In other news today...
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@PleegWat said in In other news today...:
Apparently the US coast guard doesn't care what happens once the crew is rescued?
Of course not. They are rescuing the crew because they are in danger, and that means it's not possible to safely manipulate the vessel at that moment. If it stays afloat, it's the interest of the owner to try to salvage it.
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Gentleman arrested for using mice and hamsters to get free hotel rooms
Utah police say Ryan Sentelle State (37) scored free hotel rooms by releasing mice and hamsters in the room and then demanding a free room to compensate him for the…
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@dkf said in In other news today...:
[EDIT] Aww, they've tuned down the headline for online from the original “When Butt Lifts Go Bad…”
I like the URL though: unstoppable-rise-butt-lift-despite
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@Tsaukpaetra said in In other news today...:
Who is surprised?
Can be jeffed to the appropriate topic if necessary.
Edit: TFA in case you're not interested in being bombarded with continually loading ads like I was
Boy Scouts file for bankruptcy due to sex-abuse lawsuits
By DAVID CRARY, AP National Writer 14 mins ago
Drew Carey reacts to ex-fiancée Amie Harwick's death
Elon Musk has changed the game for the electric car
Barraged by hundreds of sex-abuse lawsuits, the Boy Scouts of America filed for bankruptcy protection Tuesday in hopes of working out a potentially mammoth victim compensation plan that will allow the hallowed, 110-year-old organization to carry on.
Shown is the Boys Scouts of America headquarters in Irving, Texas, Wednesday, Feb. 12, 2020. (AP Photo/LM Otero)
© AP Photo/LM Otero Shown is the Boys Scouts of America headquarters in Irving, Texas, Wednesday, Feb. 12, 2020. (AP Photo/LM Otero)
The Chapter 11 filing in federal bankruptcy court in Wilmington, Delaware, sets in motion what could be one of the biggest, most complex bankruptcies ever seen. Scores of lawyers are seeking settlements on behalf of several thousand men who say they were molested as scouts by scoutmasters or other leaders decades ago but are only now eligible to sue because of recent changes in their states’ statute-of-limitations laws.
By going to bankruptcy court, the Scouts can put those lawsuits on hold for now. But ultimately they could be forced to sell off some of their vast property holdings, including campgrounds and hiking trails, to raise money for a compensation fund that could surpass a billion dollars.
“Scouting programs will continue throughout this process and for many years to come," said Evan Roberts, a spokesman for the Scouts. ”Local councils are not filing for bankruptcy because they are legally separate and distinct organizations.""
The Boy Scouts are just the latest major American institution to face a heavy price over sexual abuse. Roman Catholic dioceses across the country and schools such as Penn State and Michigan State have paid out hundreds of millions of dollars in recent years.
The bankruptcy represents a painful turn for an organization that has been a pillar of American civic life for generations and a training ground for future leaders. Achieving the rank of Eagle Scout has long been a proud accomplishment that politicians, business leaders, astronauts and others put on their resumes and in their official biographies.
The Boy Scouts’ finances have been strained in recent years by declining membership and sex-abuse settlements.
The number of youths taking part in scouting has dropped below 2 million, down from more than 4 million in peak years of the 1970s. The organization has tried to counter the decline by admitting girls, but its membership rolls took a big hit Jan. 1 when The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints — for decades a major sponsor of Boy Scout units — cut ties and withdrew more than 400,000 scouts in favor of programs of its own.
The financial outlook had worsened last year after New York, Arizona, New Jersey and California passed laws making it easier for victims of long-ago abuse to file claims. Teams of lawyers across the U.S. have been signing up clients by the hundreds to sue the Boy Scouts.
Most of the newly surfacing cases date to the 1960s, '70s and '80s; the organization says there were only five known abuse victims in 2018. The Boy Scouts credit the change to an array of prevention policies adopted since the mid-1980s, including mandatory criminal background checks and abuse-prevention training for all staff and volunteers, and a rule that two or more adult leaders be present during all activities.
In many ways, the crisis parallels the one facing the Catholic Church in the U.S. Both institutions boast of major progress over recent decades in combating abuse. whether by priests or scout leaders, but both face many lawsuits alleging negligence and cover-ups, mostly decades ago.
Among the matters to be addressed in bankruptcy court: the fate of the Boy Scouts’ assets; the extent to which the organization’s insurance will help cover compensation; and whether assets of the Scouts’ more than 260 local councils will be added to the fund.
“There are a lot of very angry, resentful men out there who will not allow the Boy Scouts to get away without saying what all their assets are,” said lawyer Paul Mones, who represents numerous clients suing the BSA. “They want no stone unturned.”
