My Daily WTF of today
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So I came to work but I was thinking that if I don't get paid by lunch time, I will leave and refuse to come to work until I get paid.
Before I take this action, I though I'd check if this is within the legal range of actions I can take.
So I called the labour authority.
It turns out, if I leave, even if I didn't get paid/half paid, it counts as an unauthorised leave and I'll be held accountable for that action.
The person on the phone said the only thing I can do is to file a formal case.
So I guess it's not legal to refuse to work even if you didn't get paid. Well, it just isn't in this country.
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Well, it just isn't in this country.
Have you thought about defecting to North Korea? It sounds slightly more sane there.
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Feeling pretty bitter about the labour law, I phone the authority again.
This time, I asked if it is legal to come to work but refuse to actually work.
The person on the phone said, "Well, there is a basic rule that goes, No Work, No Wage"
So then I asked, "Then doesn't that also imply, "No Wage, No Work"?
Then she replied, "Well, that's a chicken and egg situation and I don't make or interpret the law. If you refuse to work, your employer is allowed not to pay for those days you didn't work."
Another level of WTF, this is.
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Haha there are funny things I'd like to say but the internet is censored in South Korea and comments like that would make me a criminal of "threatening national security/ worshiping illegal organisation" so I cannot say anything.
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threatening national security/ worshiping illegal organisation
It makes me think that maybe South Korea has the worst labour law within all Asian countries.
Even places that carries the name "blood and sweat factory"(血汗工廠) like Taiwan, their labour law is way saner than South Korean one.
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All I know about the Koreas is that one of them has a lot of Starcraft players and the other only has one computer.
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One of them has nukes.. (not good ones, and they can't seem to deliver them anywhere,but technically)
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can't seem to deliver them anywhere
Oi, they can deliver them just fine!
Oh, you meant deliver successfully
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This time, I asked if it is legal to come to work but refuse to actually work.
Just work slow. Real slow.
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Just work slow. Real slow.
Great idea. But then I wouldn't have the bus fare to go to the office.
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Btw, one thing I don't quite understand...
You said the company has paid like 40% to you, yet you don't have money to pay the bus fare?
I know there's probably things like rent that'd take your money, but in case your cash is so tight that you cannot even pay the bus fare, I'll try to negotiate postpone rent (or whatever fee) payment.
You need funding for transportation even if you're finding a new job instead of continue work there, there's no way I'll just hand out all the money I have.
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Ok so here is another WTF for today.
The lady who drew up the Power Point slide which is used as the user specification containing what each page of this web app should do, says today, "Oh yeah, I forgot to put that feature in the slide show".
The demonstration is in 3 days and the development of the mobile version of this website began 2 days ago and the devs are doing overnight to complete it within this week. They have one week to complete the mobile version of this.
They are asking me to explain the data structure and business rules.
I told them, what had been happening. They understand.Meanwhile, the guy who was in charge( who created the data architecture ) took a vacation.
Nobody knows what exactly this feature is supposed to do. Nobody has a person to turn to ask.
The new manager who took this over seems quite frustrated.
Oh btw, something funny that I had been expecting, has finally emerged.
Data anomaly.
It's already happening, even at the development stage.
I wonder how it will be when users can actually have a go.
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Cross the Japan Seas and come to Japan. At least the labor laws here are not dysfunctional. It's the fine print that you have to worry about.
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My wife and I went to Fukuoka before and we loved it. We accidentally caught a Hanabi(fireworks) festival.
But I heard from my friends from abroad(Western) that Japanese work culture is even worse than Korea?
Everyone has to wear a suit and a tie, do overtime, authoritarianism, etc.We actually saw all those guys wearing exactly the same thing( figuratively) and looking exactly the same.
Could you tell me what it's like to work in Japan? (Assuming you have some experience there)
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I am currently working in Japan after leaving that shithole of my country.
Well, the tie/suit stuff is what the people call here the salarymen of the Showa era, meaning companies with a traditional background like the banking/finance/service industry and oh, the government.
