🔥 I see Korean mercenaries talking to the same restaurant in Utah! Should I go eat 💩?!



  • What should I ask?
    Suggestions or requests?


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    "Do you know @abarker?"



  • worshipping the devil really grants you superpowers? :trolleybus:

    edit: added :trolleybus: to avoid poe's law


  • mod

    @Ascendant said:

    What should I ask?Suggestions or requests?

    Nothing, unless you really are interested. Don't waste their time.



  • Ah dammit. They were on the way to somewhere and didn't have time for a chitchat.
    Just talked for a minute and it had to end there.

    The guy's name (in Romanised Korean) was Miller. I thought it was a family name?



  • @abarker said:

    Don't waste their time.

    But it's super fun though!

    They usually speak fluent Korean accompanied by a Korean, and roam around in pairs usually, looking for random people to bother.

    Why shouldn't I talk to them first then?


  • :belt_onion:

    Talk to them if they are pretty girls (at least your time would not be wasted). Ask them about the wooden cross-continental submarine if you want :trolleybus:



  • @dse said:

    Talk to them if they are pretty girls (at least your time would not be wasted). Ask them about the wooden cross-continental submarine if you want :trolleybus:

    I think I will next time.


  • :belt_onion:

    Before I forget, magic underwear is also a nice conversation opener. They will be delighted to explain it to you. :trollface:



  • Last time I found one, I asked him about polygamy, if they still practice it.

    He said that happened in the old days, inferring it doesn't happen any more. Shame.

    As for the magic nickers , I had to look it up. I know the Golden Tablet(s?) from South Park with the catchy song but never heard of magic nickers before.



  • Ask if they have any spare wives.

    EDIT: oh you beat me to it. Damn!


  • :belt_onion:

    There are FLDS that practice it.You can find them in rural remote places still, but anyone I have talked to knows someone so their number is not that small.



  • I see Mormon missionaries eating in the same restaurant in Korea

    doin' the werewolves of London


  • mod

    @Ascendant said:

    But it's super fun though!

    They usually speak fluent Korean accompanied by a Korean, and roam around in pairs usually, looking for random people to bother.

    Why shouldn't I talk to them first then?

    Let me put it this way: Mormon missionaries devote 18 months to 2 years of their lives to doing nothing but sharing their religion. During that time, their goal is to find people who want to be Mormons. For the duration of their missions, that is pretty much all they do every day. Probably the biggest frustrations for a missionary is people who just want to argue and try to convince them that they are wrong (typically ministers of other religions or Baptists). In some countries, this is all complicated because proselytizing is severely limited[1]. Missionaries in those countries (if there are any) are not permitted to actively seek people, but must wait for people to come to them (for the record, I'm not sure what the situation is in your country). Given all of that, can you see how frustrating it would be to be trolled by someone who clearly isn't interested?

    As for "looking for random people to bother", they aren't trying to bother people. They believe that they have something that can make your life better. That can help you be better. They believe that they have, to put it simply, the meaning of life and the path to salvation. Something so important that it is necessary to share it with everyone possible.

    Now, they always go in pairs for a few reasons. The most important reason is that, as the bible states, "in the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established (2 Corinthians 13:1)".


    [1] About 1 in 3 countries limit proselytizing in some way. In the Asia-Pacific, that increases to about 1 in 2 [cite]


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    @abarker said:

    Now, they always go in pairs for a few reasons. The most important reason is that, as the bible states, "in the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established (2 Corinthians 13:1)".

    TIL.



  • Go up to them very cheerfully and express admiration that they dress to match each other as a couple. Refuse to understand them when they try to explain that they aren't a couple. Hilarity ... ensues ;)



  • @abarker said:

    Don't waste their time.

    Ironically, that's also very good advice for would-be door-to-door missionaries.

    @abarker said:

    their goal is to find people who want to be Mormons

    Here's a helpful diagram of where to find them.



  • What about NO - YES?



  • If someone decides to leave the Mormon faith, then as far as I'm concerned they're no longer a Mormon. So "Already Mormon" implies "Wants to be Mormon", and NO - YES isn't logically possible.


