"The Real World" vs "School"...what I've learned...



  • @blakeyrat said:

    I'd support it just to weaken teacher UNIONS

    Even if an organization starts with good interests, it will always seek it's own survival just like an organism.

    Thus it will find ways to unnaturally extend its lifespan, by continuing to insist it is still needed.

    So it will continue to expand and demand more.

    Until it becomes as damaging as before it existed.

    Goverment/Union/CivilRights/SocialJustice/etc.

    Even a well meaning charity can fall prey to this.

    Once the problem is solved, the solvers become the problem.



  • MOBILE PHONE I ain't diving in 2 menus to type a fucking asterisk, fuck you


  • ♿ (Parody)

    @Jaime said:

    I abhor teachers unions and I think most of them (in New York) are overpaid. You guys are doing a really bad job of guessing my motives, and in some cases, reading my posts.

    We're just trying to come up with a reason as to why you would advocate for what you're advocating. It's not making sense at all now.

    @Jaime said:

    My opinion of vouchers is purely based on the fact that initial large scale programs haven't turned out very good. There have been some small scale successes.

    Perhaps we've just been putting too much emphasis on this one particular thing, but my opinion is different.


  • ♿ (Parody)

    @blakeyrat said:

    MOBILE PHONE I ain't diving in 2 menus to type a fucking asterisk, fuck you

    There are no shits on my lawn (no, really, I just looked), but if there were I'd give them to you.

    No, but seriously, I have no idea what you're trying to tell me. You replied here to my post where I enthusiastically agreed with you.



  • I've infected him.

    @blakeyrat said:

    Have any of my posts ever been even slightly coherent?



  • You were making fun of me for using all-caps instead of italics.


  • ♿ (Parody)

    I wasn't, but I can see why you'd draw that conclusion.



  • That's not what I got from that.



    1. He made-fun of an obviously mobile-phone-related typo in another thread.

    2. He mentioned in another thread people using all-caps for ranting, an obvious reference to me making two posts this morning on my mobile using all-caps instead of italics.

    3. Then I came here and saw he replied to my post which used all-caps instead of italics with a vague all-caps reply. (The kind of reply which, if I had made it, he'd have said, "why didn't you just press the Like button?" And note he did not press the Like button.)

    So I drew the obvious conclusion.



  • @blakeyrat said:

    1) He made-fun of an obviously mobile-phone-related typo in another thread

    1. He mentioned in another thread people using all-caps for ranting

    2. Then I came here

    Ah.

    I was at a severe contextual disadvantage then.

    @blakeyrat said:

    "why didn't you just press the Like button?"

    Like button has no flavor.

    @blakeyrat said:

    he did not press the Like button.

    This forum supports Italics?

    @blakeyrat said:

    press the Like button.

    I did then. So you have your pat on the back. I wouldn't want you to be sad-mad.

    @blakeyrat said:

    So I drew the obvious conclusion.

    A rather subjectively obvious conclusion, for us viewers.

    @blakeyrat said:

    this morning on my mobile using all-caps

    Now this makes sense.

    @blakeyrat said:

    MOBILE PHONE I ain't diving in 2 menus

    Starring requires so much effort.

    @blakeyrat said:

    I ran out of post.


  • ♿ (Parody)

    @blakeyrat said:

    The kind of reply which, if I had made it, he'd have said, "why didn't you just press the Like button?" And note he did not press the Like button.

    I've been avoiding that on your posts as an experiment.



  • Ok well I don't give a shit, but this stupid forum still gives me a blue speech bubble every time someone presses it, so I do notice. Then usually say, "stop notifying me of this bullshit! How is that even a notification? WTF!"



  • @blakeyrat said:

    "stop notifying me of this bullshit! How is that even a notification? WTF!"

    I didn't realize I could troll you by liking your posts.

    Like! Like! Like!.... any more blakey rants?
    Oh there's one...
    Like!


