaper than VMWare. This is my Microsoft is throwing so much $ at it -- they're conceding that HyperV is a lost cause (compared to VMWare), and will try to beat them here.
But, just look for anyone outside of Etsyflixoogle land who has tried to use it in production environments for actual business applications.
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@boomzilla said in Is "deploying to Docker containers" now a thing?:
Eh...shouldn't the ops guys be working on the docker stuff?
Yeah definitely, but the whole pitch is that "it's not a VM, but a container, so this way devs can just build it! And it's much better and simpler, cause then they just deliver the whole container to Ops!"
Do you have your CSS guy write SQL, too?
Please don't suggest that. Everyone knows SQL is of the old, and if you come up with ideas like that, the next big thing will be some integrated JSON/styling query language. Like Crystal Reports, but shittier and only usable by shitty Javascript devs.
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@apapadimoulis said in Is "deploying to Docker containers" now a thing?:
Yeah definitely, but the whole pitch is that "it's not a VM, but a container, so this way devs can just build it! And it's much better and simpler, cause then they just deliver the whole container to Ops!"
OK. I'm certainly not familiar with the hip trends. Also, my ops guys are clueless about any sort of automation, so if the devs don't do it, it doesn't get done, sadly. But we're also a pretty small team.
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@boomzilla said in Is "deploying to Docker containers" now a thing?:
Also, my ops guys are clueless about any sort of automation, so if the devs don't do it, it doesn't get done, sadly.
Same here. They manage to maintain the stuff we've built, but they don't actually automate anything themselves.
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@apapadimoulis said in Is "deploying to Docker containers" now a thing?:
@JBert said in Is "deploying to Docker containers" now a thing?:
"tags" in docker image repos are not immutabke things, they may get updated
This is what I'm getting at; you are really working against the flow when you try to have a "static, known image". The whole point of Docker is to give you a "general concept of a OS configuration", that works great in theory. But since the Linux ecosystem is filled with shitty devs using shitty open source libraries built by even shittier devs (I'm talking node/npm), things barely function with a static image, let alone with a slight patched version of something.
Sure you could fork Docker, and have it do whatever the fuck you want, including making you waffles, but it's built for this workflow.
Nice rant, but you conveniently didn't quote the sentence after that where I said you could also pick a version set in stone (INB4 "until your image repo goes down or stops serving that version", that's a different problem you see with Nuget or other repos as well).
Tags are meant for when "close-enough" is fine and you still want to reap the benefits of a patched base image. If you make Windows software, do you say it's compatible with "Windows Server 2012" or do you say it needs "Windows Server 2012 without patch KB-68323, KB-85284 but with KB-47284 and KB-59752"? The latter is what's possible in docker through image digest ids.
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@apapadimoulis said in Is "deploying to Docker containers" now a thing?:
This is what I'm getting at; you are really working against the flow when you try to have a "static, known image".
So, Docker perfectly accomodates your use case of having a stable environment, but the people you work with prefer to do things differently and update the environment.
Meanwhile, you believe that if your program used whatever version is by chance installed on the machine, everything would be wonderful. Because it would be hard to update and therefore static?
Tell the people who update the image to stop doing that, instead of blaming Docker...@apapadimoulis said in Is "deploying to Docker containers" now a thing?:
I'm talking node/npm
Maybe that is the root of the problem, not Docker?
@JBert said in Is "deploying to Docker containers" now a thing?:
pick a version set in stone - until your image repo goes down
And even then, you can start with an empty container and put the exact files from your disk that you want to be in the environment.
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@apapadimoulis said in Is "deploying to Docker containers" now a thing?:
the next big thing will be some integrated JSON/styling query language.
This is now a thing. They call it MongoDB.
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@RaceProUK said in Is "deploying to Docker containers" now a thing?:
she's been using for nearly 20 years.
I've been using MS's software for 33 years, does that make me a better MS expert than you ? :/
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On the topic of visual studio installers, have you guys seen the alternate installer for the vs15 preview? That thing is quite good.