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    Yes/Yes also has a huge contingent in all places where SciFi and fantasy authors can be found.

    I don't quite understand it, either.



  • @anotherusername said:

    "Already Mormon" implies "Wants to be Mormon"

    It may not be true of LDS, but there are some fringe religious groups where the group puts extreme pressure on group members not to leave the group, and for those groups this implication isn't valid.



  • Only if you allow for someone to simultaneously "want to leave" and "not want to leave".

    One of those desires has to be the overriding desire and, logically speaking, that's the one that counts.



  • @abarker said:

    They believe that they have something that can make your life better. That can help you be better. They believe that they have, to put it simply, the meaning of life and the path to salvation. Something so important that it is necessary to share it with everyone possible.

    @Vaire said:

    Go up to them very cheerfully and express admiration that they dress to match each other as a couple. Refuse to understand them when they try to explain that they aren't a couple. Hilarity ... ensues :wink:

    As a young man I also used to enjoy mocking religious proselytizers. Mormons, Witnesses, Hare Krishnas - all wonderful targets for a bit of self-aggrandizing snark. People who act as if the tawdry self-deception they so ardently embrace is the highest and most noble Truth ever discovered by a human being, which it is their solemn duty and heart's desire to impart to me lest I unwittingly suffer eternal damnation, are just funny. They're easy to point and laugh at.

    Which is actually the thing: they're too easy to point and laugh at. Scoring logic points off sincere proselytizers is shooting fish in a barrel. There's no honour in flinging shit at folks who are genuinely just trying to help.

    I'm a little ashamed that it took experiencing psychosis and recovery for me to grow enough empathy to see that. I would rather have been able to think of myself as the kind of person who could have worked it out from first principles.

    These days I do my best to try not to emulate the kind of third-rate intellectual acrobatics that Richard Dawkins has spent the last couple of decades flaunting and flogging, way up there on the world's highest, deadest horse. I'm more than happy to challenge and debate religious ideas at length - happier than most religious folks, in my experience - but I reserve the gratuitous mockery thing for hypocrites who fully deserve it.

    In my experience, most missionaries are not that.



  • @Bort said:

    What about NO - YES?

    Lurking on Reddit.



  • @anotherusername said:

    @abarker, do you have information about missionary success rates that would confirm or deny that the table above is broadly true?



  • I have ZERO sympathy for them. I have had them show up at my door on more than one occasion looking for a family member (who had foolishly given them their contact info), and they wouldn't take NO for an answer. Finally had to get the police involved to stop the harassment, and let them know that I was armed, and if they set foot on my property again, I would consider it a self-defense situation. ONLY taking it to THAT extreme, FORCED them to stop.

    Fuck "missionaries." :middle_finger:



  • I'm perfectly willing to believe that this happened to you, but

    • Assholes have turned up on my doorstep
    • These assholes were proselytizers
      therefore
    • All proselytizers are assholes

    is not a valid syllogism.

    As a counterexample, my local JWs have all been considerate and respectful people whose quota of proselytizing time I have been more than happy to consume single-handed. They even stopped delivering The Watchtower once I'd made it perfectly clear over the course of several hours of lively debate that faith, in and of itself, is an attitude I think causes more problems than it solves.



  • Before I had that experience, where they tried to tell me I COULDN'T tell them to go away and never fucking come back -- I had the same live-and-let-live attitude. Now, though? Fuck 'em. I actively watch them cross traffic and pray for run-away bus mishaps. I don't care if they were isolated bad actors. Fuck the lot of 'em :middle_finger:



  • @Ascendant said:

    Last time I found one, I asked him about polygamy, if they still practice it.

    He said that happened in the old days, inferring it doesn't happen any more. Shame.

    As for the magic nickers , I had to look it up. I know the Golden Tablet(s?) from South Park with the catchy song but never heard of magic nickers before.

    As I understand it, the church agreed to give up polygamy as part of the deal admitting Utah as a state. There were smaller splinter groups that defected because of the change, and some of them still exist today.

