Why tipping is a scam



  • Why Tipping Is A Scam – 08:53
    — GradeAUnderA

    Funny and true.

    I hate tipping.



  • @cartman82 Maybe we ought to have a GradeAUnderThread


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place





  • @cartman82 Why Cartman82 is a jackass



  • @blakeyrat With @cartman82 here, tipping is a fucking pain. Doesn't mean you don't do it when you're in the US or some other country where tipping is a norm. But ... meh .. it's a pain.

    I much prefer the system here, where I don't need to do a bunch of mental gymnastics to figure out how much my next meal is going to cost me. (Also, prices without tax included. Fuck that. :fire:)



  • @cvi said in Why tipping is a scam:

    tipping is a fucking pain.

    Yup. Restaurants are actually quite okay, since you usually spend enough money there that the tip doesn't look silly, and they have the facilities to actually allow you to tip the server.

    But then you have the fucking pizza drivers. What if my order is something like 28 PLN - do I tip 2 to 30 like a jackass, or 12 to 40 for almost 50% tip? What if you pay by credit card - do you just hand the guy coins in addition to that? What if you're broke and can only afford the pizza?



  • @blakeyrat said in Why tipping is a scam:

    @cartman82 Why Cartman82 is a jackass

    Come back when you have a funny video, buddy, then we can talk.



  • @Maciejasjmj said in Why tipping is a scam:

    What if you pay by credit card - do you just hand the guy coins in addition to that?

    They bring a receipt and you add the tip when you sign it. Just like at a restaurant. I usually tip delivery guys ~10% if stuff got there in a reasonable time.



  • @boomzilla My favorite mongolian BBQ place recently switched to one of those dumb iPad-based point-of-sale systems. The problem is, they don't hand the iPad to the customer, they keep it mounted behind the counter-- which means if you want to tip off a credit card, you have to actually verbally tell the cashier that you want to add a tip.

    Last time I went there it was weird as fuck having her ask me flat out, "do you want to add a tip?" So I just kind of fumbled around and found a dollar in my wallet for the tip jar, but. Awkward as fuck.

    Tipping is expected, but you're not supposed to talk about tipping, damnit. And especially not ask for tips.



  • @Maciejasjmj Hmm, around here, you don't tip the delivery guy either. If you pay by credit card when you ordered, that's it.

    Then again, here, the equivalent of 28 PLN doesn't get you a pizza (it almost gets you a slice of pizza at the local grocey store's hot food desk). El cheapo home delivery of a pizza costs the equivalent of 80 PLN (which is less than what you'd pay for a mediocre pizza at a decent place). :-(



  • @cvi If they charge a delivery fee then I'll often take that out of what I'd normally tip.



  • @boomzilla El cheapo pizza home delivery doesn't charge a delivery fee if you're close enough to one of their locations.

    For other choices, the 28 PLN cover maybe the delivery fee. Or not.


  • I survived the hour long Uno hand

    @boomzilla The guy who gets dicked over there doesn't have the power to remove the delivery fee, change the way his wage is calculated, or change the culture around tipping. You'd make more impact just not ordering from companies with a delivery fee.



  • @Yamikuronue said in Why tipping is a scam:

    You'd make more impact just not ordering from companies with a delivery fee.

    I honestly don't remember the last time that I did.



  • @Yamikuronue said in Why tipping is a scam:

    @boomzilla The guy who gets dicked over there doesn't have the power to remove the delivery fee, change the way his wage is calculated, or change the culture around tipping. You'd make more impact just not ordering from companies with a delivery fee.

    Instead of ordering form companies with a 10% delivery fee, order from companies that don't charge a delivery fee but upped their prices by 10%.

    Or lowered wages by 10%.

    Or both.

    Or both AND impose a mandatory 10% delivery fee, which they also pocket.


  • I survived the hour long Uno hand

    @Lorne-Kates said in Why tipping is a scam:

    Instead of ordering form companies with a 10% delivery fee, order from companies that don't charge a delivery fee but upped their prices by 10%.