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@apapadimoulis said in Is "deploying to Docker containers" now a thing?:
I'm talking node/npm
Oi! As a NodeJs enthusiast i have two things to say:
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@apapadimoulis said in Is "deploying to Docker containers" now a thing?:
Developers can hardly create usable software on time; having them manage infrastructure is as foolish as having them do business requirements.
I know when I was a developer, I managed my own local infrastructure. I had scripts to do all my local environment set-up. I had a script that would do a local SVN repository, name it (always after the ticket number and description), hook it into the web server so I could just go to the checked-out version of the site, run tests before I tried to check in code, etc.
Guess what? I had all my tasks done in a quarter of the time of my peers. While they were twiddling their thumbs baby-sitting the check-out process, I was spinning up a couple of tickets, and fixing bugs and committing while the rest of the tickets loaded.
It's called dev-ops for a reason.
So why isn't your ops team making images your devs can use? Spinning up a clean development machine is an extremely fucking cheap operation any dev should be able to do to improve their workflow.
Provisioning machines is an extremely cheap operation any operations person should be able to do. I mean, they're responsible for on-boarding new employees, right? And these new employees need machines, right? So why are expensive ops people babysitting machines instead of finding ways to make or save money?
I'm an operations manager now, responsible for IT operations, software project management, and business analysis. My last work project earned the non-profit organization I work for some $10,000, and my side business earned me $9000 in the last 12 days. I can only manage it all because I used automation to find the time.
Also, your developers would do a lot better if they did collect business requirements.......
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@Adynathos said in Is "deploying to Docker containers" now a thing?:
Tell the people who update the image to stop doing that, instead of blaming Docker...
So if there is a possibility of awkwardly using a tool in a non-retarded way, but really, no one actually does, and the community promulgates stupid usage... that's when we blame the tool.
Otherwise, you may as well start defending JavaScript and MUMPS.
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@apapadimoulis said in Is "deploying to Docker containers" now a thing?:
So if there is a possibility of awkwardly using a tool in a non-retarded way, but really, no one actually does, and the community promulgates stupid usage... that's when we blame the tool.
That's right. FUCK YOU WINDOWS AND YOUR SO CALLED "UPDATES"
Oh, wait, this is the docker thread. Sorry for the interruption.
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@Captain said in Is "deploying to Docker containers" now a thing?:
I know when I was a developer, I managed my own local infrastructure. [...] I had all my tasks done in a quarter of the time of my peers. While they were twiddling their thumbs baby-sitting the check-out process
I don't mean this sarcastically... but obviously, you are clearly above average (90th-percentile probably?).
Mathematically, most people are simply average or below average.
When you build a system/process/organization that requires above average people, you already have a huge weak point, let alone scalability issues.
Provisioning machines is an extremely cheap operation any operations person should be able to do.
Yes. But they're not. Yet.
The solution is not to have some 90%-er create some convoluted script that one else will ever be able to figure out how to maintain.
Also, your developers would do a lot better if they did collect business requirements.......
If by "better" you mean, "more satisfied at their job cause they hack whatever the fuck they want", then yes. But they sure as shit wouldn't build software that solves actual business problems, because they don't care about doing that.
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@apapadimoulis Why is it then it takes twice as long (and I know what I am doing) to setup a WebAPI or Website on Windows with .NET then it does with something like nodejs or python.
Most of .NET web applications out there are complete shite, this is including things that are considered Enterprise such as Sitecore, Sharepoint, Dynamics.
I can build the same thing in KeyStoneJS as Sitecore and it takes half the time for everything and I would wager the it is the same for almost every .NET based CMS out there as they all have about 15 levels of abstraction over pulling a string out of a database for some reason.
Sorry I don't buy half of this "Oh Linux and NodeJS is soo terrible" because I been building reliable stuff just fine using it for a couple of years now.
