The Electrical Standards Wars - Don't Get Shocked
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I've taken a lot of shocks. In fact, enough that I should probably be ashamed of how many I've taken, except that I used to work on very early prototypes, and even worse, for the US Army. Most of my family are self taught appliance repair technicians, and predictably, have a similar story to tell.
Standard US residential won't kill you unless you already have a medical condition. Hell, I literally used a residential to wake myself up in the morning when deployed to areas where coffee was hard to come buy.
Even US 220 only hurts. (Sure, pun intended) normally. Yeah, even 110 "can" kill you, if you have cuts in the exact right places and it's applied across your heart, or you have a preexisting condition.
US electrical standards may kill a person from time to time, but I'm willing to bet our speed limits kill an order of magnitude more.
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I got separate notifications for the quote and the @mention. I thought I was only supposed to get one or the other.
I thought so, too.
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If you like electricity that way, check out this gadget, though it's quiite shocking.
Filed under: warranty void if used, might not be released yet, smells like bacon in here
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Hell, I literally used a residential to wake myself up in the morning when deployed to areas where coffee was hard to come buy.
And they said Crank: High Voltage wasn't a documentary.
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That cannot possibly be true.
It's not. High power devices (i.e., anything needing more than 3kW) will be wired directly to its own dedicated circuit, usually not via a plug but rather by being wired to screw terminals behind an insulating cover plate. The devices concerned (electrical cookers, etc.) are not exactly portable.
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It's not.
Natch.
High power devices (i.e., anything needing more than 3kW) will be wired directly to its own dedicated circuit, usually not via a plug but rather by being wired to screw terminals behind an insulating cover plate. The devices concerned (electrical cookers, etc.) are not exactly portable.
They're not exactly portable, but having a plug for those instead of requiring an electrician to hard-wire them would make it a heck of a lot easier for Joe Schmoe to buy and install a new electric stove. As easy as it is here in the vastly superior US.
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They're not exactly portable, but having a plug for those instead of requiring an electrician to hard-wire them would make it a heck of a lot easier for Joe Schmoe to buy and install a new electric stove. As easy as it is here in the vastly superior US.
It's usually fitted by the people delivering the stove to the property. But it's dead easy to do yourself as long as you're not stupid. Electricity's just lightly dangerous, not complicated, and isolating the circuit and opening it up is easy. It helps that I've got an electrician's screwdriver for detecting live wires.
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[quote="dkf, post:107, topic:50084]It helps that I've got an electrician's screwdriver for detecting live wires.
[/quote]
Ooh, are we bragging?
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Blah blah, point is in the US it's just plugging in a cord.
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Which also means it's simple to temporarily remove any appliance for a big project such as reflooring or replacing cabinets.
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electrician's screwdriver for detecting live wires
I've always hated the idea of those. I mean the plain insulated ones are OK but put an indicator on one and you are going "Let's train people to poke things with a screwdriver to see if the power is live!"
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I find it ironic that the fact that we have plugs for this was ridiculed a few posts up.... Meanwhile... Bare wires yay!
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We do 480V 3 phase for industrial; they're never1 used for households. Our household wiring is basically one side (120V/240V pair) of the delta (although I don't know if they actually feed the circuits from delta transformers; that's definitely not my line of work).
Not really -- when you do that, you wind up with 2 120V-to-neutral legs and a 208V-to-neutral-leg. Great way to trip up handymen who are dabbling in electrical work.
Also, most 3 phase is Wye service nowadays because with Wye, you can get serviceable single phase circuits from the 3phase supply without further ado. It's just that 208Y/120 isn't particularly kind on heating appliances such as ovens, dryers, water heaters, and electric furnaces that are wired for split phase power (many can handle it, and are nameplated as 208-240V as a result, but the results can be annoying all the same I hear...) You will see houses in A/C heavy climates (such as the Desert Southwest) that have 208Y/120 service as large single phase compressors weren't so available in the early days of air conditioning, though.
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Not really
Ah, I
standsit corrected. As I said, that's not my line of work; I'm more likely to deal with 1.2V than 120V. I took a very few classes about that sort of stuff in school mumble years ago, but my school separated electrical and electronic paths pretty early in the curriculum.
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Meanwhile... Bare wires yay!
They're not bare in normal use. The bare ends are behind a plate mounted in the wall. The cable that is exposed to normal activity (typically with enough spare length to allow movement of the appliance for cleaning) is in heavy insulation, more than is technically needed and quite enough to remind you that this is a high-power cable.
The key thing is that if you're doing anything on systems that aren't completely unplugged (and discharged, in case there are capacitors about) you need something so that you can tell whether either significant currents or significant voltages are present. Like that, you can know if you've shut off the correct circuit breaker before working on things. If you can't confirm it is safe, assume it isn't.
