I am a Developer from India.One among the bunch of guys you hate for writing unmaintainable shit-ass code that you have to fix. Ask me anything .
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Ugh. You had to remind me of that...
You literally asked. Since this is not the Coding Help section, maybe I shouldn't have answered your question though.
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almost all employees were Indian and the owner was Indian.
I worked for a company like that once — lasted 4 months before I willingly took a pay cut to get out of there, but that's a for a different topic.
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Re-educating those people would be nice. If needed, with a cluebat.
Good luck with that. At a previous employer, we had a VP that traveled from the US to India (our own, off-shore but in-house, office there), and spent something like two weeks there just to drive home one simple message: Don't email files back and forth; check them into the VCS.
It kinda worked, sort of, sometimes. It mostly got rid of build instructions like "check version X out of VCS, then copy /users/foo/projects/bar/baz, then replace random_file.c with the one attached to this email," but only mostly. We still had stuff released to production that couldn't be recreated because it had been built like that.
Filed under: 500 Internal Server Error
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I mostly find the quality of work that comes out of the western world very very high. I am not kissing ass here but would really like to know what sort of mentality and drive makes that happen. What would you suggest as to some of us getting to the same level? What do you do that you think is fundamentally different from the way that we think and do things? What is the edge that you guys have over us?
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Also out of curiosity, Have you guys been called "Hey "BRO" " during a casual conversation when you had the misfortune to talk to us folks?
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Don't email files back and forth; check them into the VCS
Ummm... This happened at my company some 3 months back. Are we working with each other?
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I think in Brazil there is very little incentive to be great at coding. There is no sillicon valley here, 95% of the jobs are boring bussiness applications. All the good coders here are crazy people that code for fun. Isn't it the same in India?
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Yes. 90% is either CRUD stuff or support for CRUD stuff. Throw in people who don't know what CRUD is to the mix and that is what we have. The good programmers I know code in their spare time and have a completely unrelated Day Job.
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Are we working with each other?
I doubt it; this was maybe two or three years ago. Plus, it wasn't outsourced; it was our own office in India.
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Plus, it wasn't outsourced; it was our own office in India.
How high should someone be to decide to have an office around here?
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How high should someone be to decide to have an office around here?
As I'm sure you know, a lot of multinational corporations have offices in low cost of labor places like India and China. (We had both.) In theory, the low cost outweighs the low quality, at least on the balance sheet, which is all most management of sufficiently high level to make that kind of decision cares about.
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In theory, the low cost outweighs the low quality, at least on the balance sheet, which is all most management of sufficiently high level to make that kind of decision cares about.
I get it. Is this true even now ?
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In theory, the low cost outweighs the low quality,
Therefore, we outsourced our QA to India.
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Education
Not sure how universities or technical schools are there, but I'll bet a month salary that classes are crowded... and that doesn't help for a good education.
Greed
If you guys are fine with making minimum wage, good for you... you communists. Here on the west we thrive for more money to buy more stuff like a Mercedes Benz or a BMW, a nice house and private education for the kids. Not everyone is like that of course, but most are.
Competition
Read greed
Job security
At least in Europe, jobs are protected by law. Although you can get fired, usually this won't happen for missing a dead-line or two. Even then, you can sue your employer. My point is, we can give a little more focus on quality and maintainability than on speed.
Expectations
When a company pays a company like the one I work at, they know they're going to have to pay a premium price, but their expectations are that they'll get good quality. When a company goes to India, their expectations are the lowest price possible. The problem is, I don't think that if you setup a shop in India and charge a 150€ hourly rate on the promise on shipping great quality products, you'll live more than 6 months.
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Not sure how universities or technical schools are there, but I'll bet a month salary that classes are crowded... and that doesn't help for a good education.
Crowded relatively? It is mostly not the case. I've had classes with five hundred people that was amazing and classes with 10 people that was complete shit. CS professors for the most part don't know anything.
Here on the west we thrive for more money to buy more stuff like a Mercedes Benz or a BMW, a nice house and private education for the kids
Same here except we wanna do it without working for it. Shortcuts are the way to go.
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I mostly find the quality of work that comes out of the western world very very high. I am not kissing ass here but would really like to know what sort of mentality and drive makes that happen. What would you suggest as to some of us getting to the same level? What do you do that you think is fundamentally different from the way that we think and do things? What is the edge that you guys have over us?
I think enthousiasm and pride are the main drivers here. Not only do I like my job (writing code), I also like to learn and apply new techniques. I talk with my friends about the work that we do, on solutions that we implemented, and on how we got there.
I share code snippets with them, or tell a bit about the system's architecture. I aim to deliver something that I want to share with my friends, something which I can be proud of.
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I think enthousiasm and pride are the main drivers here. Not only do I like my job (writing code), I also like to learn and apply new techniques.
People who talk shit like this get outlawed out here. Outlawed is a bit mellow, they get fucking quarantined.
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anyone gets with 5 years of development with programming language "X" is a senior for them
Omg!! Is this the situation everywhere?
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No here - I've been "senior" since I graduated from the university. Some of those early "senior" solutions were....interesting.
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What is the edge that you guys have over us?
One big one, or so I have been told, is that Indian education[1] is very much based on rote learning and "think for yourself" isn't emphasized. Given how much of programming involves doing just that, or rather, figuring out exactly how to do something, I think you guys might be starting out at a disadvantage.
[1] This is hardly unique to India; Feynman wrote about seeing it in Brazil decades ago, just as one other example.