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@boomzilla said in Is "deploying to Docker containers" now a thing?:
That's right. FUCK YOU WINDOWS AND YOUR SO CALLED "UPDATES"
seriously though, had to do a system restore this AM because of a botched system update (amazingly that worked). I'm sure I could figure out a way to disable them...
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@apapadimoulis said in Is "deploying to Docker containers" now a thing?:
I'm sure I could figure out a way to disable them...
Might as well just shoot aliens.
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@lucas1 said in Is "deploying to Docker containers" now a thing?:
Why is it then it takes twice as long (and I know what I am doing) to setup a WebAPI or Website on Windows with .NET
Do you not use the project templates in Visual Studio?
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@apapadimoulis said in Is "deploying to Docker containers" now a thing?:
@Captain said in Is "deploying to Docker containers" now a thing?:
Provisioning machines is an extremely cheap operation any operations person should be able to do.
Yes. But they're not. Yet.
The solution is not to have some 90%-er create some convoluted script that one else will ever be able to figure out how to maintain.
Indeed, it's not. The solution is to use an off-the-shelf system like Docker or Vagrant to make it easy to deploy machines.
You kids with your CI and devops tools made my bash scripts obsolete. But you get no benefit out of it if you don't use them.
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@lucas1 said in Is "deploying to Docker containers" now a thing?:
@apapadimoulis Why is it then it takes twice as long (and I know what I am doing) to setup a WebAPI or Website on Windows with .NET then it does with something like nodejs or python.
I guess the same reason it takes ONE THOUSAND times as long to build a house than it does to set up a cardboard shanty.
If you're building something that's designed for other people to maintain, then you can't just hack together some rubbish JavaScript app. If it's a disposable application, then go the whole porta-potty route!
Most of
.NETweb applications out there are complete shiteFTFY.
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Isn't this thread just @apapadimoulis throwing a tantrum because docker is getting more press than BuildMaster?
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@RaceProUK I was talking about actually setting up a Win Server box to deploy to.
But as you mentioned the File > New Project Madness. Yes I do and the ones out of the box either come with nothing there, or they come with too much crap already there. The ones off the net tend to be crap. So I have to make my own, but everytime they release a new version of VS they change the basic dlls need (MV4 to 5 was fucking torture).
This is the best bit, you get hold of say an OWIN template and the docs on MSDN are about 6 months out of date and for some reason they changed the API for go knows what reason in the last 6 months and the DI works completely differently.
Or I could just do:
$ mkdir webapp $ cd webapp $ virtualenv env $ pip install flask
And start getting stuff done or
$ mkdir webapp $ cd webapp $ npm init $ npm express -g express-generator $ <whatever the command to scaffold a express site>
And you guys will whine and crow about it, say how what I am doing is crap etc. But the stuff works and is making me money.
Why do you think Microsoft is trying to retool .NET to be just like NPM. It is because they can't compete with the ease of dev found with tooling such as NPM and devs are choosing to develop with alternative frameworks.
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@apapadimoulis said in Is "deploying to Docker containers" now a thing?:
If you're building something that's designed for other people to maintain, then you can't just hack together some rubbish JavaScript app
Sorry this is utter crap. I seen some pretty horrendous .NET applications that have been far worse than anything I've seen come from JS land. You know why, because half the stuff is build with libraries with fairly decent docs that can be found anywhere.
With half of the .NET stuff, I have to spend time understand WTF castlecore is doign there and then if I try to update anything due to some horrendous bug (hello structuremap.dll) then the whole application breaks and I spend half an afternoon in dll hell.
Then I find some wanker has put in some shit fucking homebrew DI container.
I got good at dealing with stuff like that, and I can't be arsed with the headaches anymore.
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@lucas1 said in Is "deploying to Docker containers" now a thing?:
I was talking about actually setting up a Win Server box to deploy to.
Yeah, that can be a pain. Though you can take a lot of the pain away by using Azure.
@lucas1 said in Is "deploying to Docker containers" now a thing?:
And you guys will whine and crow about it, say how what I am doing is crap etc.
