Break the brakes
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Also, at least one person in this thread thinks that brakes are on the roof of the car or something.
I know it's not on the roof before someone points it out
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Pendantry accepted. Those brakes are not attached to the axles. ;)
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We need to stoke that flamewar again.
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I see that shit about turning all the time, and I do not agree with that one, in the slightest.
That's part of the purpose of the earlier linked articles:
@edmunds.com said:
Braking distances and handling will be the same as with the 2WD vehicle.
@4x4abc.com said:4WD is not involved in the steering part of driving.
@wheels.ca said:AWD or 4WD will not help a vehicle turn (steer) with more traction.
@popularmechanics.com said:It's disingenuous to say or infer that AWD enhances cornering prowess, or that it'll help a driver avoid a fallen tree or dodge Bambi. When it comes to handling, all-wheel drive is overrated (not to mention heavy and gas-sucking), especially in foul weather.
"I'd rather have a Camry on four new snow tires than the best all-wheel-drive vehicle on all-season tires," said one tester who requested anonymity
@forbes.com said:It is important to note, however, that while 4WD helps you “go in the snow,” and may afford a bit of extra grip in low-traction situations over ice, it does little to aid a vehicle’s cornering abilities and virtually nothing for braking.
That's a lot of articles that blatantly disagree with you. Got any support for your position?
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Experience.
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Yes! Moar!
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Experience.
So if we discount your unverifiable personal anecdotal experience, you've got nothing.
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So if we discount your unverifiable personal anecdotal experience, you've got nothing.
Basically, but you are also not going to convince me otherwise when I have personally experienced conditions to the contrary of what Edmund's says.
In most driving will 4WD make a difference in turning? Probably not.
Are there conditions where it does? In my experience, absolutely. For instance, rutted snow.
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4WD make a difference in turning ... rutted snow
That's still not 4WD helping you brake. It's a special case of 4WD helping you get moving forward in the direction you want to go.
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That's still not 4WD helping you brake. It's a special case of 4WD helping you get moving forward in the direction you want to go.
Please do try to keep up son:
I see that shit about turning all the time, and I do not agree with that one, in the slightest. Ever seen a RWD car stuck in a parking lot going straight backwards and forwards despite turning their wheels every which way? I have. I have driven around them, in a wide arc, to get to my parking spot, able to maneuver as such because my front wheels are pulling. My 4WD is also a hell of a lot less "tail-happy" than FWD vehicles that I have driven that could have possibly done better in aforementioned parking lot scenario.
TL;DR, if your front wheels aren't pulling, you aren't steering.
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4WD doesn't help with turning when you're driving at speed. It actually hurts because it forces some wheels to lose traction.
If you're driving really slowly and trying to get out of a rut, then yes. 4WD helps. If you call that "turning", it's a very specific kind of turning.
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4WD doesn't help with turning when you're driving at speed. It actually hurts because it forces some wheels to lose traction.
Fine, you fuckers go get Yugos with snow tires. I really don't care.
I have even stated that FWD cars are probably safer in the snow because you will get stuck and it is hard to get in an accident when you cannot leave your garage. What more do you want from me?
If you're driving really slowly and trying to get out of a rut, then yes. 4WD helps. If you call that "turning", it's a very specific kind of turning.
So, it helps with turning?
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Subarus and some Jeeps really stood out as winter performers.
As a Canadian driving a Subaru, I strongly agree with that.In all cases, poor snow vehicles with snow tires outperformed good snow vehicles with all-season tires
In every case, all-season tires are good at exactly nothing.
When designing a tire, you can maximize its performance on dry, wet, ice or snow.
When designing a summer tire, you maximize it for dry and wet.
When designing a winter tire, you maximize it for ice and snow.
When designing an all-season tire, you have to compromise on everything.
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When designing a tire, you can maximize its performance on dry, wet, ice or snow.When designing a summer tire, you maximize it for dry and wet.When designing a winter tire, you maximize it for ice and snow.When designing an all-season tire, you have to compromise on everything.