Tech companies try not to do overtime as the cost is high. The labor laws are strict against companies that get their employees to do overtime. Even if you want to work overtime to rush for a project deadline, your PM will force you to stop when it hits 9 pm. Employees who do not need to meet clients and do business dealings are not required to dress formal when they work.
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But I heard from my friends from abroad(Western) that Japanese work culture is even worse than Korea?
"Culture" and "Law" are different. Their labour law is better than what I heard from you for the South Korean one.
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Their labour law is better than what I heard from you for the South Korean one.
Why yes, the law can be much better. The question is, how is it in reality?
Here in Korea, the law says the employer should pay 1.5 times the normal hourly pay for every hour over overtime. In reality, you get $0 for each hour of overtime.
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I don't work in Japan so cannot tell how good or bad the law is enforced.
Looking at what WPT tells us, seem they've done it quite good, but maybe it's just how they run the company.
I have seen novel "なれる!SE" that is said to be based on the author's personal experience and what's heard from other IT-related employees (the first two books are quite real but a bit exaggerating, the later chapters are a bit off, however), and the life presented there is different. Note that the author has stopped working as system engineer for a few years now so things may have been improved between the years.
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I think the law's only part of the problem here.
The other part is tons of workers willing to get stomped on by companies that, say, only pay them 40% of what they're owed. Companies wouldn't get away with it if their employees actually made a stand and/or left.
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Nobody knows what exactly this feature is supposed to do.
Over a year after the product I'm working on regression test stability for launched, someone in Marketing made an offhand comment about our recommendation engine to the offshore manual test team, and it's totally orthogonal to how the devs designed it, and not specified in the requirements, but apparently is a bug now.
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The other part is tons of workers willing to get stomped on by companies that, say, only pay them 40% of what they're owed. Companies wouldn't get away with it if their employees actually made a stand and/or left.
Is there a way to objectively gauge what you're worth when every other company does the same 40% shit?
About making that stand, what would be the coolest/passive aggressive way to go about it? Any blakeyrant thrown in about this would be appreciated very much.
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Well unfortunately, it usually requires a lot of people to do it (one guy going
this is stupid I quit doesn't make an impact, but having your entire workforce do it does).
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one guy going
this is stupid I quit doesn't make an impact,Well what does the ONE GUY do then? Things are fucked as long as the entire workforce doesn't chime in?
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Unfortunately, yes. Your best chance is to hope to find a good company that doesn't abuse its workers. It unfortunately takes enough people being abused and wanting a change to actually make a change...
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This is all theoretical for me, btw. I'm not an economist or anything. YMMV, do not taunt happy fun ball.
Filed Under: Dammit Jim, I'm a programmer, not a social scientist!
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Is there a way to objectively gauge what you're worth when every other company does the same 40% shit?
I doubt every other company does. I'd say if it's truly that common, then it's the Government's responsibility to start auditing payrolls, because that would be like Democratic Republic of Congo-level corruption.
About making that stand, what would be the coolest/passive aggressive way to go about it? Any blakeyrant thrown in about this would be appreciated very much.
It's really simple. Employment is a contract. You work, they pay.
The first thing to do is actually look at your employment contract (if you're a software developer, you almost certainly have one). Read it carefully. That gives you the limits of actions you can perform and your employer can't do shit about it because, guess what, they signed the document.
Beyond that, it's just a matter of not fulfilling your part of the contract if the other party isn't fulfilling theirs. i.e. if you didn't get paid, don't work. If you get paid for 60 hours a week, don't work 80. Etc.
Keep in mind, most likely (almost certainly) either party can leave the contract at any time. That's the case in most US States, and it sounded like you in Korea could get dropped like a hot-potato if the company doesn't like your actions. In that case, the best thing you can do for yourself is save money. Having enough "fuck you" money is like a superpower when dealing with employers.