I can't speak for any others, but I know I wouldn't. I've never used Python, but I do like NodeJS.
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@RaceProUK said in Is "deploying to Docker containers" now a thing?:
Yeah, that can be a pain. Though you can take a lot of the pain away by using Azure.
Oh jesus. Azure is a nightmare, the UI is utter crap, the pricing is shit .. no thanks.
Using Amazon's free tier and Digital Ocean for my smaller projects it just works.
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@lucas1 said in Is "deploying to Docker containers" now a thing?:
Sorry this is utter crap. I seen some pretty horrendous .NET applications that have been far worse than anything I've seen come from JS land
So, basically, all languages have shitty things people cobble together? Shocking.
The biggest problem every programming language has is the people using it.
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@lucas1 said in Is "deploying to Docker containers" now a thing?:
the UI is utter crap, the pricing is shit
The UI on Azure is horrendous compared to EC2.
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@loopback0 That was exactly my point. However when you gotta deal with crap in .NET these days it usually takes you so much longer to get to the same point.
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@lucas1 said in Is "deploying to Docker containers" now a thing?:
That was exactly my point.
Apologies, I interpreted it wrong some how.
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@loopback0 said in Is "deploying to Docker containers" now a thing?:
Apologies, I interpreted it wrong some how.
A misunderstanding that resulted in a simple, polite apology? On thedaily.wtf? WTF indeed!
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@Magus said in Is "deploying to Docker containers" now a thing?:
have you guys seen the alternate installer for the vs15 preview
Now I know what I'll do in the next 30 minutes.
@lucas1 said in Is "deploying to Docker containers" now a thing?:
Or I could just do:
$ mkdir webapp
$ cd webapp
$ virtualenv env
$ pip install flaskUpvote for Flask, because it's awesome.
@RaceProUK said in Is "deploying to Docker containers" now a thing?:
I've never used Python
Try Flask some time, when you need to build a simple web service.
@loopback0 said in Is "deploying to Docker containers" now a thing?:
The biggest problem every programming language has is the people using it.
QFT.
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@apapadimoulis said in Is "deploying to Docker containers" now a thing?:
So if there is a possibility of awkwardly using a tool in a non-retarded way, but really, no one actually does
People do stupid things and use tools wrongly all the time, especially in software engineering - on TDWTF it is no surprise. It does not mean everyone has to do stupid things. I understand that you are angry because someone misuses Docker...
But you can turn the situation around and benefit from it.
You want a stable environment for your program - Docker can give you exactly that.
And its not awkward to do that:COPY
the libraries from your filesystem or install withapt-get
orpip
etc... in the Dockerfile- save the image
- build all your deployment images on top of that image
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@Captain said in Is "deploying to Docker containers" now a thing?:
Provisioning machines is an extremely cheap operation any operations person should be able to do.
HIPAA.
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@blakeyrat said in Is "deploying to Docker containers" now a thing?:
@Captain said in Is "deploying to Docker containers" now a thing?:
Provisioning machines is an extremely cheap operation any operations person should be able to do.
HIPAA.
What about it?
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@lucas1 said in Is "deploying to Docker containers" now a thing?:
I can build the same thing in KeyStoneJS as Sitecore and it takes half the time for everything and I would wager the it is the same for almost every .NET based CMS out there as they all have about 15 levels of abstraction over pulling a string out of a database for some reason.
And then you need to resize a PNG image, and your .net app has the Image class RIGHT FUCKING THERE while you're stupid Node.JS garbage app has to call out to something called ImageMagick which, oh BTW, has a huge fucking security hole this week.
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@Captain said in Is "deploying to Docker containers" now a thing?:
What about it?
You can't resolve a bug via a quickly-provisioned machine, because generally speaking it requires copying PMI to your development environment (unless it's the one-in-a-million bug reporter who has repro instructions detailed enough to reproduce the bug locally).
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@blakeyrat said in Is "deploying to Docker containers" now a thing?:
@Captain said in Is "deploying to Docker containers" now a thing?:
What about it?