Amid the crush of lawsuits, the Scouts recently mortgaged the major properties owned by the national leadership, including the headquarters in Irving, Texas, and the 140,000-acre Philmont Ranch in New Mexico, to help secure a line of credit.
Founded in 1910, the Boy Scouts have kept confidential files since the 1920s listing staff and volunteers implicated in sexual abuse, for the avowed purpose of keeping predators away from youth. According to a court deposition, the files as of January listed 7,819 suspected abusers and 12,254 victims.
Until last spring, the organization had insisted it never knowingly allowed a predator to work with youths. But in May, The Associated Press reported that attorneys for abuse victims had identified multiple cases in which known predators were allowed to return to leadership posts. The next day, Boy Scouts chief executive Mike Surbaugh wrote to a congressional committee, acknowledging the group's previous claim was untrue.
James Kretschmer of Houston, among the many men suing for alleged abuse, says he was molested by a Scout leader over several months in the mid-1970s in the Spokane, Washington, area. Regarding the bankruptcy, he said, “It is a shame because at its core and what it was supposed to be, the Boy Scouts is a beautiful organization.”
“But you know, anything can be corrupted,” he added. “And if they're not going to protect the people that they've entrusted with the children, then shut it down and move on.”
Ahead of the Chapter 11 filing, lawyers said that because of the organization’s 50-state presence, as well as its ties to churches and civic groups that sponsor scout troops, a bankruptcy by the Boy Scouts would be unprecedented in its complexity. It would be national in scope, unlike the various Catholic Church bankruptcy cases, which have unfolded diocese by diocese.
"A Boy Scout bankruptcy would be bigger in scale than any other child abuse bankruptcy we’ve ever seen," said Seattle-based attorney Mike Pfau, whose firm is representing scores of men nationwide alleging they were abused as Boy Scouts.
Illustrating the depth of its problems, the organization in 2018 sued six of its insurers for refusing to cover its sex abuse liabilities. The insurers said their obligation was void because the Scouts refused to take effective preventive measures such as warning parents that boys might be abused.
I find this interesting:
effective preventive measures such as warning parents that boys might be abused.
I'm honestly curious about what they expected. "Hey, join the Boy Scouts, by the way, your kid might get fucked!"
No. In the past (like 40 years ago) they didn't have any sort of a "Youth Protection" regime like they do now. Most of the lawsuits are from decades old incidents. There are official policies designed to protect youth (and adults!) from problems and all adult volunteers need to take their Youth Protection Training at least every two years.
There's more to the training than this, but the main policy is that adults never have one on one contact with a youth (aside from one's own child) and that all events have at least two adults around.
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Opioid vending machine opens in Vancouver
MySafe scheme for addicts aims to help reduce overdose deaths in Canadian city
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@boomzilla said in In other news today...:
@Tsaukpaetra said in In other news today...:
Who is surprised?
Can be jeffed to the appropriate topic if necessary.
Edit: TFA in case you're not interested in being bombarded with continually loading ads like I was
Boy Scouts file for bankruptcy due to sex-abuse lawsuits
By DAVID CRARY, AP National Writer 14 mins ago
Drew Carey reacts to ex-fiancée Amie Harwick's death
Elon Musk has changed the game for the electric car
Barraged by hundreds of sex-abuse lawsuits, the Boy Scouts of America filed for bankruptcy protection Tuesday in hopes of working out a potentially mammoth victim compensation plan that will allow the hallowed, 110-year-old organization to carry on.
Shown is the Boys Scouts of America headquarters in Irving, Texas, Wednesday, Feb. 12, 2020. (AP Photo/LM Otero)
© AP Photo/LM Otero Shown is the Boys Scouts of America headquarters in Irving, Texas, Wednesday, Feb. 12, 2020. (AP Photo/LM Otero)
The Chapter 11 filing in federal bankruptcy court in Wilmington, Delaware, sets in motion what could be one of the biggest, most complex bankruptcies ever seen. Scores of lawyers are seeking settlements on behalf of several thousand men who say they were molested as scouts by scoutmasters or other leaders decades ago but are only now eligible to sue because of recent changes in their states’ statute-of-limitations laws.
By going to bankruptcy court, the Scouts can put those lawsuits on hold for now. But ultimately they could be forced to sell off some of their vast property holdings, including campgrounds and hiking trails, to raise money for a compensation fund that could surpass a billion dollars.
“Scouting programs will continue throughout this process and for many years to come," said Evan Roberts, a spokesman for the Scouts. ”Local councils are not filing for bankruptcy because they are legally separate and distinct organizations.""