  • ♿ (Parody)

    @Jaime said:

    My opinion of vouchers is purely based on the fact that initial large scale programs haven't turned out very good. There have been some small scale successes.

    I've done a little bit of reading about Sweden's experiment.

    Other important factors beyond the vouchers:

    1. A major shift in curriculum in 1994.
    2. Growing disciplinary problems.
    3. Relatively low instruction hours ("741 hours of instruction time in [the Swedish] school per year whereas the average OECD student receives 942 ")

    In sum, it is unlikely that school choice is the culprit. Indeed, new research suggests that the Swedish vouchers have had a positive, albeit small, impact on student outcomes.

    I think the first two bullets correlate quite nicely with @Mikael_Svahnberg's previous observation about what he called the acebook generation.



  • Reminds me of the pundits talking about how New York's "broken window" law enforcement worked wonders while ignoring the fact that New York increased their police force by like 35% during the same time.

    You need clean stats to draw conclusions.


  • ♿ (Parody)

    True, there are lots of things. But still, when you look at some of the people they caught, e.g., jumping turn styles on the subway who had serious warrants out for them, it's not something you can totally dismiss, either.



  • @blakeyrat said:

    "broken window" law enforcement

    Whereas numbers do matter.

    I don't see how this couldn't have an impact.

    Just observing natural behavior.... and this window stuff seems common sense.

    Now would it reduce crime? No. It would just redirect it elsewhere.
    Does security actually make you more secure, or does it just encourage a thief to pick the easier option?

    Because a shitload of broken windows screams, no one cares about this location.
    A shitload of graffiti screams, they don't really put any effort into stopping it.



  • I'm not saying the "broken window" policing style didn't work. I'm saying there's no way to tell if it worked since they greatly increased the number of police officers at the same time.

    If they had ONLY increased the number of officers, would they have gotten the same result? Maybe. Maybe not. But we can't tell because they changed their policing style to "broken window" at the same time.

    So you know the combination of those two things vastly reduced crime, but you have no idea how much of that reduction is due to one of the things or the other.



  • @blakeyrat said:

    I'm not saying the "broken window" policing style didn't work. I'm saying there's no way to tell if it worked since they greatly increased the number of police officers at the same time.

    If it worked, it can only redirect. Because clean windows is not a deterrent to crime, it's just a misdirection.
    As all windows become clean and unbroken, the criminals won't stop. They'll just start targeting good windows.

    Crime will always be a rat-race. If you police one area well, the crime moves to another area.

    @blakeyrat said:

    I'm saying there's no way to tell if it worked since they greatly increased the number of police officers at the same time.

    Statistics 101.

    Crime becomes a real threat in areas where risk is too high, and thus you stop policing a certain area. Then it grows unchecked and overflows.

    This happened in the Lake Charles area when New Orleans "refugees" from the Katrina moved west.

    Eventually they migrated to Houston, but for a few years Lake Charles had some areas that became real problems.

    It's likely both measures worked in conjunction with each other, by spreading crime thin and weak, then increasing coverage at the same time.


  • ♿ (Parody)

    @xaade said:

    If you police one area well, the crime moves to another area.

    Ideally, inside the prison.



  • (If you're finally done editing....)

    Man, you just don't get it....

    See that 7-11 over there... no, ⬅ that one. With the trash, and the abandoned car?

    Actually, it's a "7-Store" cuz they really don't care enough to be a 7-11.

    Those guys, if I push them around, they'll sell me a giant coke - I can even mix it with Blue Slurpy.

    OTOH - that beautiful Starbuck's, with the sidewalk swept and the polished floors - they would never let me commit the crime of buying giant sugary drinks....

    TLDR: Broken Window Policing prevents (thought) crime.

    Sort of. ;)



  • @Maciejasjmj said:

    I see the Smurf village. DISPROVE ME.

    TOWN OF SALEM | Original Rap – 02:27
    — TheRPGMinx

    ...sorry, made me think of this game.