What about all-terrain?
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In every case, all-season tires are good at exactly nothing.
Decent all-season tyres are good at everything but they're brilliant at nothing.
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@anotherusername said:
If you're driving really slowly and trying to get out of a rut, then yes. 4WD helps. If you call that "turning", it's a very specific kind of turning.
So, it helps with turning?
If you're driving really slowly and trying to get out of a rut. Otherwise, it hinders with turning.
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If you're driving really slowly and trying to get out of a rut. Otherwise, it hinders with turning.
But it helps with turning?
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I guess more to the point, would you agree or disagree with this statement?
4WD is not involved in the steering part of driving.
AWD or 4WD will not help a vehicle turn (steer) with more traction.
If you encounter rutted snow, like we have on roads, would you consider these statements to be false or accurate?
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@anotherusername said:
If you're driving really slowly and trying to get out of a rut. Otherwise, it hinders with turning.
But it helps with turning?
In the same sense that iocane powder is harmless because you met a guy once who was immune to it. It might get you out of a tough spot someday, and you'll be okay if you go really slow, or else it'll hurt you.
I guess more to the point, would you agree or disagree with this statement?
4WD is not involved in the steering part of driving.
AWD or 4WD will not help a vehicle turn (steer) with more traction.
If you encounter rutted snow, like we have on roads, would you consider these statements to be false or accurate?
Accurate. "Steering" and "driving" imply that you're moving at a typical rate of speed and 4WD will make your vehicle handle worse than a 2WD vehicle for the same turn at the same speed, unless you slow down a whole lot first. But someone with "4WD makes me steer more betterer in snow" firmly lodged between his ears is not going to slow down. Slowing down for curves in the road is for people whose cars can't drive more betterer in the snow.
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But someone with "4WD makes me steer more betterer" firmly lodged between his ears is not going to slow down. Slowing down is for people whose cars don't drive more betterer in the snow.
I encounter those assholes also, but I am not one. I usually have a toddler (and now an infant) in the back seat when driving on snow. I feel safer in an SUV with 4WD as I drive past the FWD cars that are hung up or stuck on turns, or can't get out of their garage, or slide off in to ditches.
No worries. You think you are right. I know I am. I care fuck-all about Edmund's anecdotal evidence of tests done on packed snow or plowed streets.
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Wait! I think I found the disconnect. You assholes think that I lock the diffs in October and then unlock them in April. Honestly, this is the only assumption I can think of as to why you think you are correct.
Or you think I live in Atlanta, where 1/8" of flurries shut down the city.
There is something here that is making you two so foolishly wrong on this.
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I encounter those assholes also, but I am not one.
You sure sound like one, with your
But it helps with turning?
When all you're talking about is it climbing out of ruts, after several people have described how, under normal driving conditions, it actually hurts with turning.
Knowing how to drive in the snow helps with turning, and that means, whether you have 2WD or 4WD, you slow down. Then, after you slow down, 4WD can help you not get stuck in any ruts. That's pretty much what it is good for.
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Then, after you slow down, 4WD can help you not get stuck in any ruts. That's pretty much what it is good for.
And turning.
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When you're turning, 4WD means you have to slow down even more than normal to avoid skidding.
So yeah, if making you skid more easily unless you slow down === helping, according to you.
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When you're turning, 4WD means you have to slow down even more than normal to avoid skidding.
Not in my experience, not in relation to 2WD vehicles. I can drive a little more quickly than they can, and I can certainly turn better when it comes to rutted snow.
On plowed streets, it is a wash as I would be 2WD also.
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Anyway, deep ruts in snow shouldn't even be a very common problem when you're driving. Do they not plow where you live? If you live in any sort of city at all and they leave deep snowy ruts on the regularly-traveled streets, then your city really sucks.