You can't resolve a bug via a quickly-provisioned machine, because generally speaking it requires copying PMI to your development environment (unless it's the one-in-a-million bug reporter who has repro instructions detailed enough to reproduce the bug locally).
I thought you had a point, but then it was @blakeyrat.
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@Magus said in Is "deploying to Docker containers" now a thing?:
On the topic of visual studio installers, have you guys seen the alternate installer for the vs15 preview? That thing is quite good.
OK, I just downloaded it and checked C++. It showed a message telling me it'll install additional dependencies, linking to this page:
Here's the list:
- Microsoft Build Tools (MSBuild)
- Team Foundation Office Integration
- Microsoft .NET 4.0 Multi-Target Pack
- Windows 8.1 SDK
- Windows 8.1 Store SDK
- Windows 8.1 DirectX SDK
- Universal CRT Extension SDK
- Universal CRT Headers Libraries and Sources
- Universal CRT Redistributable
- Universal CRT Tools
I still see a lot of shit in that list that I don't want.
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@asdf So? Hit ok and ignore it.
Team Foundation Office Integration isn't going to give you cancer. If you don't use it, you don't use it.
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@asdf this is still a preview build for the installer. How fast is it? I'm pretty sure they'll give more control later on, but what they have now is pretty great.
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@blakeyrat said in Is "deploying to Docker containers" now a thing?:
Team Foundation Office Integration isn't going to give you cancer. If you don't use it, you don't use it.
The fact that I'm forced to install all those Windows 8 SDKs is a lot more annoying. Team Foundation Office Integration and the .NET Multi-Target Pack are also unnecessary dependencies, but they probably don't take up much space.
@Magus said in Is "deploying to Docker containers" now a thing?:
I'm pretty sure they'll give more control later on, but what they have now is pretty great.
It's already better than before. Hopefully, they'll get rid of all the other unnecessary dependencies before the release, otherwise the next version of VS will also annoy me.
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@asdf said in Is "deploying to Docker containers" now a thing?:
but they probably don't take up much space.
How tiny-ass is your HD?
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@blakeyrat said in Is "deploying to Docker containers" now a thing?:
How tiny-ass is your HD?
Large enough, but I still don't want to install 4GiB of unnecessary SDKs because Microsoft is too stupid to figure out how to make their IDE work without SDKs for outdated Windows versions.
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@asdf said in Is "deploying to Docker containers" now a thing?:
Large enough,
So then fucking relax and just drift with the current.
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@blakeyrat said in Is "deploying to Docker containers" now a thing?:
So then fucking relax and just drift with the current.
Do you own a mirror? Because now would be a good time to use it.
Shit, I thought you of all people would understand my anger about multiple gigabytes of completely retarded dependencies, but apparently it's okay because it's Microsoft this time.
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@asdf said in Is "deploying to Docker containers" now a thing?:
because Microsoft is too stupid to figure out how to make their IDE work without SDKs for outdated Windows versions.
On the contrary, MS figured out a way to make Visual Studio work without any SDKs at all: https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/bb129445.aspx
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@RaceProUK said in Is "deploying to Docker containers" now a thing?:
On the contrary, MS figured out a way to make Visual Studio work without any SDKs at all.
Ok, let me rephrase that: Microsoft is too stupid to figure out how to make their
IDEC++ toolchain work without SDKs for outdated Windows versions.
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@blakeyrat said in Is "deploying to Docker containers" now a thing?:
And then you need to resize a PNG image
This is why devs should be writing business requirements; clearly, no one needs that. You can use imgsizr.io, which does Image-Handling-As-a-Service, using a RESTful JSON API.
something called ImageMagick
Bit fiddling, in JavaScript? How? Oooh I can't even imagine the shitty libraries they managed to hack together for that... bet it was fun to write though!
which, oh BTW, has a huge fucking security hole this week.
Aaaand of course it does. But this is why you need to get the latest version of all dependencies!