The Boy Scouts are just the latest major American institution to face a heavy price over sexual abuse. Roman Catholic dioceses across the country and schools such as Penn State and Michigan State have paid out hundreds of millions of dollars in recent years.
The bankruptcy represents a painful turn for an organization that has been a pillar of American civic life for generations and a training ground for future leaders. Achieving the rank of Eagle Scout has long been a proud accomplishment that politicians, business leaders, astronauts and others put on their resumes and in their official biographies.
The Boy Scouts’ finances have been strained in recent years by declining membership and sex-abuse settlements.
The number of youths taking part in scouting has dropped below 2 million, down from more than 4 million in peak years of the 1970s. The organization has tried to counter the decline by admitting girls, but its membership rolls took a big hit Jan. 1 when The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints — for decades a major sponsor of Boy Scout units — cut ties and withdrew more than 400,000 scouts in favor of programs of its own.
The financial outlook had worsened last year after New York, Arizona, New Jersey and California passed laws making it easier for victims of long-ago abuse to file claims. Teams of lawyers across the U.S. have been signing up clients by the hundreds to sue the Boy Scouts.
Most of the newly surfacing cases date to the 1960s, '70s and '80s; the organization says there were only five known abuse victims in 2018. The Boy Scouts credit the change to an array of prevention policies adopted since the mid-1980s, including mandatory criminal background checks and abuse-prevention training for all staff and volunteers, and a rule that two or more adult leaders be present during all activities.
In many ways, the crisis parallels the one facing the Catholic Church in the U.S. Both institutions boast of major progress over recent decades in combating abuse. whether by priests or scout leaders, but both face many lawsuits alleging negligence and cover-ups, mostly decades ago.
Among the matters to be addressed in bankruptcy court: the fate of the Boy Scouts’ assets; the extent to which the organization’s insurance will help cover compensation; and whether assets of the Scouts’ more than 260 local councils will be added to the fund.
“There are a lot of very angry, resentful men out there who will not allow the Boy Scouts to get away without saying what all their assets are,” said lawyer Paul Mones, who represents numerous clients suing the BSA. “They want no stone unturned.”
Amid the crush of lawsuits, the Scouts recently mortgaged the major properties owned by the national leadership, including the headquarters in Irving, Texas, and the 140,000-acre Philmont Ranch in New Mexico, to help secure a line of credit.
Founded in 1910, the Boy Scouts have kept confidential files since the 1920s listing staff and volunteers implicated in sexual abuse, for the avowed purpose of keeping predators away from youth. According to a court deposition, the files as of January listed 7,819 suspected abusers and 12,254 victims.
Until last spring, the organization had insisted it never knowingly allowed a predator to work with youths. But in May, The Associated Press reported that attorneys for abuse victims had identified multiple cases in which known predators were allowed to return to leadership posts. The next day, Boy Scouts chief executive Mike Surbaugh wrote to a congressional committee, acknowledging the group's previous claim was untrue.
James Kretschmer of Houston, among the many men suing for alleged abuse, says he was molested by a Scout leader over several months in the mid-1970s in the Spokane, Washington, area. Regarding the bankruptcy, he said, “It is a shame because at its core and what it was supposed to be, the Boy Scouts is a beautiful organization.”
“But you know, anything can be corrupted,” he added. “And if they're not going to protect the people that they've entrusted with the children, then shut it down and move on.”
Ahead of the Chapter 11 filing, lawyers said that because of the organization’s 50-state presence, as well as its ties to churches and civic groups that sponsor scout troops, a bankruptcy by the Boy Scouts would be unprecedented in its complexity. It would be national in scope, unlike the various Catholic Church bankruptcy cases, which have unfolded diocese by diocese.
"A Boy Scout bankruptcy would be bigger in scale than any other child abuse bankruptcy we’ve ever seen," said Seattle-based attorney Mike Pfau, whose firm is representing scores of men nationwide alleging they were abused as Boy Scouts.
Illustrating the depth of its problems, the organization in 2018 sued six of its insurers for refusing to cover its sex abuse liabilities. The insurers said their obligation was void because the Scouts refused to take effective preventive measures such as warning parents that boys might be abused.
I find this interesting:
effective preventive measures such as warning parents that boys might be abused.
I'm honestly curious about what they expected. "Hey, join the Boy Scouts, by the way, your kid might get fucked!"
No. In the past (like 40 years ago) they didn't have any sort of a "Youth Protection" regime like they do now. Most of the lawsuits are from decades old incidents. There are official policies designed to protect youth (and adults!) from problems and all adult volunteers need to take their Youth Protection Training at least every two years.
There's more to the training than this, but the main policy is that adults never have one on one contact with a youth (aside from one's own child) and that all events have at least two adults around.