Well unfortunately, it usually requires a lot of people to do it (one guy going
this is stupid I quit doesn't make an impact, but having your entire workforce do it does).That one guy makes things better on himself, and maybe that's a good start.
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The demonstration is in 3 days and the development of the mobile version of this website began 2 days ago and the devs are doing overnight to complete it within this week. They have one week to complete the mobile version of this.
You, your company, and everyone involved in this product is fucked.
Including whichever chump paid for it.
And especially whichever poor fuckers have to actually USE it.
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Well unfortunately, it usually requires a lot of people to do it (one guy going
this is stupid I quit doesn't make an impact, but having your entire workforce do it does).Yes so I'm thinking about forming a labour union of programmers, engineers, etc. by myself, if there isn't one already. But I've never heard of the Programmers Union.
But realistically, this is hardly going to happen though. I'll probably find a different place. I'm trying to look, but with so much overtime and a 6 month old son, I hardly have any time to myself to even look for a job.
Well, I guess I'd have to bite the bullet and make the leap out of this shitstorm.
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@Lorne_Kates said:
You, your company, and everyone involved in this product is fucked.
Including whichever chump paid for it.
And especially whichever poor fuckers have to actually USE it.
The government payed for it.
The researchers who study and draw out models so that they can understand and prevent natural disasters, these will be the people who use this.
My concern is, this project being non-trivial at all, but rather related to natural disasters, I'm worried that this will lead to another man made disaster like Sampoong Department Store collapse , as Wikipedia puts it,
the deadliest modern building collapse until the September 11 attacks in New York City, and the deadliest non-terror-related building collapse until the 2013 Savar building collapse near Dhaka, Bangladesh.
What if the FEMA of Korea, backed with these researchers, declares an area safe from this coming Typhoon, tells the people to stay, not evacuate, and then shit happens?
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so much overtime
They haven't paid you and you are doing overtime?!?
Have you heard of the term "Work to Rule"? It might be worth pointing out to your manager, PM, whoever is responsible for your workload that
- You have not been paid fully for the work you have done
- You have spoken to the labour authority and they have advised you that your best course of action is to file a formal case, and you are preparing to do this
- Until such time as you have been paid all owed monies, you will be working to the letter of your contract (40 hours a week/9-5 whatever it says) and will not be doing any overtime.
If they have a clause regarding you doing reasonable overtime on request, I would point out that doing overtime when they already owe you money is not reasonable. I would also suggest looking for a new job. I don't know about in SK, but in the UK the only time I have heard of employee pay packets being light is when a company is going under. You are on a sinking hell ship. Get off while you have a choice!
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You are on a sinking hell ship. Get off while you have a choice!
Yes, I'm feeling the sinking sensation. Oh btw look what we've got here. Sinking of MV Sewol,
as the ship was sinkingAnnouncement repeated during capsizing
Do not move. Just stay where you are. It's dangerous if you move, so just stay where you are.“”
As reported by CNN on April 16th.[113]As passengers stayed in their cabins as instructed, the captain and crew members abandoned the ship. The captain, the chief engineer, and the chief and second mates were the first people to be rescued.
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I don't work in Japan so cannot tell how good or bad the law is enforced.
Looking at what WPT tells us, seem they've done it quite good, but maybe it's just how they run the company.
I have seen novel "なれる!SE" that is said to be based on the author's personal experience and what's heard from other IT-related employees (the first two books are quite real but a bit exaggerating, the later chapters are a bit off, however), and the life presented there is different. Note that the author has stopped working as system engineer for a few years now so things may have been improved between the years.
Nowadays, the IT companies in Japan are being managed and run by people who once were engineers. It is a breakaway from the older generations. The management for these companies are now more understanding of the engineer's plights.
But that said, there is no escape from coworkers that are less than mediocre, you get that no matter where you go. They are trying to resolve this by having mandatory "sharing" sessions where the better engineers will need to come up with lessons to bring these engineers up to the expected level. I have a love-hate relationship with this scheme. Love it when I am there to listen and discuss the methods and ideas of other people. Hate it when I have to prepare slides when it is my turn to share...