    The "magic underwear" appears to just be a slur. Although they do have special temple garments, they apparently don't believe there's anything magical about them.



  • @HardwareGeek said:

    It may not be true of LDS, but there are some fringe religious groups where the group puts extreme pressure on group members not to leave the group, and for those groups this implication isn't valid.

    Given that Islam is the world's second largest religion, I wouldn't call it a fringe group. It's the only group where "extreme pressure on group members not to leave the group" means death.


  • mod

    @flabdablet said:

    @abarker, do you have information about missionary success rates that would confirm or deny that the table above is broadly true?

    No, only anecdotal. When I served as a missionary, I found 12 people who wanted to join[1]. 3 of them were family members of other people who were already Mormon. 4 more were people who had friends that were members who had introduced them to our church. The rest were people I met while knocking on doors. Those were people who knew something was missing from their life but didn't know quite what it was. People who didn't realize that what they were missing was something that the Mormon faith provides.

    One particularly telling incident was a woman who'd been taught that all sorts of things about what we believed. The problem was, everything she'd been told about our beliefs was wrong. When we first met her, she started by trying to convert us, telling us "I can't see how you believe A," and we'd respond saying that we believed B, not A. That first meeting went on like that for a couple hours, until she realized she knew nothing about our beliefs. She invited us back, wanting to understand what we really believe. After a few more meetings, she decided she wanted to be baptized as a member of the LDS church.

    Another time we found someone who already had a copy of The Book of Mormon and was just waiting for some missionaries to come find him. He had no internet, and no idea where to find one of our churches. He needed someone to come to his door to help him find what he wanted.

    And then I have a friend who wanted to be a Mormon for years, but she was afraid of how her devout Catholic family would react. She was finally baptized last month, and her entire family was there to support her. The final push came from a missionary who gave her a date and said "Will you be baptized on this day?"

    My point is, some people don't know that they want to be Mormons, and some people don't know where to find us. And some people are so scared of how their family will react that they won't take another step without a push from someone outside their circle of friends.


    [1] INB4 "Only 12?" I spent about 9 months of my 2 year mission maintaining the office computer network and supplying furniture for the other missionaries in the area. The 9 months after that I was spending about a quarter of my time in the office helping the person who replaced me. Then of course, there was the 2 months I was unable to walk due to tendonitis in my ankle.


  • mod

    @chozang said:

    As I understand it, the church agreed to give up polygamy as part of the deal admitting Utah as a state. There were smaller splinter groups that defected because of the change, and some of them still exist today.

    The primary reason the practice was abandoned was because the US government threatened to revoke the church's legal status and confiscate all church property. Church leaders, and some of the families involved in the practice, started legal challenges, but things were not going our way. In the end, the prophet and president of the church at the time, Wilford Woodruff, prayed and received guidance that it was time for the practice to end. Those families which were currently practicing polygamy would be the last. To avoid further problems with the US government, those families were asked to establish colonies in northern Mexico.

    @chozang said:

    The "magic underwear" appears to just be a slur. Although they do have special temple garments, they apparently don't believe there's anything magical about them.

    Yeah, they are just a reminder of some of the covenants we make in the temple.

    @chozang said:

    Given that Islam is the world's second largest religion, I wouldn't call it a fringe group. It's the only group where "extreme pressure on group members not to leave the group" means death.

    I think he meant fringe LDS, such as the Fundamental-LDS.



  • @anotherusername said:

    So "Already Mormon" implies "Wants to be Mormon"

    That's a faulty assumption. Leaving a religion has significant social implications. One might want to leave the faith, but also doesn't want to alienate their family. Social/family pressure is probably how they joined in the first place.



  • @Vaire said:

    I don't care if they were isolated bad actors.

    Wait'll you find out about their password policies!



  • @Bort said:

    One might want to leave the faith, but also doesn't want to alienate their family.

    Do they want to leave, or don't they? If they stay, then obviously they want to stay more than they want to leave. So they don't really want to leave.

    It's the same question as whether an addict really wants to quit their addiction. The proof isn't in the desire; the proof is in the desire carried out. If you want to stay more than you want to leave, then you don't really want to leave.