Was this ever much of a problem? (I haven't followed any coverage of that)
I thought if you want to have your child molested you'd send them to catholic school instead.
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@topspin said in In other news today...:
@boomzilla said in In other news today...:
@Tsaukpaetra said in In other news today...:
Who is surprised?
Can be jeffed to the appropriate topic if necessary.
Edit: TFA in case you're not interested in being bombarded with continually loading ads like I was
Boy Scouts file for bankruptcy due to sex-abuse lawsuits
By DAVID CRARY, AP National Writer 14 mins ago
Drew Carey reacts to ex-fiancée Amie Harwick's death
Elon Musk has changed the game for the electric car
Barraged by hundreds of sex-abuse lawsuits, the Boy Scouts of America filed for bankruptcy protection Tuesday in hopes of working out a potentially mammoth victim compensation plan that will allow the hallowed, 110-year-old organization to carry on.
Shown is the Boys Scouts of America headquarters in Irving, Texas, Wednesday, Feb. 12, 2020. (AP Photo/LM Otero)
© AP Photo/LM Otero Shown is the Boys Scouts of America headquarters in Irving, Texas, Wednesday, Feb. 12, 2020. (AP Photo/LM Otero)
The Chapter 11 filing in federal bankruptcy court in Wilmington, Delaware, sets in motion what could be one of the biggest, most complex bankruptcies ever seen. Scores of lawyers are seeking settlements on behalf of several thousand men who say they were molested as scouts by scoutmasters or other leaders decades ago but are only now eligible to sue because of recent changes in their states’ statute-of-limitations laws.
By going to bankruptcy court, the Scouts can put those lawsuits on hold for now. But ultimately they could be forced to sell off some of their vast property holdings, including campgrounds and hiking trails, to raise money for a compensation fund that could surpass a billion dollars.
“Scouting programs will continue throughout this process and for many years to come," said Evan Roberts, a spokesman for the Scouts. ”Local councils are not filing for bankruptcy because they are legally separate and distinct organizations.""
The Boy Scouts are just the latest major American institution to face a heavy price over sexual abuse. Roman Catholic dioceses across the country and schools such as Penn State and Michigan State have paid out hundreds of millions of dollars in recent years.
The bankruptcy represents a painful turn for an organization that has been a pillar of American civic life for generations and a training ground for future leaders. Achieving the rank of Eagle Scout has long been a proud accomplishment that politicians, business leaders, astronauts and others put on their resumes and in their official biographies.
The Boy Scouts’ finances have been strained in recent years by declining membership and sex-abuse settlements.
The number of youths taking part in scouting has dropped below 2 million, down from more than 4 million in peak years of the 1970s. The organization has tried to counter the decline by admitting girls, but its membership rolls took a big hit Jan. 1 when The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints — for decades a major sponsor of Boy Scout units — cut ties and withdrew more than 400,000 scouts in favor of programs of its own.
The financial outlook had worsened last year after New York, Arizona, New Jersey and California passed laws making it easier for victims of long-ago abuse to file claims. Teams of lawyers across the U.S. have been signing up clients by the hundreds to sue the Boy Scouts.
Most of the newly surfacing cases date to the 1960s, '70s and '80s; the organization says there were only five known abuse victims in 2018. The Boy Scouts credit the change to an array of prevention policies adopted since the mid-1980s, including mandatory criminal background checks and abuse-prevention training for all staff and volunteers, and a rule that two or more adult leaders be present during all activities.
In many ways, the crisis parallels the one facing the Catholic Church in the U.S. Both institutions boast of major progress over recent decades in combating abuse. whether by priests or scout leaders, but both face many lawsuits alleging negligence and cover-ups, mostly decades ago.
Among the matters to be addressed in bankruptcy court: the fate of the Boy Scouts’ assets; the extent to which the organization’s insurance will help cover compensation; and whether assets of the Scouts’ more than 260 local councils will be added to the fund.
“There are a lot of very angry, resentful men out there who will not allow the Boy Scouts to get away without saying what all their assets are,” said lawyer Paul Mones, who represents numerous clients suing the BSA. “They want no stone unturned.”
Amid the crush of lawsuits, the Scouts recently mortgaged the major properties owned by the national leadership, including the headquarters in Irving, Texas, and the 140,000-acre Philmont Ranch in New Mexico, to help secure a line of credit.
Founded in 1910, the Boy Scouts have kept confidential files since the 1920s listing staff and volunteers implicated in sexual abuse, for the avowed purpose of keeping predators away from youth. According to a court deposition, the files as of January listed 7,819 suspected abusers and 12,254 victims.