    Yeah, but that proves that delivery fees are evil! Or whatever the point was.


  • Grade A Premium Asshole

    @Maciejasjmj There's an aggregator around here that covers a bunch of pizza (and other) places and handles payments, and it allows you to add a tip if you're paying by card. Although I usually just hand the driver coins anyway if I have change, since I suspect at least some places just keep the tips for themselves.


  • Impossible Mission Players - A

    @blakeyrat said in Why tipping is a scam:

    The problem is, they don't hand the iPad to the customer, they keep it mounted behind the counter

    They're :doing_it_wrong: . One place I go to has it mounted on the counter on a swivel, so at the appropriate time they just flip it around for me to click (I'm sorry, tap) in an amount and then fingerpaintdrivel my signature and whatever else I need to do to finish the transaction.

    Heck, they could probably have swiveled it around for the card swipe, but raisins.



  • @Yamikuronue said in Why tipping is a scam:

    @Lorne-Kates said in Why tipping is a scam:

    Instead of ordering form companies with a 10% delivery fee, order from companies that don't charge a delivery fee but upped their prices by 10%.

    Yeah, but that proves that delivery fees are evil! Or whatever the point was.

    I have no idea what the point is. But ranting:

    There's some restaurants who so valiantly are adopting a "we pay our staff properly" policy. They've forbidden tipping, under the guise that their staff make just over minimum wage (in a place where wait staff minimum wage is less than normal minimum wage). Sounds good-- wait staff make proper salary.

    BUT WAIT!

    What they've then done is say "well, we can't really afford to pay staff that amount, so you, the customer will". And then tacked a mandatory fee onto each bill, ~10%.

    BUT WAIT!

    That 10% doesn't actually go to the staff. The management pockets it. And when you do the math, the amount of extra base salary the wait staff are making is significantly less than an extra 10% boost in revenue for the owner.

    BUT WAIT!!

    Also when you do the math, that "increase" in salary is significantly SIGNIFICANTLY less than "wait staff minimum + tips".

    So this brave, valiant, selfless move on the restaurant that they heavily HEAVILY HEAVILY PR'd the living shit out of:

    1. Increases the overall cost to customers, who now have no choice if they can tip or not
    2. Significantly decreases the amount of money the staff is making, because they have no tips
    3. Allows the owners to effectively steal the tips of the staff

    I don't think it went over well.



  • Here in the Netherlands, some decades ago tipping was abolished (officially, anyway). As I recall, the way it worked was that the government considers tips to be wages, and thus taxable — but because nobody keeps track of how big a tip they get, taxing them was impossible. The solution was to allow restaurants etc. to increase their prices so the usual tip became included in those, and supposedly give staff a corresponding raise, which the government could then tax.

    In practice, people still give tips in restaurants despite one already technically being included in the bill (which hardly anybody knows — probably not even most restaurant staff).

    OTOH, Pizza delivery etc. doesn’t expect a tip, at least not round where I live, but I suppose nobody would turn it down. For example, an old friend of mine once tipped one 50.50 guilders on an order of 49.50 … Turned out he thought he gave the guy two 25-guilder bills instead of the two 50-guilder ones he actually handed him. No, the rest of us didn’t understand how he managed that either, given that a 25-guilder bill was dark red and a 50-guilder bill was bright orange. Suffice to say, the delivery guy claimed he hadn’t received that big a tip :) (His boss refunded the 50 guilders the following day, though.)



  • @Gurth

    For pizza delivery people, taxicab drivers and the rest, I usually just do the "convenience tip" from the video. If the price is 475, I give them 500 and tell them "keep the change". If the price is 500, tough luck.

    In restaurants and bars, an actual tip is customary. In my circles, it's orbiting in the nebulous range between 5% and 10%. Last time I was paying in a restaurant, I left like 4-5 bucks (on an $80 bill), which was construed as too low by some and appropriate by others.