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So all-season are good but not brilliant? Like I said?
Both of those cars made it round the corner, and both set off and stopped with minimal fuss.No where did I say that winter tyres weren't better. All that video proves is they are. I know that.
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@TimeBandit posted a video demonstrating something that helps you turn faster without skidding. 4WD does the opposite of that: you have to turn slower to avoid skidding.
It does mean you can drive a little faster when you're going straight, but not on turns.
That said, you're definitely better equipped to get out of the rut you create if you do skid.
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Yeah, I'm not overly concerned about my tires. The main takeaway from that video is what I already knew: slow down, don't try to do too much, drive cautiously, and leave plenty of stopping distance.
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@anotherusername said:
So if we discount your unverifiable personal anecdotal experience, you've got nothing.
Basically, but you are also not going to convince me otherwise when I have personally experienced conditions to the contrary of what Edmund's says.
Will you go to a chiropractor after your brakes fail?
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You're omniscient, you tell me. ;)
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Decent all-season tyres are
goodBrilliant™ at everything but they'rebrilliantgood at nothing.FTFY
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Will you go to a chiropractor after your brakes fail?
BTW, thanks for that. Been a crappy day and that made me grin. :)
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Both of those cars made it round the corner
Watch that video again. At 25 MPH (~40 KPH) the all-season tires equipped car couldn't turn.50% more length to brake is A LOT when you need to stop.
Being capable of steering the car is also an important part.
Combine those two factor when something comes up in front of you and you want to avoid it, and you have almost no chance of avoiding an accident.
All-season tires can turn into four round black rocks when the cold hits. Even on dry pavement, at a balmy 5˚ C, a severe snow-rated tire outperforms an all-season tire.
A study by Quebec Ministry of Transport showed that a proper winter tire can improve collision avoidance by about 38% over all-season tires.
My family's security is too important to drive on all-seasons in the winter.
You can read more here : http://www.caamagazine.ca/auto/the-benefits-of-winter-tires/
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Watch that video again. At 25 MPH (~40 KPH) the all-season tires equipped car couldn't turn.
I've just seen it go around the corner! Unless the sound (which I haven't got at work) suggests another reason for that?
50% more length to brake is A LOT when you need to stop.
Being capable of steering the car is also an important part.
Combine those two factor when something comes up in front of you and you want to avoid it, and you have almost no chance of avoiding an accident.
You're trying to convince me that winter tyres are better than all-season tyres in the winter. No shit. I know that, and I didn't say otherwise.
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I've just seen it go around the corner! Unless the sound (which I haven't got at work) suggests another reason for that?
At 25 MPH (40 KPH) the black car (winter-tire equipped) turned without problem, while the grey car (all-season) is sliding in the ditch.
B.t.w. both cars have dynamic stability control systems.
Some stats to prove how MUCH more effective winter-tires are :
Germany made winter tires mandatory in 2008.
In 2005, there were 12,539 personal-injury collisions. In 2008, there were just 6,033.You're trying to convince me that winter tyres are better than all-season tyres in the winter.
No, I'm showing you how much winter tires are way much better than all-season.
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If you encounter rutted snow, like we have on roads, would you consider these statements to be false or accurate?
Doesn't matter. The ruts don't run into the ditch - so getting out of a rut is a convenience thing - maybe you'll have to drive to the next corner and turn around if you don't have 4WD. However, when it comes to real safety situations, like emergency stopping and avoidance maneuvers, 4WD does nothing.
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The ruts don't run into the ditch
Unless, of course, the ruts were left there by a driver who thought his 4WD vehicle would stop and turn better in snow and ice than your puny 2WD car.
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It does matter. You said categorically that 4WD does nothing to help turning.
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Are you trying to win the battle, but lose the war?
I'm not responding to any of your pedantry... if you really believe that 4WD is a safety feature, own up to it and stop saying "4WD is a sunk cost, and perfectly adequate". Your attempts to find some minor fault with the words of everyone else's posts does not count as civilized discussion. Fuck off or address the main points.