Until last spring, the organization had insisted it never knowingly allowed a predator to work with youths. But in May, The Associated Press reported that attorneys for abuse victims had identified multiple cases in which known predators were allowed to return to leadership posts. The next day, Boy Scouts chief executive Mike Surbaugh wrote to a congressional committee, acknowledging the group's previous claim was untrue.
James Kretschmer of Houston, among the many men suing for alleged abuse, says he was molested by a Scout leader over several months in the mid-1970s in the Spokane, Washington, area. Regarding the bankruptcy, he said, “It is a shame because at its core and what it was supposed to be, the Boy Scouts is a beautiful organization.”
“But you know, anything can be corrupted,” he added. “And if they're not going to protect the people that they've entrusted with the children, then shut it down and move on.”
Ahead of the Chapter 11 filing, lawyers said that because of the organization’s 50-state presence, as well as its ties to churches and civic groups that sponsor scout troops, a bankruptcy by the Boy Scouts would be unprecedented in its complexity. It would be national in scope, unlike the various Catholic Church bankruptcy cases, which have unfolded diocese by diocese.
"A Boy Scout bankruptcy would be bigger in scale than any other child abuse bankruptcy we’ve ever seen," said Seattle-based attorney Mike Pfau, whose firm is representing scores of men nationwide alleging they were abused as Boy Scouts.
Illustrating the depth of its problems, the organization in 2018 sued six of its insurers for refusing to cover its sex abuse liabilities. The insurers said their obligation was void because the Scouts refused to take effective preventive measures such as warning parents that boys might be abused.
I find this interesting:
effective preventive measures such as warning parents that boys might be abused.
I'm honestly curious about what they expected. "Hey, join the Boy Scouts, by the way, your kid might get fucked!"
No. In the past (like 40 years ago) they didn't have any sort of a "Youth Protection" regime like they do now. Most of the lawsuits are from decades old incidents. There are official policies designed to protect youth (and adults!) from problems and all adult volunteers need to take their Youth Protection Training at least every two years.
There's more to the training than this, but the main policy is that adults never have one on one contact with a youth (aside from one's own child) and that all events have at least two adults around.
Was this ever much of a problem? (I haven't followed any coverage of that)
The lawsuits being filed say yes. A bunch of states changed their statute of limitations on sexual abuse recently.
I thought if you want to have your child molested you'd send them to catholic school instead.
I was never a Scout as a kid, though I was almost an altar boy (we moved right before I would have started, and didn't get involved with a church when we moved).
One thing I find interesting about this is how the national organization is taking on the suits. So, individual units are legally part of their chartering organization (a local church, school PTA or other civic organization). Of course, most individual churches have no money, likewise PTAs (though maybe you could sue the municipality that runs the school) or your local Elks Lodge. But of course, the national org sets the policy and the program, so I guess they could be sued for negligence.
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@boomzilla said in In other news today...:
I was never a Scout as a kid,
My son is, though, and I'm the Committee Chair for his troop, so I get official emails about this stuff. In one, they linked a site they put up regarding what they're doing:
Homepage - Boy Scouts of America
The Boy Scouts of America has officially exited bankruptcy, fulfilling our dual imperatives of equitably compensating abuse survivors and ensuring the future of Scouting. Read more here. The Boy Scouts of America (BSA) Announces Confirmation of Plan of Reorganization and Emergence from Chapter 11...
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@boomzilla said in In other news today...:
A bunch of states changed their statute of limitations on sexual abuse recently.
Doesn't that count as retroactive change? I mean, the deeds were obviously criminal back then already, but any deed shall be judged based on laws in effect at the time of that deed and those would still include the old statute of limtiations.
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@Bulb said in In other news today...:
@boomzilla said in In other news today...:
A bunch of states changed their statute of limitations on sexual abuse recently.
Doesn't that count as retroactive change? I mean, the deeds were obviously criminal back then already, but any deed shall be judged based on laws in effect at the time of that deed and those would still include the old statute of limtiations.
These are civil suits. IANAL but I assume it's all hunky dory legally.
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… and even if not (I still think it is and the only reasonable course of action is to dismiss the cases), one still shouldn't hold an organization responsible for not having standards 40 years ago that only became standards 20 or more years later. So if the lawsuits are not dismissed, they should affect the specific perpetrators, but not the organization.
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@Bulb said in In other news today...:
@boomzilla said in In other news today...:
A bunch of states changed their statute of limitations on sexual abuse recently.
Doesn't that count as retroactive change? I mean, the deeds were obviously criminal back then already, but any deed shall be judged based on laws in effect at the time of that deed and those would still include the old statute of limtiations.