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Who wants to work and pay his ass for a MIT-like degree, if the work available is flipping CRUDs?
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Who wants to work and pay his ass for a MIT-like degree
That's not the point. Also, you don't need to go to MIT.
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MIT.
?
I use them for my DNS registrar!
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There's also the difference between greed as in working hard and expecting quite a lot of money in return, and greed as in sabotaging the work for your personal profit, which of course doesn't really improve quality. That happens in the west as well - the subway construction collapse in Cologne, even though not form IT, is a nice example, I think. But as far as I know, such behavior is much less widespread here.
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The most pertinent thing about the Melbourne Institute of Technology is its GPS coordinates.
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Unfortunately, I've found that to be fairly common in my local schools too. Fortunately for us though, I think the workplace itself encourages the outside-the-box thinking.
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See Also: Big Dig
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You outsource shit to us.We outsource some shit to others,outsourcing all the way down..
I work in a company that doesn't oursource anything fortunately.
So you are ... You are at the very bottom of the Great Shithole of Outsourced Computer Programming? Cleaning up all the shit?
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[1] This is hardly unique to India; Feynman wrote about seeing it in Brazil decades ago, just as one other example.
I must admit that most of the ex-USSR and probably ex-socialist bloc is like this. I dumped college in Ukraine because it was shit; from what my peers in universities related, it's all the same: rote learning, Umbridgeesque professors, vanishing quantities of actual research, bureaucracy.
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In theory, the low cost outweighs the low quality, at least on the balance sheet, which is all most management of sufficiently high level to make that kind of decision cares about.
I know at least one European bank whose managers came to a different conclusion after outsourcing to India for a few years. The communication overhead alone cost them a lot of money. Their software is now mostly developed in Eastern Europe, where they have to pay a bit more, but get much better quality in return, and where you don't have to micro-manage every single developer. They probably won't outsource to anywhere outside Europe ever again.
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Eastern Europe
Yes, 'near-shore' seen it at several firms over here. Mostly to the Balkan area.
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At least they're not all dressed in pink, right?
Pink is a manly colour!
and a womanly colour!
and an ace colour!
and a hetero- colour!
and a homo- colour!
and a bi- colour!
and a pan- colour!
.... in fact it's a colour for anyone or anything that wants to wear it!
Pink is very inclusive like that.
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At least they're not all dressed in pink, right? Right?
I bet some are. But you know, it wasn't all about Umbridge... Especially with regard to "teaching" "methods".
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I know at least one European bank whose managers came to a different conclusion
The world, or at least the high-tech corporate world, will be a better place when more managers realize that.
Their software is now mostly developed in Eastern Europe
I almost forgot we also had an off-shore office in a former Eastern-Bloc country. I vaguely remember at least one occasion of hearing a complaint about their quality and/or productivity, but I never had to deal directly with them, and I don't remember the nature of the issue. My impression is better overall than the India office, but they did entirely different things, so hard to compare them.
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@asdf said:
I know at least one European bank whose managers came to a different conclusion
The world, or at least the high-tech corporate world, will be a better place when more managers realize that.
Their software is now mostly developed in Eastern Europe
I almost forgot we also had an off-shore office in a former Eastern-Bloc country. I vaguely remember at least one occasion of hearing a complaint about their quality and/or productivity, but I never had to deal directly with them, and I don't remember the nature of the issue. My impression is better overall than the India office, but they did entirely different things, so hard to compare them.Aye - and if people stop outsourcing to India and places like that, they might actually change and improve, which will make @stillwater's life better. Right now they make utter shit because they can.
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That's crazy talk, taking business away from there will make their lives worse. Even sweatshops are a net positive
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I vaguely remember at least one occasion of hearing a complaint about their quality and/or productivity
Well, you'll always hear complaints about the developers in other countries, no matter whether they're doing a decent job or not, simply because it's easy to blame them.
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क्या तुम हिंदी जानते हो? कितनी फिल्म देखी आज तक ?
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14 posts were merged into an existing topic: Bad translator is bad?
The translator bot is not meant for serious translation. Please don't summon it into topics outside of the Bot Testing category.
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क्या तुम हिंदी जानते हो? कितनी फिल्म देखी आज तक ?
For everyone's benefit, the above translates to " Do you know Hindi? How many movies have you seen till today?"
Nagesh, Hindi is not every Indian's first language, so get out of here with this Hindi crap. And why would I keep a count of all the movies I've seen?
Weird.
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So you are ... You are at the very bottom of the Great Shithole of Outsourced Computer Programming? Cleaning up all the shit?
My Job description goes something like this, Yes.
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I see you've met Nagesh.
For those who haven't had that "pleasure" previously, Nagesh is either an utter moron who makes "the very bottom of the Great Shithole of Outsourced Computer Programming" look good, a very annoying troll, or both. Some people find him amusing; personally, I just find him the most annoying person on the site (and, as I'm sure you must realize, that's quite an accomplishment). Fortunately, he rarely blesses us with his presence any more.
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For those who haven't had that "pleasure" previously, Nagesh is either an utter moron who makes "the very bottom of the Great Shithole of Outsourced Computer Programming" look good, a very annoying troll, or both.
I find it impossible to mentally conjure up an Image of an Indian guy like this.
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Yup. And I know a Sikh whose "middle" name was Singh, only I gather it's not really a middle name the way we would think of it; more like an infix honorific/title?
All male Sikhs have the name Singh (lion).