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If you can't confirm it is safe, assume it isn't.
Godzilla could smash you at any instant.
So do nothing at all. Ever.
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They're not bare in normal use. The bare ends are behind a plate mounted in the wall. The cable that is exposed to normal activity (typically with enough spare length to allow movement of the appliance for cleaning) is in heavy insulation, more than is technically needed and quite enough to remind you that this is a high-power cable.
Oh, ok. Want to refloor your kitchen or replace your cabinets?
UK:
- Turn off power to appliance.
- Pull out appliance.
- Remove cover plate.
- Unscrew appliance power leads.
- Put appliance somewhere out of the way.
- Finish project.
- Get appliance near appropriate location.
- Re-attach (screw) appliance power leads.
- Replace cover plate.
- Replace appliance.
- Turn on power to appliance.
US:
- Pull out appliance.
- Unplug appliance.
- Put appliance somewhere out of the way.
- Finish project.
- Get appliance near appropriate location.
- Plug in appliance.
- Replace appliance.
Hmmm …
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UK:1. Turn off power to appliance.2. Pull out appliance.3. Remove cover plate.4. Unscrew appliance power leads.5. Put appliance somewhere out of the way.6. Finish project.7. Get appliance near appropriate location.8. Re-attach (screw) appliance power leads.9. Replace cover plate.10. Replace appliance.11. Turn on power to appliance.
On mobile, can't fix the crappy quote...
Or, if stupidity is involved,
- Pull out appliance
- Remove cover plate
- Unscrew appliance leads
- Electrocute self
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Or, if stupidity is involved,
- Pull out appliance
- Remove cover plate
- Unscrew appliance leads
- Electrocute self
5. Sue government for crappy standards!
Oh wait, this is the UK we're talking about. That probably wouldn't work …
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Oh wait, this is the UK we're talking about. That probably wouldn't work …
It might or it might not, but the UK usually runs with Loser Pays Reasonable Expenses in court cases, so bringing ridiculous court cases is discouraged.
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Electrocute self
That's still not that likely. The metal box in the wall containing the terminals that the appliance is plugged into is earthed (that's in the electrical code) and the everything is still pretty well protected. And it will have its own circuit breaker and there's an isolation switch on the wall nearby (that's also in the electrical code).
Fucking up all of that requires deliberate long-term applied stupidity. That's not impossible, but takes it out of “the law should have stopped this” into “verdict: Death by
StupidityMisadventure”.
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If you like electricity that way, check out this gadget, though it's quiite shocking.
Is this the same guy who makes a glove that will take all the skin off your hand if donned?
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0.587 deaths in electrical fires per 1,000,000 people in the United States and about 0.14 deaths in electrical fires per 1,000,000 people in the United Kingdom. ... I feel safe in saying that these ratios are extremely close, and that your statement about the US having a higher rate of electrical fire deaths is wrong.
So the US has four times the population-adjusted rate of the UK and this is "extremely close", yet 44.6 and 44.92 are significantly different? WTF, dude. Get a sense of proportion.
Filed under: 0-60 in 0.000000004 centuries
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So the US has four times the population-adjusted rate of the UK and this is "extremely close", yet 44.6 and 44.92 are significantly different?
ProTip: Learn to differentiate between a serious discussion and a trolling one.Here are some clues about when I was trolling:
- Can you find when I said 44.6 and 44.92 were significantly different? No?
- The following quotes from the conversation that you drew the 44.6 and 44.92 figures from:
That would be the "dickweed" portion of "pedantic dickweed". YMBNH.
Ok, i've had enough. I'm going to show you something from my last post:
<trolling is fun
It was right there at the end. What, you didn't see it? You couldn't tell you were being trolled? The tips about "pedantic dickweedery" and the jab about YMBNH didn't make it clear? Go home before you have an aortic infarction.
<taking the bait
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ProTip: Learn to differentiate between a serious discussion and a trolling one.Filed under: yhbt, hth, hand
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cough
view raw
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JBert:
If you like electricity that way, check out this gadget, though it's quiite shocking.Is this the same guy who makes a glove that will take all the skin off your hand if donned?
Not that I'm aware of, as far as I know this was a one-off April 1st design.
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Is that socket a bit recessed so that you don't have accessible contacts when the power is connected? Or is that still an idea that's uncommon over there?
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The upper slots are slightly recessed to help line up the pins when inserting the plug. Other than that, it's flush.
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Fuck this shit, we BRs implemented our own socket standard, with blackjack and hookers
http://www.iec.ch/worldplugs/typeN.htm
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At least that ensures that nobody can poke their fingers onto a live pin when the plug is inserted. That's not true of all current plug standards.
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So they have different variants for 10A and 20A, but not 127V and 220V? "Find out the local voltage"?