I'm not a lawyer, but in my naive interpretation of "nulla poena sine lege" (no punishment without law) that isn't covered. The crime has been committed, the law against it had been in effect. You're just changing the length after which it will no longer be prosecuted.
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@boomzilla said in In other news today...:
These are civil suits. IANAL but I assume it's all hunky dory legally.
IANALE, but I don't think it should make a difference whether it is a civil or criminal suit. But then, American law is sometimes weird to me, who is more used to the continental law.
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@Bulb said in In other news today...:
but not the organization.
these are civil cases where the claim is that the organisation did not handle those original case correctly or protected the perpetrator. Or something similar along those lines.
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@Luhmann … which is exactly where it should depend on 1. at least a complaint having been filed against the organization back when it happened and 2. the organization having mishandled it even given standards of the time. Which I somehow doubt was the case.
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@Bulb said in In other news today...:
I don't think it should make a difference whether it is a civil or criminal suit.
There is a big difference between civil and criminal laws, their proceedings, evidence and punishment can really differ ... in a civil case someone, somewhere feels wronged and starts a court case. There generally are a few, but not many, limitations and barriers to jump. It's a way to end a discussion between equals. The justice system decides and can award penalties to losing parties. This generally doesn't include prison sentence and such.
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@Bulb said in In other news today...:
a complaint having been filed against the organization back when it happened
this is a ridiculous and unmaintable requirement.
Forget about the current cases for a second ... Think about a different kind of civil case ... maybe I once hired someone to build a house. We draw up a contract, he does his work and I pay. Years down the line (10, 20 years later) I discover that he didn't do his work as stipulated by the contract. So according to you I can't take this to a civil court?
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@Luhmann Of course you can take the worker to a court, and if he really didn't do his work as contracted, you should win it. But this is like if you instead sued the site manager that he didn't notice it, because he didn't do some check that is now generally recommended, but no such recommendation existed back then. That case you should lose, because the site manager couldn't know back then, even though he would be expected to if it happened today.
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@Bulb said in In other news today...:
@Luhmann Of course you can take the worker to a court, and if he really didn't do his work as contracted, you should win it. But this is like if you instead sued the site manager that he didn't notice it, because he didn't do some check that is now generally recommended, but no such recommendation existed back then. That case you should lose, because the site manager couldn't know back then, even though he would be expected to if it happened today.
You sue whoever you contracted with to get the work done to spec. If a site manager was involved, that's probably a construction company and not a bunch of individual workers. If the company you contracted subcontracted part of the work, then you would not directly sue the subcontractor since you never had a direct business relation with them. If you contracted the site manager and the workers separate (which seems strange to me) then the liability is probably your own.
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This post is deleted!
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@PleegWat said in In other news today...:
If you contracted the site manager and the workers separate (which seems strange to me) then the liability is probably your own.
Maybe the proper term is different—should do something with “oversight”, because that's what they do—I obviously know the local rules in local language, not English.
Anyway, that's the standard, at least for large work—there is the building company and an independent site manager, who is only responsible for checking that the work is according to the building code.
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@Bulb said in In other news today...:
@Luhmann Of course you can take the worker to a court, and if he really didn't do his work as contracted, you should win it. But this is like if you instead sued the site manager that he didn't notice it, because he didn't do some check that is now generally recommended, but no such recommendation existed back then. That case you should lose, because the site manager couldn't know back then, even though he would be expected to if it happened today.
Well, pharmaceutical companies still get successfully sued even though their medications went through the government process for getting tested for safety and efficacy. I agree that this doesn't always make sense, but after all, the law is a ass.
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@boomzilla Yeah, but companies being liable for their product is a bit different than companies being liable for criminal acts their employees commit at work. The former is unlimited, intentionally, because somebody should have that liability, but the later is limited to the extent that either the criminal act is for the benefit of the company (e.g. bribery) or it is a known risk against which the company is expected to make precautions against that it fails to make.
And the point in the above is that now they are expected to take specific precautions, but a case from 40 years ago has to be judged based on rules back then, and if the rules were not in place back then.
Of course only the participants in the cases know the fine details that can make a huge difference.
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@Bulb said in In other news today...:
And the point in the above is that now they are expected to take specific precautions, but a case from 40 years ago has to be judged based on rules back then, and if the rules were not in place back then.
Except that's exactly opposite of my pharmaceutical example. Also, in this case, it's not like sexually abusing a minor was legal back then.
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@boomzilla Yes, it is opposite. Because in the pharmaceutical example it is liability for product working as advertised, which companies have always.