    But basically, I hate the uncertainty and social dynamic with tipping and wish it would just go away.



  • @Lorne-Kates said in Why tipping is a scam:

    I have no idea what the point is. But ranting:

    I think the point is that your moral crusades regarding minimum wage have backfired. :trolleybus:



  • @cartman82 Tipping is bad because it doesn't serve the purpose it is advertised to serve.

    The theory is that customers will be able to pay more for better service and customer service will improve as a result.

    In practice, this isn't what happens. First of all, it isn't really a market. You can't go to a restaurant and tell the waiter "I'm going to undertip you, please don't visit my table very often and feel free to get my meal wrong". You also can't say "You're getting 25%, kiss my ass more than you planned on doing".

    Second, since everyone knows that employees depend on tips for income, few people drastically undertip. If you don't like the service, you hold a bit back. In reality, a waiter that gives bad service to a good tipper will get a bigger tip than a waiter that gives good service to a bad tipper. So, good service isn't really the way to make money, it's getting a job at the places where rich men take pretty women to impress them. Also, the same phenomenon means that two overworked servers will make more money each than three underworked servers will. So, calling in an extra person is seen as taking money out of the pockets of those currently working. This is why half the restaurants you go to don't have enough servers on the floor.

    Third, it screws up the employee/manager relationship. Wait staff will never get a raise, so they really don't give a shit what their manager thinks about them short of getting fired.

    All of these things are even worse when the employee has marginal control over the satisfaction of the customer - like a pizza delivery guy.


  • Grade A Premium Asshole

    @Jaime said in Why tipping is a scam:

    Second, since everyone knows that employees depend on tips for income, few people drastically undertip.

    I tip well because my father always raised me to have respect for those that have jobs I can't or won't do.

    Serving is both. I don't have the patience to deal with bad customers. I would end up striking someone.

    But, when I get truly bad service I will not leave a tip. But I will also tell the server why, which pisses my wife off.

    The service has to be their fault though. If the service sucks because the manager did not call in enough people but the server does their best to keep up, the tip will still be good.



  • @cartman82 My take on tipping is this:

    When I go to a sit-down restaurant where someone takes my order, and has to go and fetch things for me multiple times because that is the business model (drinks, napkins, whatever), I usually tip up-front. I hand the server what I consider to be a decent tip after they have brought the first [whatever] to the table.

    I used to work in the tip industry when I was in high school. A lot of people try to use tipping to reward/punish behavior from their server. That is a ridiculous mindset, because the server doesn't get to pick their customers, their orders, or what load is assigned to them. The server CAN, however, prioritize what they do, and when. If your goal is to get good service from a server, tipping up front will accomplish that for you. I do so both because that used to be me, and also because I do want to encourage the good service.

    What one can expect to get from that depends a lot on the establishment, how busy they are, and the maturity level of the server. It is kind of a bullshit situation though, especially in states that aren't California. California made it illegal to pay people in tipped positions less than minimum wage. So in California, tips really are JUST gifts (as they were meant to be). In other bullshit/retarded states (looking at you, all of the south and midwest) they only pay the tipped people a pittance, and their tips are counted as their wages. Which means if too many customers don't tip, the server is suddenly making below minimum wage. Federal law says that in that case the establishment is SUPPOSED to cover the difference. In practice though, the server usually walks away without even minimum wage.

    That puts the customers in a weird position of directly paying someone's salary, AND having the power to cut that someone off from their salary. That is BULLSHIT, and the Federal law that allows shitty businesses to pay tipped people (who have ZERO guarantee of getting tipped) less than minimum is criminal. It is also BULLSHIT that the IRS will just apply a flat tax rate on tipped positions, ASSUMING they will make at least that much in tips. You can't dispute it, and you can't negotiate it. So, if you had a really shitty year in a tipped position, and the IRS wants to tax your "tips" at say 15% (I don't remember the exact amount), and you only made 10% in tips, then you get to pay 5% of taxes on NOTHING.