Sure, it's probably easier to make a 120V device deal with 220V circuit than make a 20A device deal with a 10A circuit, but really?
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Is that socket a bit recessed so that you don't have accessible contacts when the power is connected?
At least that ensures that nobody can poke their fingers onto a live pin when the plug is inserted.
I have always felt like that was a solution looking for a problem. I have been plugging and unplugging items from US electrical sockets for very nearly my entire life (36 years in August) and I have never shocked myself that way. Recently I have even taken to laying one finger alongside the plug to insert it in the dark while I am sitting in my son's room until he goes to sleep and it still hasn't happened. I really have no idea why that is seen as such a big deal.
I have been shocked a fair number of times by 110V, several by 220V and once by 440V. Not even once has it happened when plugging something in. Those numbers would be almost zero if I turned off the breaker every time I worked on electrical stuff in the house.
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So they have different variants for 10A and 20A, but not 127V and 220V? "Find out the local voltage"?
Sure, it's probably easier to make a 120V device deal with 220V circuit than make a 20A device deal with a 10A circuit, but really?
Oh, yeah, there are all kinds of plugs that are 240V specifically. As in any well designed multi-voltage system, the outlets have entirely different form factors: a 120V device can't be plugged into a 240V outlet. I show several of the form factors below.
(Note, the top two plugs toward the left are larger than the 120 V outlet.)
As for the difference between 10A and 20A, it's really 15A and 20A. 15A circuits used to be backed by 14 awg copper wire, which has a 15A limit, and only the top outlet should be used on those circuts. 20A circuites have to be 12 awg copper wire and can use either outlet. Devices that need 20A use a male plug shown at the bottom, but we don't see those much anymore; devices using 15A or less, with the two "vertical" pins can plug into either outlet.
15 A
20 A
20 A device plug, will not plug into 15 A outlet
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Oh, yeah, there are all kinds of plugs that are 240V specifically. As in any well designed multi-voltage system, the outlets have entirely different form factors: a 120V device can't be plugged into a 240V outlet. I show several of the form factors below.
I was talking about Brazil, numbnuts.
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I was talking about Brazil, numbnuts.
Then why were you ....
...my mistake. I took your avatar for a US plug reference, so I thought you were asking about the US system.
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Yes, and we frequently damage equipment because of this. The thought of having a different standard for 220v never crossed my mind, as we are so used to it.
The ground pin is also a new thing on this standard, we were used to 2 pin plugs, and pulling the ground plug from imported stuff out.
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I thought you were asking about the US system.
Given I necroed this topic with a picture of my 6-20R installation, your assumption that I am ignorant of North American pin configurations was a trifle condescending.
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(Post typoed by author, will be flamed in 24 minutes unless Hanzoed.)
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Given I necroed this topic with a picture of my 6-20R installation, your assumption that I am ignorant of North American pin configurations was a trifle condescending.
A late entry, but I nominate this for "post of the year, 2015".
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I was in Saudi not too long ago. They have next to no standards, if any at all. In the
plantcontrol room I was working in they had virtually every plug type known to man. Of course that was better than Mexico where they just shoved bare wires into a surge protector.
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A late entry, but I nominate this for "post of the year, 2015".
That and ten more likes will get me a "Mediocre Poster" badge.
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I really have no idea why that is seen as such a big deal.
I remember getting zapped when I was a kid by touching a socket with my finger, but that was like 40 years ago. Maybe they make them better now? Plus, kids will stick a fork in there or something.
I watched someone fiddling with an outlet once--I don't remember what exactly he was doing, but he had been moving a refrigerator--get thrown back, or maybe lurch in shock back into said fridge.
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I was in Saudi not too long ago. They have next to no standards, if any at all.
I was in South Korea about 10 years ago; they had all the standards! Found sockets for US, German and UK style plugs in the lobby of the same hotel. But I think at least they were a single voltage and frequency. I'm not sure that even that's true in Japan…
Of course that was better than Mexico where they just shoved bare wires into a surge protector.
I've seen an Indian (one of my students) do something very much like that. Unfortunately for him (but fortunately for his safety) he bridged from live to the earthed connector, tripping the circuit breaker for the office. I gave him a complete bollocking for that; he got off ever so lightly.
And then I went off to my other office while we got someone from Estates to come and turn the power on for everyone else's computers. It sometimes really helps to have multiple offices, even if both are open-plan.
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Plus, kids will stick a fork in there or something.
Yeah, over here they worry about that a lot more than @dkf's recessed thing. Though that could just be because it's a lot easier to retrofit for.
Speaking of which, I managed to zap myself a few years ago doing said retrofitting. It was a dual-gang outlet fed by two different circuits. Adding to the confusion, the live receptacle was half-switched with the switch being off.