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Your attempts to find some minor fault with the words of everyone else's posts does not count as civilized discussion. Fuck off or address the main points.
QFT
Also, according to Discologic, it does still count as Discourse.
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Anyway, deep ruts in snow shouldn't even be a very common problem when you're driving.
Sure, if your local government can be trusted to do their jobs, and you live in a populated area. For lots of people, those conditions cannot be satisfied.
Do they not plow where you live?
Well, that depends on your definition of "plow". Main roads and arteries, and especially interstates, they do a pretty good job most of the time. I have a 1-2 mile drive to any of those from my house. Once I get there, smooth sailing, most of the time.
If you live in any sort of city at all and they leave deep snowy ruts on the regularly-traveled streets, then your city really sucks.
Well, I certainly won't argue pendantry on that point.
Our city is >1M in population, I live 15 minutes from the exact center of our downtown area, I would say that the job they do in my neighborhood and area is usually pretty abysmal.
More than that, ~4 years ago we had 12" of snow in an ~8 hour period and they didn't plow a fucking thing except the interstates. The reason the local government gave was that it was early in the season and they did not want to spend all of their plowing budget on the first snowfall of the season.
You know what? Tough shit. You plow the fucking roads anyway and if the budget runs out you beg, borrow or steal it from somewhere else. That winter was a fucking travesty. The snow got packed down and the plow trucks were not able to clear it because there was no salt put down. It ended up getting rutted, re-freezing. Potholes formed in the ice and then re-froze. Major artery surface streets that were 3 lanes each direction with a turn lane in the middle were down to 1-2 lanes in each direction.
It was a clusterfuck. But hey, we still need groceries, the baby still needs formula and I still had clients that needed served even if everyone was working from home and hammering the VPN connection.
Not one accident that winter, and my tires were fairly worn at that point. Not bald, but they had a few years on them. Just normal A/T tires on a 4WD GX470. Nothing special really, but it is undented and unditched, despite people in this thread saying that I am already dead due to a fiery crash that never happened because I don't have snow tires. Through that whole shitty episode of local history I picked up groceries for my family and immediate neighbors and I never felt like I couldn't drive somewhere if I needed to.
I also grew up in a very rural area. In that case it was ~20 miles to a major road. Maybe more, maybe less, time makes memory foggy. Everyone had a 4WD, because you either had one or you didn't go anywhere when it snowed. Literally. They don't plow roads that 2 houses are on. You did that yourself.
But there is one point in this thread that is absolutely true, it matters more who is driving than what they are driving. Every time I head out in winter weather, my wife always tells me to be safe. My reply is always, "I will be fine driving, it is the other drivers that I worry about." I think a large part of that comes from doing stupid shit in cars when I was too young to know any better. If you wait until an emergency to learn what a vehicle feels like when it lets go, that is too late.
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if you really believe that 4WD is a safety feature, own up to it
I do. I also believe that 2WD cars are more safe, because you can't go anywhere when things get really bad. That is not the kind of safety that I want.
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Watch that video again. At 25 MPH (~40 KPH) the all-season tires equipped car couldn't turn.
What about all-terrain tires? I looked and couldn't find anything comparing snow tires to A/T tires.
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Some stats to prove how MUCH more effective winter-tires are : Germany made winter tires mandatory in 2008.In 2005, there were 12,539 personal-injury collisions. In 2008, there were just 6,033.
Could you provide a link to that? Were all of those collisions during winter months? For both samples? Or is that the whole year?
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Don't find anything either.
At least, all-terrain tires have threads deep enough to handle the snow. The downside is probably the compond is getting really hard in the cold since they are made (I guess) for summer usage.
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I might be buying snow tires that aren't snow tires. My tires last me ~2 years. So, soft plus deep tread basically equals a snow tire anyway.