    Bottom line is, the major issue with tipping in the USA is the bullshit federal laws that allow paying someone below federal minimum wage, and the bullshit states and businesses that take advantage of it, and the bullshit IRS and their tax policies.



  • @cartman82 said in Why tipping is a scam:

    If the price is 475, I give them 500 and tell them "keep the change". If the price is 500, tough luck.

    I might or might not round off like that, depending on how I feel and how quick they were about delivering my pizza — but I’m certainly not going to dig extra money out of my wallet beyond basic rounding off to a whole coin or note.

    My attitude to tipping in general is that it should be a reward the customer gives for good service, not an expected part of the cost — if they’re doing their job as I expect them to, I don’t see the need for a tip. And yes, if I were to go to a restaurant other than the McDonalds type I suspect I’d probably pay exactly what it says on the bill. I also did this once with a pizza delivery guy in the US (though that was because I simply didn’t know tipping is expected there) and the person whose house I was staying at ran after him to give him a tip as soon as I returned from the door with the pizzas.



  • @Vaire said in Why tipping is a scam:

    That puts the customers in a weird position of directly paying someone's salary, AND having the power to cut that someone off from their salary. That is BULLSHIT, and the Federal law that allows shitty businesses to pay tipped people (who have ZERO guarantee of getting tipped) less than minimum is criminal. It is also BULLSHIT that the IRS will just apply a flat tax rate on tipped positions, ASSUMING they will make at least that much in tips. You can't dispute it, and you can't negotiate it. So, if you had a really shitty year in a tipped position, and the IRS wants to tax your "tips" at say 15% (I don't remember the exact amount), and you only made 10% in tips, then you get to pay 5% of taxes on NOTHING.

    They brought this on themselves. Several years back - when most customers switched over to using debit cards instead of cash - the IRS noticed something. If you take all of the claimed tips from just those orders where the tip was paid by card, it added up to more than the sum of what all of the employees claimed as tips. If you, as an industry, habitually under-report income, expect new tax laws that are not in your favor.



  • @Polygeekery said in Why tipping is a scam:

    I tip well because my father always raised me to have respect for those that have jobs I can't or won't do.

    I tip because that's the social convention of the country I live in, and not tipping would amount to getting service for free. Respect has nothing to do with it. I also don't tip the guy that fixes my toilet even though I wouldn't do his job - he charges me a fair wage for his service.

    None of what you have said is evidence that tipping an effective social arrangement. It took off in the US as a way to avoid paying income tax. Now that they closed that loophole, it's just a remnant of the old days that we need to grow out of.



  • tips aren't expected here, so I don't

    some restaurants started adding a 10% fee based in foreign culture, but it is an annoyance and most people here usually avoid these

    they put this as default, making you need to look as an asshole if you ask to take it out

    I just see this as a way to mislead on the price. I heard about staff never seeing this 10% in most places here.



  • @Vaire said in Why tipping is a scam:

    That is BULLSHIT, and the Federal law that allows shitty businesses to pay tipped people (who have ZERO guarantee of getting tipped) less than minimum is criminal.

    I wonder if employers were required to pay servers minimum wage again, they would likely increase prices to reflect the increased cost of doing business, and then people would habitually give even bigger tips since tip is usually a percentage of the bill.

    Another thing: Tipping percentages seems a bit odd to me. The bill at an upscale restaurant could be 4+ times or more than the bill at a cheap place. So you'd give 4+ times the tip. Did the server at the upscale restaurant do 4x the job? Do 4x the effort?

    Another thing: I get carryout fairly often, and don't tip the carryout staff. Am I supposed to? They didn't serve me, they just took my money. But what if they're working for a reduced wage? I've never seen anyone else tip for carryout. Are they getting screwed?