  • @boomzilla said:

    Indeed, new research suggests that the Swedish vouchers have had a positive, albeit small, impact on student outcomes.

    So, it didn't do much of anything. Would you be happy if our schools were "a little better"? How about the fact that you have to give up control by pushing many students to private schools and now future reform will be more difficult?

    This reminds me of the Affordable Care Act that expended a ton of resources and political capital but solved only one of the numerous major problem in the health care system. Sure, we have more people covered now, but the likelihood of getting costs under control in the near future is pretty much zero.

    For schools, we all know what the right step is - make pay and benefits comparable to other professions that require similar training and hours and implement a system of accountability. Voucher programs are a distraction and shouldn't be pursued.


  • ♿ (Parody)

    @Jaime said:

    Would you be happy if our schools were "a little better"?

    I'd be happier than if they weren't. I'm not convinced that's all we'd get out of it.

    @Jaime said:

    How about the fact that you have to give up control by pushing many students to private schools and now future reform will be more difficult?

    I don't want to have control like that.

    @Jaime said:

    This reminds me of the Affordable Care Act that expended a ton of resources and political capital but solved only one of the numerous major problem in the health care system.

    Citation needed.

    @Jaime said:

    For schools, we all know what the right step is - make pay and benefits comparable to other professions that require similar training and hours...

    No we don't. First of all, I think there are probably too many requirements on teaching. Is there good evidence that a master's in education does much? What training is really required? How many hours do they really work compared to other professions? Your PhD in Communism is showing again (shades of value theory of labor going on here).

    Interestingly, my wife left this up on my browser this morning (I suspect there was some facebook bitching by some of her teacher friends):

    @Jaime said:

    ...and implement a system of accountability.

    This I definitely agree with, though what such a system might look like is difficult to say. One thing I would say is that a voucher program does this by letting people make more decisions about their kids' educations. I'm not saying it's perfect, but I suspect it will work better than top down efforts like the bipartisan No Child Left Behind.


  • ♿ (Parody)

    Oh...one other reason to believe that teachers aren't underpaid: There are still plenty of people interested in becoming teachers at current pay rates. My familiarity is largely with the market for teachers in California, and it seems fairly glutted, supply-wise.



  • I haven't followed the debate in this thread, but let me weigh in with one aspect of the vouchers: plannability. From year to year it is imposible to know how many students will choose a different school, and so the communal school must retain capacity to - in the worst case - accept them all. Of course, this rarely or never happens, and since they too get paid per student, it becomes difficult to keep the budget straight.

    Oh, and you are only allowed to choose within your county. Guess how many choices you have to an already slimmed and low-status communal school in low-income suburbs?



  • @boomzilla said:

    No we don't. First of all, I think there are probably too many requirements on teaching. Is there good evidence that a master's in education does much? What training is really required? How many hours do they really work compared to other professions? Your PhD in Communism is showing again (shades of value theory of labor going on here).

    You misunderstood me again and assumed I was a communist. Note, I never said "teachers are underpaid", but you insist on pretending that I have beliefs that you can easily argue with. I meant that teacher salaries should be reduced in most states (raised in some). In my part of the world, we have a low cost of living (the average house is $140,000) and a teacher's average salaries are just a shade under a hundred grand. They also only work nine months, coaching or summer school is extra.


  • ♿ (Parody)

    @Jaime said:

    Note, I never said "teachers are underpaid", but you insist on pretending that I have beliefs that you can easily argue with.

    Sorry, it seemed like the obvious point you were making about a field of over educated and often portrayed as over worked.

    @Jaime said:

    and a teacher's average salaries are just a shade under a hundred grand.

    😯 I've never heard of a situation like that anywhere else (I've heard of similar salaries, but in high cost of living areas). We were starting with vastly different assumptions.


  • FoxDev

    Disclaimer: I can only speak for the UK system.

    @Jaime said:

    They also only work nine months

    I have it on excellent authority* that teachers work more than just nine months. Plus, they often work over the weekends; you'd be surprised just how much stuff they do at home.