While in the scout case, it is responsibility for criminal behaviour of employees, which is normally limited. If a bartender shoots someone in the bar while on shift, is the owner liable? I think he won't be unless he new the barman had anger management issues and has caused rows in the past or something similar that makes him unsuitable for the job. If in America he will, then I find American law weird.
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@Bulb said in In other news today...:
@boomzilla Yes, it is opposite. Because in the pharmaceutical example it is liability for product working as advertised, which companies have always.
Like how Scouting is advertised as being good for boys to participate in?
While in the scout case, it is responsibility for criminal behaviour of employees, which is normally limited.
Not employees. Volunteers. There are very few paid employees in Scouting and even then they are not the ones interacting with youth the vast majority of the time.
If a bartender shoots someone in the bar while on shift, is the owner liable? I think he won't be unless he new the barman had anger management issues and has caused rows in the past or something similar that makes him unsuitable for the job. If in America he will, then I find American law weird.
All law is weird. The business could take it to a jury, who could ultimately decide. I suspect most of the Scouting cases won't go to trial though. I'd guess that BSA is interesting in settling out of court.
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Every few years this exact thing happens, and because the CRTC is not fit for purpose, results in jack shit:
CRTC says concerns about phone bills heard 'loud and clear'
The CRTC has begun its hearings on the state of mobile wireless services, and has addressed that cellphone bills are a concern.
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@boomzilla said in In other news today...:
@Bulb said in In other news today...:
And the point in the above is that now they are expected to take specific precautions, but a case from 40 years ago has to be judged based on rules back then, and if the rules were not in place back then.
Except that's exactly opposite of my pharmaceutical example. Also, in this case, it's not like sexually abusing a minor was legal back then.
Indeed. That's what it boils down to: The acts have always been illegal, it's only that an arbitrary time limit has changed. I mean, who could seriously make a case that a rape 10 years ago suddenly becomes okay when it becomes 11 years?
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@hungrier said in In other news today...:
Every few years this exact thing happens, and because the CRTC is not fit for purpose, results in jack shit:
CRTC says concerns about phone bills heard 'loud and clear'
The CRTC has begun its hearings on the state of mobile wireless services, and has addressed that cellphone bills are a concern.
I mean...not exactly jack shit, eh:
Mobile wireless rates decreased by an average of 28 percent between 2016 and 2018.
Having seen you quote prices, they're obviously still really high, of course.
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@Rhywden said in In other news today...:
@boomzilla said in In other news today...:
@Bulb said in In other news today...:
And the point in the above is that now they are expected to take specific precautions, but a case from 40 years ago has to be judged based on rules back then, and if the rules were not in place back then.
Except that's exactly opposite of my pharmaceutical example. Also, in this case, it's not like sexually abusing a minor was legal back then.
Indeed. That's what it boils down to: The acts have always been illegal, it's only that an arbitrary time limit has changed. I mean, who could seriously make a case that a rape 10 years ago suddenly becomes okay when it becomes 11 years?
Statutes of limitations don't say that.
Purpose[edit]
The purpose and effect of statutes of limitations are to protect defendants. There are three reasons for their enactment:[7]- A plaintiff with a valid cause of action should pursue it with reasonable diligence.
- By the time a stale claim is litigated, a defendant might have lost evidence necessary to disprove the claim.
- Litigation of a long-dormant claim may result in more cruelty than justice.
In Classical Athens, a five-year statute of limitations was established for all cases except homicide and the prosecution of non-constitutional laws (which had no limitation). Demosthenes wrote that these statutes of limitations were adopted to control "sycophants" (professional accusers).[8]
The limitation period generally begins when the plaintiff's cause of action accrues, meaning the date upon which the plaintiff is first able to maintain the cause of action in court, or when the plaintiff first becomes aware of a previous injury (for example, occupational lung diseases such as asbestosis).
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@antiquarian said in In other news today...:
@acrow said in In other news today...:
Charities and churches are limited in their resources.
Government is also limited in resources. Having government pay for education and health care without finding out why they get more expensive faster than the general inflation rates and fixing that just kicks the problem down the road.
We already know why, though. (And it's two very different answers for the two different industries you mentioned here.)
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@boomzilla Yes, but the cutoff-date is still arbitrary. And some of those counterarguments are very thorny issues - I mean, we all know that some of those incidents were (and still are) subject to widespread attempts to cover them up by various actors.
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@Rhywden said in In other news today...:
Yes, but the cutoff-date is still arbitrary.
Of course, and so always up for debate. I was just pointing out that "it's not wrong any more" wasn't what was happening there.
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@Luhmann said in In other news today...:
@Bulb said in In other news today...:
a complaint having been filed against the organization back when it happened
this is a ridiculous and unmaintable requirement.