    Another thing: I was at a place with a coat room a while ago, and when I got my coat back, I handed the woman $2. Are they working for a reduced wage, or that just a normal tip? What about the other woman who took my coat? She didn't get a tip.

    @Polygeekery said in Why tipping is a scam:

    But, when I get truly bad service I will not leave a tip. But I will also tell the server why, which pisses my wife off.

    Yeah, if they don't know what they did wrong, that defeats the whole carrot-and-no-carrot concept of tipping. But it's horribly awkward to talk about. "I'm going to have to say 'screw you', because..."

    Reservoir Dogs - Tipping Scene – 02:38
    — thebrain100491



  • @Bort said in Why tipping is a scam:

    I wonder if employers were required to pay servers minimum wage again,

    Washington State doesn't have a separate minimum wage for employees who receive tips, because we're not jackasses.

    It doesn't impact tipping culture whatsoever.



  • @Bort said in Why tipping is a scam:

    Another thing: Tipping percentages seems a bit odd to me. The bill at an upscale restaurant could be 4+ times or more than the bill at a cheap place. So you'd give 4+ times the tip. Did the server at the upscale restaurant do 4x the job? Do 4x the effort?

    That's one of the biggest inequities of the tipping system. White males who work at fancy steakhouses get paid a small fortune to serve politicians (who tip with your money). Everyone else gets minimum wage for dealing with screaming kids at the Olive Garden.

    @Bort said in Why tipping is a scam:

    Another thing: I get carryout fairly often, and don't tip the carryout staff. Am I supposed to? They didn't serve me, they just took my money. But what if they're working for a reduced wage? I've never seen anyone else tip for carryout. Are they getting screwed?

    If the employee isn't depending on a tip to put clothes on their back, screw them. Before employers were allowed to pay tipped employees less, tipping was purely used to allow the tipper to look like a big shot in front of whomever they wanted to impress. It's about you, not them. Tip if you feel like it.



  • @Bort said in Why tipping is a scam:

    I wonder if employers were required to pay servers minimum wage again, they would likely increase prices to reflect the increased cost of doing business, and then people would habitually give even bigger tips since tip is usually a percentage of the bill.

    Yep. And then people would eat out less because it was more expensive.


  • Grade A Premium Asshole

    @Jaime said in Why tipping is a scam:

    I tip because that's the social convention of the country I live in, and not tipping would amount to getting service for free. Respect has nothing to do with it. I also don't tip the guy that fixes my toilet even though I wouldn't do his job - he charges me a fair wage for his service.
    None of what you have said is evidence that tipping an effective social arrangement. It took off in the US as a way to avoid paying income tax. Now that they closed that loophole, it's just a remnant of the old days that we need to grow out of.

    I didn't say shit about any of this. I said I tip well because they do a job I won't. Read the words I type and stop chucking more in there that I didn't.



  • @Polygeekery My tipping behavior is 100% disconnected from whether or not I would do their job. I find it odd that it factors into your logic at all.

    It's like the people who keep saying that some group of employees should be paid more because no one else would do their jobs. It turns out that people in shitty jobs pretty much universally get paid poorly... the people making the most are pretty much in the jobs that everyone wants to do.


  • Grade A Premium Asshole

    @Jaime said in Why tipping is a scam:

    That's one of the biggest inequities of the tipping system. White males who work at fancy steakhouses get paid a small fortune to serve politicians (who tip with your money). Everyone else gets minimum wage for dealing with screaming kids at the Olive Garden.

    The service level at those steak houses is a hell of a lot higher and the standards are as well.

    Don't like it, don't work at Olive Garden.



  • @Polygeekery I don't like torture. Are you suggesting that staying out of Guantanamo will fix the problem?


  • Grade A Premium Asshole

    @Jaime said in Why tipping is a scam:

    My tipping behavior is 100% disconnected from whether or not I would do their job. I find it odd that it factors into your logic at all.

    I find it odd that twice now you have put those words in my mouth.