    *My mother is a primary school teacher; for USians, that's basically elementary school



  • @Jaime said:

    implement a system of accountability. Voucher programs

    You've placed the words oh so closely together...



  • Now, to be fair, you must admit that this is the country that's okay with having it's own flag banned from schools to avoid offending people.


  • ♿ (Parody)

    Sweden did that? Hey, some schools in the US ban kids from wearing shirts with our flag on it on today's date.



  • The ninth circuit could use some lead poisoning as much as Sweden, apparently.


  • BINNED

    @xaade said:

    I didn't realize I could troll you by liking your posts.

    YMBNH™



  • @Jaime said:

    Would you be happy if our schools were "a little better"?

    Ok, now I know you're just couch-warrioring.

    "Let's not take an option that has results, the results aren't good enough."
    "Under your model, the results will never be good enough, you'll have us arguing all day over doing nothing."

    @Jaime said:

    How about the fact that you have to give up control by pushing many students to private schools and now future reform will be more difficult?

    If they left because the private school is doing it right, then those students at those schools, don't need your reform.
    Or is this just about controlling people.

    @Jaime said:

    getting costs under control

    Because it's just making the bandage (insurance) bigger. It never tried to get costs under control. It's only trying to get insurance premiums under control, but those are capped by medical costs. But all it has really done is equalized premiums. Old, sick, and poor people are seeing their premiums drop at the cost of higher premiums to the bread winners. This will overall lower the taxable income, which is why Obamacare wants to tax benefits. Obamacare knows it just crippled itself.

    I just had this conversation with a reasonable Canadian the other day. We realized that Canada doesn't have the same lawsuit problems. Legal insurance is a big budget item in America. And the conservatives have been trying to push to get that under control.

    @Jaime said:

    make pay and benefits comparable to other professions that require similar training and hours and implement a system of accountability

    Well, part of the problem with that, is because teaching is isolated from the economy, it's hard to even know what the value of that job is. Educators will make whatever people are willing to pay them. That's true whether the private individual or the public government is holding the checkbook.

    Training doesn't determine value of labor, the market does. How much the market can afford to pay teachers is what they will make. Anything to change that, damages something else. Now, as a public entity, we can choose how much damage to accept, but damage will occur.

    I think the bigger problem with education is that we expect everyone to get the same level of education for every job. And that this education expectation is seeing drastic inflation.

    Evidence?

    Obama wants to make college free for low income families.

    That's going to destroy the value of college education, because you'll have people going to college then exiting or dropping out to be a cashier.

    Do you really want the entry level cashier position to ask what college you went to?



  • @Mikael_Svahnberg said:

    so the communal school must retain capacity to - in the worst case - accept them all. Of course, this rarely or never happens, and since they too get paid per student, it becomes difficult to keep the budget straight.

    Private schools have caps on admissions. Problem solved.



  • @boomzilla said:

    How many hours do they really work compared to other professions?

    Good teachers?
    Significant overtime during school season.

    They can either get their check as they work, get it distributed year round, or also work summer school.



  • Fucking appeasers.

    The only thing I can conclude is that they are so far into their delusions that they simply cannot comprehend someone having a different opinion and yet have a rational reason for having that opinion.

    Therefore everyone with a different opinion must be some insane timebomb.

    Yet, when they have actual insane timebombs with a physical proven record for doing so, those people are just freedom fighters. Ironic since I can't deduce how they reconcile the fact that those freedom fighters think completely different than they do. I mean seriously, they see almost moderate rightwingers as insane, and truly extremists right theocratic fascists as justified freedom fighters.

    I mean, hispanics are traditionally conservative. In order for them to vote left, they had to lay down their traditional political ideology at the alter of leftism in order to get the freebies.

    I guess leftists are only tolerant of someone who bows down at their alter.