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The government payed for it.
You're working for a government contractor, and they claim they can't pay you? You're an absolute certified idiot for staying there. They are either completely incompetent or completely corrupt, and neither will result in anything good for you.
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@Lorne_Kates said:
They are either completely incompetent or completely corrupt
Why not both?
Probably is! That's why there's multiple levels of management. Corrupt on top hires incompetent underneath to pass it down / be scapegoats.
Can't afford to pay him-- bullshit. BULLLLSHEEET. There's more bullshit in that than a German bestiality scat porn.
"Sorry, Ascendant, we can't afford to pay you right now"
BULLSHIT the correct response is "Wow, the company must be in big financial trouble. How much did they cut YOUR salary by, boss? Who else is working for free on the team?"
#B
#U
#L
#L
#S
#H
#I
#T
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Denmark had a lockout/strike that lasted some 4 months because of that kind of bullshit.
http://www.arbejdermuseet.dk/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=482&Itemid=648#forliget
Contempoary english article: https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=860&dat=19240225&id=d9IrAAAAIBAJ&sjid=soQFAAAAIBAJ&pg=2683,2570164&hl=da
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@Lorne_Kates said:
@FrostCat said:
@Lorne_Kates said:
They are either completely incompetent or completely corrupt
Why not both?
Probably is! That's why there's multiple levels of management. Corrupt on top hires incompetent underneath to pass it down / be scapegoats.
Can't afford to pay him-- bullshit. BULLLLSHEEET. There's more bullshit in that than a German bestiality scat porn.
"Sorry, Ascendant, we can't afford to pay you right now"
BULLSHIT the correct response is "Wow, the company must be in big financial trouble. How much did they cut YOUR salary by, boss? Who else is working for free on the team?"
#B
#U
#L
#L
#S
#H
#I
#T
Meanwhile broadcasted on other Asian News channels, huge corruption has been discovered in many South Korean corporations and government agencies and investigations are underway.
Every night, South Korea corruption scandals appear on Japanese news channels.
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Meanwhile broadcasted on other Asian News channels, huge corruption has been discovered in many South Korean corporations and government agencies and investigations are underway.Every night, South Korea corruption scandals appear on Japanese news channels.
That sounds about right.
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Interesting. Thanks for the links.
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@WPT said:
Meanwhile broadcasted on other Asian News channels, huge corruption has been discovered in many South Korean corporations and government agencies and investigations are underway.Every night, South Korea corruption scandals appear on Japanese news channels.
That sounds about right.
Uh... are you sure you're in the right Korea?
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Uh... are you sure you're in the right Korea?
What do you mean? o..O?
Why am I not defending South Korea?
Well, if that's your question, the answer is, because it's true and Koreans see that all the time on the news.
I don't feel any association to any ethnic or cultural group. I don't have to identify myself through some external organisation. I am who I am. I don't feel offended however harsh someone might be towards Korea or any other country. That has simply nothing to do with me.
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Well, a lot of the stuff you're posting sounds a bit like the other one...
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Well, a lot of the stuff you're posting sounds a bit like the other one...
I would like to think that I try to think critically about thing happening in this country that are regarded normal. I would try to question them, gain insight through comparison with other cultures/societies.
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I don't think there's anything wrong... No matter you're from South Korea, Taiwan or Hong Kong, I heard people curse their government officials for their wrongdoing.
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I don't think there's anything wrong... No matter you're from South Korea, Taiwan or Hong Kong, I heard people curse their government officials for their wrongdoing.
No matter which country you look at, people curse their government officials. The only difference is whether they are allowed to do it openly/
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No matter which country you look at, people curse their government officials. The only difference is whether they are allowed to do it openly
QFTMFT
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New daily wtf for today.
Can I just make a new post and put a link here?