  • @Polygeekery You said you tip well because you wouldn't do their job. That's a connection.


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    @Bort said in Why tipping is a scam:

    Another thing: Tipping percentages seems a bit odd to me. The bill at an upscale restaurant could be 4+ times or more than the bill at a cheap place. So you'd give 4+ times the tip. Did the server at the upscale restaurant do 4x the job? Do 4x the effort?

    In my experience, the service is better in upscale restaurants, but not 4x better. On the other hand, as a customer, it's well worth it to me not to have to deal with:

    @Jaime said in Why tipping is a scam:

    screaming kids at the Olive Garden

    @Polygeekery said in Why tipping is a scam:

    Read the words I type and stop chucking more in there that I didn't.

    YMBNTTI


  • Grade A Premium Asshole

    @Jaime said in Why tipping is a scam:

    I don't like torture. Are you suggesting that staying out of Guantanamo will fix the problem?

    It will.

    For you.



  • @Polygeekery That's an awful selfish way to look at the world.


  • Grade A Premium Asshole

    @Jaime said in Why tipping is a scam:

    You said you tip well because you wouldn't do their job. That's a connection.

    FFS, @Fox comes around here and everyone starts doing this shit.

    It is getting old.



  • @Polygeekery I agree that @Fox is insane. But, you actually said your tip is influenced by the fact that you wouldn't do their job. Then you quoted it back to me. Then you said you didn't say it. I'm not the problem here.


  • Grade A Premium Asshole

    @Jaime

    I tip well because I respect those who wait tables for a living. I said fuck-all about tipping plumbers. I am not Steve Martin in "My Blue Heaven".


  • SockDev

    @cartman82 said in Why tipping is a scam:

    I hate tipping.

    <rant type="undirected venting" ignoragle="ignorable">

    ayep.

    I tip, and tip well because:

    • The wait staff are doing a job that i know from first hand experience is HELL ON EARTH
    • The wait staff are doing a job that earns them zero respect from the patrons.
    • For a variety of shitty socioeconomic reasons it's legal to pay wait staff far less than minimum wage in my country of residence, so the restaurant owners do.
    • I'm not an asshole that thinks i'm so much better then them just because i have a job that pays well enough that i will never have to worry about food.

    This rant is not directed at you, whomever you are reading this,. It is directed at the asshole patrons who think not tipping in a location where it is custom and/or practice to tip is okay. It is directed at the assholes and brownnosers that made it legal for wait staff to be payed below minimum wage for a job that is utterly terrible and painful. It is directed at the socioeconomic factors that make this not only accepted but considered "right" that it should be the case. Other countries manage to pay their wait staff fair wages without tips and they're doing fine!

    So yes, I hate tipping, not because i begrudge the money, it's not about the money. No, I hate it because i know that for every person like me who tips regularly and well there are ten who don't and at least one that will not leave a tip at all, or will think that writing their phone number as the tip with the message "call me for some 'D'" is a proper tip. These people are doing a job i am not willing myself to do, and there are people who will mistreat them for it and not think it's a bad thing.

    That's why i hate tipping.
    </rant>

    .... yep.... and now it's time for me to flee this conversation i think.... i can see the flames already.... and they scare me.



  • @Polygeekery And I don't tip people that I respect (plumbers) because it's not part of the norm. I do tip waiters, but I don't respect them any more (or less) than any other random person. I find it weird that respect factors into the decision.

    Fun fact - 100 years ago, tipping was considered insulting. That's actually why people did it. Giving a tip was a subtle way to say "I have spare money and you look like you need it".



  • @Jaime said in Why tipping is a scam:

    I don't like torture. Are you suggesting that staying out of Guantanamo will fix the problem?

    I think most of the Guantanamo guys have it pretty good these days. Or maybe you meant joining the Navy?



  • @boomzilla Sorry, couldn't think of an example that was still relevant. I was hoping to get away with it. Feel free to suggest alternatives that still practice torture.


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