  • @xaade said:

    Training doesn't determine value of labor, the market does. How much the market can afford to pay teachers is what they will make. Anything to change that, damages something else. Now, as a public entity, we can choose how much damage to accept, but damage will occur.

    The market factors for a teacher really boils down to "Will the people we want to hire choose a different job?". That's why you look at other jobs that the teacher might jump to. As long as you are in that ballpark, then you'll be able to hire qualified teachers.

    This plays almost no part in the current process of deciding salary. Today, it's a teacher's union talking to a school board deciding what to pay. That's two other people deciding how to spend my money. Neither has any incentive to negotiate down.


  • BINNED

    @xaade said:

    Do you really want the entry level cashier position to ask what college you went to?

    This is already starting to happen. At my last job they implemented a policy of requiring degrees for all positions a few months before I left.



  • @blakeyrat said:

    1) He made-fun of an obviously mobile-phone-related typo in another thread.

    1. He mentioned in another thread people using all-caps for ranting, an obvious reference to me making two posts this morning on my mobile using all-caps instead of italics.

    2. Then I came here and saw he replied to my post which used all-caps instead of italics with a vague all-caps reply. (The kind of reply which, if I had made it, he'd have said, "why didn't you just press the Like button?" And note he did not press the Like button.)

    So I drew the obvious conclusion.

    Translation: @blakeyrat was listening to his shoulder aliens.



  • @Jaime said:

    They also only work nine months, coaching or summer school is extra.

    Regionally false. Many school districts near Phoenix have moved to a year-round schedule. With the year-round school, the semesters get broken into quarters and the quarters are each separated by a seasonal break. Teachers end up taking most of these breaks to wrap up grading for the preceding quarter and plan for the next quarter. Breaks are generally as follows:

    • Fall break is about 1 week long.
    • Winter break is about 3 weeks and coincides with Christmas and New Years.
    • Spring break is about a week and a half.
    • Summer break is about 5 weeks. The extra time is needed to wrap up the "year" for a given group of students and prepare for the next group as kids move from one grade to the next.

    All told, that works out to about 10 weeks off, spread over the year. Rounded, that's about 9 months of work, but your estimate doesn't account for any breaks during the traditional school year, so I'll say that those who work at a year-round school are working 11 months.



  • @boomzilla said:

    Hey, some schools in the US ban kids from wearing shirts with our flag on it on today's date.

    Admittedly, the reasoning for that is to "prevent violence." But it is still pretty belgium stupid.



  • @abarker said:

    Regionally false. Many school districts near Phoenix have moved to a year-round schedule.

    Are you purposely misreading my posts so you can argue? Here is the full quote:

    @Jaime said:

    In my part of the world, we have a low cost of living (the average house is $140,000) and a teacher's average salaries are just a shade under a hundred grand. They also only work nine months, coaching or summer school is extra.

    Notice that I qualified it with "In my part of the world".


  • ♿ (Parody)

    @abarker said:

    Translation: @blakeyrat was listening to his shoulder aliens.

    Or I'm now trolling him at a subconscious level.


  • ♿ (Parody)

    @abarker said:

    Admittedly, the reasoning for that is to "prevent violence."

    Yeah, I think heckler's vetoes are stupid and we should stomp the groin on the idiots threatening the violence in the first place.



  • @Jaime said:

    Are you purposely misreading my posts so you can argue?

    It appears I omitted a :trollface:, 🚎, 🛂, or other emojindicator. No matter, those are only nicities.



  • @Jaime said:

    The market factors for a teacher really boils down to "Will the people we want to hire choose a different job?".

    Actually I see a lot of teachers looking for what school to teach at.

    @Jaime said:

    That's why you look at other jobs that the teacher might jump to.

    If you mean, what other jobs an education major might jump to, then the pay scale favors teachers a lot in my area.

    If you mean, what degree a person interested in education may choose otherwise, um... no. I don't think it's reasonable for teacher salary to compete with engineer.



  • @abarker said:

    "prevent violence."

    they're promoting culture-rape culture.


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