  • @abarker said:

    those families were asked to establish colonies in northern Mexico

    "Hey guys, thanks for following the rules all these years. Now GTFO."



  • @abarker said:

    I think he meant fringe LDS, such as the Fundamental-LDS.

    I was thinking more of Jim Jones-David Koresh-type cults. However, if the shoe fits FLDS...


  • mod

    Establishing colonies was nothing new. Admittedly, many of the colonies up to that point had only been in Idaho, Utah, Colorado, and Arizona. But it wasn't like it was unusual for a group to be asked to start a new colony.



  • Man, you are like a dog with a raw-hide, aren't you? Once you latch on to something ...


  • mod

    @HardwareGeek said:

    However, if the shoe fits FLDS...

    There are some women who have left – and some still among them – who make claims which indicate it does. Some notable examples are Rozita Swanson and Carolyn Jessop



  • @abarker said:

    @HardwareGeek said:
    However, if the shoe fits FLDS...

    There are some women who have left – and some still among them – who make claims which indicate it does. Some notable examples are Rozita Swanson and Carolyn Jessop

    The links you give make it seem like Rozita Swanson is a hoaxer. This is the correct link for Carolyn Jessop.



  • Just read part of that (very long) article on the raid.
    If the account is true, then the Texas CPS sound pretty much criminally insane...

    Note: I have never heard about the FLDS before, and do not condone any type of child abuse. I also do not condone abuse of power by any government anywhere.


  • mod

    @chozang said:

    This is the correct link for Carolyn Jessop

    Agh! I wrote some bad Htmlbbmarkcodown. Fixed.


  • mod

    @MHolt said:

    I have never heard about the FLDS before, and do not condone any type of child abuse. I also do not condone abuse of power by any government anywhere.

    I'm kind of split on the event. On one hand, they had an overly strong reaction to what turned out to be a hoax report, which may have been somewhat conditioned by previous experiences with extreme religious groups. On the other hand, multiple people were able to leave the FLDS and several convictions of child molestation resulted, all of which was in some way because of that raid.

    I don't like that it happened, but I don't hate the benefits that came from it.


  • Winner of the 2016 Presidential Election

    When it comes to proselytism, I have one rule: they have the right to preach, on the basis I have a right to ignore them. Their right does not supersede mine.

    Come to my door, and I will likely inform you politely I'm not interested. Persist and I will troll you.

    Stop me in the street, especially if I say I'm in a hurry and I will troll you.

    I always give them a chance to back off before trolling commences. If I don't want their 'help' and the don't take the hint, far as I'm concerned the gloves are off. I don't think this is unfair.


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    @HardwareGeek said:

    but there are some fringe religious groups where the group puts extreme pressure on group members not to leave the group, and for those groups this implication isn't valid.

    That's the first time I've seen Islam being described as 'fringe.' :trolleybus:

    Also :hanzo:.



  • @Vaire said:

    Go up to them very cheerfully and express admiration that they dress to match each other as a couple. Refuse to understand them when they try to explain that they aren't a couple. Hilarity ... ensues :wink:

    Back in high school we did a small festival to gather money for our finalists trip. We went to random businesses in our town looking for sponsors, and we asked for donations from random people on the streets too.

    I partnered with a friend who out of coincidence was wearing clothes very similar to mine. It was... not a particular good idea.



  • @Vaire said:

    Fuck "missionaries." :middle_finger:

    Which position?

    ...would be the obvious joke.



  • @abarker said:

    The primary reason the practice was abandoned was because the US government threatened to revoke the church's legal status and confiscate all church property. Church leaders, and some of the families involved in the practice, started legal challenges, but things were not going our way. In the end, the prophet and president of the church at the time, Wilford Woodruff, prayed and received guidance that it was time for the practice to end. Those families which were currently practicing polygamy would be the last

    I didn't know that the almighty was concerned about taxation.



  • @abarker said:

    the meaning of life and the path to salvation

    Once you introduce levels of rewards, it's no longer salvation.

    You can't be saved by grace, and then be good enough to be a god, or not good enough.


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