Forget about the current cases for a second ... Think about a different kind of civil case ... maybe I once hired someone to build a house. We draw up a contract, he does his work and I pay. Years down the line (10, 20 years later) I discover that he didn't do his work as stipulated by the contract. So according to you I can't take this to a civil court?"Discover" as used here means "find evidence". That's the reason why we have statutes of limitations for things like this: 20 years later, there's no evidence to be found. It helps protect the innocent from being hauled into a kangaroo court.
Unfortunately, it does also help protect the guilty if they can keep their victims silent, but the solution to that is to educate people that it's important to speak out and to do so quickly, not to lower standards of evidence that exist for very good reasons.
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@boomzilla said in In other news today...:
@Rhywden said in In other news today...:
Yes, but the cutoff-date is still arbitrary.
Of course, and so always up for debate. I was just pointing out that "it's not wrong any more" wasn't what was happening there.
Yeah, that was a bit clumsily formulated. I was more talking about the end result for which the statue of limitations effectively means that the crime has not happened (as in, legal consequences).
Just like being found "Not guilty due to reasonable doubt" has the effect of legally not being guilty of a crime - even if there was considerable evidence.
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@Mason_Wheeler said in In other news today...:
Unfortunately, it does also help protect the guilty if they can keep their victims silent, but the solution to that is to educate people that it's important to speak out and to do so quickly, not to lower standards of evidence that exist for very good reasons.
And what do you do if there's a cultural and institutional movement to sweep it all under the rug? We've seen that several times now...
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@Rhywden said in In other news today...:
@Mason_Wheeler said in In other news today...:
Unfortunately, it does also help protect the guilty if they can keep their victims silent, but the solution to that is to educate people that it's important to speak out and to do so quickly, not to lower standards of evidence that exist for very good reasons.
And what do you do if there's a cultural and institutional movement to sweep it all under the rug? We've seen that several times now...
Then you go after that and tear it down, without instituting kangaroo courts in its place. Replacing one evil with a polar opposite evil doesn't actually reduce the total amount of evil in the system. (All too often it ends up increasing it instead!)
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Understand that we live in an imperfect world and fight against the injustice as best we can.
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@Mason_Wheeler Um, I wasn't aware that kangaroo courts were an option in the US?
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@Rhywden A trial based on accusations with no evidence, where the trial moves forward rather than being laughed out of court, is very much a kangaroo court.
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@Dragoon said in In other news today...:
Understand that we live in an imperfect world and fight against the injustice as best we can.
I do know that. Hence my confusion about the insistence on arbitrary numbers which may or may not make sense for the individual case.
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@Mason_Wheeler said in In other news today...:
@Rhywden A trial based on accusations with no evidence, where the trial moves forward rather than being laughed out of court, is very much a kangaroo court.
How do you know that there'll be no evidence?
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@Rhywden said in In other news today...:
@Mason_Wheeler Um, I wasn't aware that kangaroo courts were an option in the US?
Until recently they were fairly common in colleges. Generally not so much in courts that are part of the formal justice system.
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@Rhywden said in In other news today...:
@Mason_Wheeler said in In other news today...:
@Rhywden A trial based on accusations with no evidence, where the trial moves forward rather than being laughed out of court, is very much a kangaroo court.
How do you know that there'll be no evidence?
Because what evidence of sexual assault remains after 20 years? (Or even 1 year for that matter?)
It's not good, it's not just... but it's true, and there's not much anyone can do to alter the basic reality of that, so the best we can do is to not make it even worse.
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@Rhywden said in In other news today...:
@Dragoon said in In other news today...:
Understand that we live in an imperfect world and fight against the injustice as best we can.
I do know that. Hence my confusion about the insistence on arbitrary numbers which may or may not make sense for the individual case.
Because we set out that everyone is equal under the law. If we decide that a time limit on certain crimes should exist, that limit must apply to everyone.
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@boomzilla said in In other news today...:
Mobile wireless rates decreased by an average of 28 percent between 2016 and 2018.
It's a good thing they're declining...
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@boomzilla said in In other news today...:
@Rhywden said in In other news today...:
@Mason_Wheeler Um, I wasn't aware that kangaroo courts were an option in the US?
Until recently they were fairly common in colleges. Generally not so much in courts that are part of the formal justice system.
Yah, I read about those. An absolute sham.
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@boomzilla They may have declined on average (taking into account data-only plans or extremely low end text/call plans with limited minutes/texts) but as far as smartphone plans with data, the "decrease" is kind of like the "massive cut" that triggered the US government shutdown a few years ago
Women who risk disfigurement and death when butt lifts go bad
Statute of limitations - Wikipedia
