"The Real World" vs "School"...what I've learned...
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You're saying that the US isn't exactly like 1984
your analysis is wrong.
So you claim that it is exactly like 1984.
Carry on, then...
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it is exactly like 1984.
Oh, now you're changing your story to claim that it is exactly like that?
Filed Under: Two can quote things out of context
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What context? You reiterated what you think I'm claiming (quite correctly, even if understating), then claimed I'm wrong.
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strikes again?
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Unless you're going to tell 8 year olds to go get a job, "can't attend the good schools because my parents don't have the money" (even without getting into how reasonable or unreasonable it is from the parent's perspective) and "can't attend the good schools because racist rules prohibit it" is pretty much a distinction without a difference to the person most affected.
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What context?
I quoted the full sentence here:
You're saying that the US isn't exactly like 1984 so it's irrelevant.
You ignored (by not quoting) the bolded part which made your response a non sequitur.
To be fair, someone talking about Orwell might be a sign of paranoia, but it might also just mean that they've read the book and are paying attention.
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Unfortunately, a voucher-based competitive market of schools won't perform as well as decently-run public education.
This argument would carry more weight if the US had a "decently-run public education[al system]".
Given how poorly it actually works in places, insisting that everyone who can't afford to move stay where they are is a bit heartleass.
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If Carlin believed that, he's an idiot.
Carlin probably did believe it, based on how dark his humor became as he got older.
Having said that, I assume you're calling him an idiot on the idea that fascism won. I wouldn't call it a complete victory, but the people in charge in the US do seem to have forgotten the US experiment was about maximizing the ability to pursue liberty for everyone.
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but the people in charge in the US do seem to have forgotten the US experiment was about maximizing the ability to pursue liberty for everyone.
The American Progressives at the time were very sympathetic to the European fascists and their ideas. Our modern Progressives aren't that different in many of the same ways.
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Before long, you will have a choice - learn under a religious doctrine or go to a privately run school that is most likely run by the crackpot-of-the-month with an educational experiment to run
You simply have no idea what you're talking about, and I say that as someone who went both to a private Catholic school and has been in the public school system.
I've got news for you: Common Core is that crackpot-of-the-month educational experiment.
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since nothing except for a couple of heated articles from both sides came out of it?
Don't forget about the men who were hounded out of college, branded as rapists, please.
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My objection is that millions of children will have to listen a specific religious doctrine in order to go to the best school.
Yes, because that's so horrible.
Being far out of school age, I don't know what it's like now, but the education I got at a Catholic school was far better than what I got at a public one, and that's with me making an effort to pack as much as I could (I packed 5 years of high school classes into 4 calendar years, with concerted effort.)
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Catholic schools seem to do an excellent job at a pretty good price.
In case anyone's wondering, that prices is approximately $6000 a year, in addition to the school taxes you're already paying. At least, that was the case in Dallas a couple of years ago, when I checked out of curiosity.
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You're not getting jailed for making fun of Obama.
No, you're just "conspiring against the President" if you invite the leader of Israel for dinner. As if Israel is secretly our enemy.
You're just a traitor if you mention that executive orders can be overturned by the next President.
Being silenced politically is practically the slippery slope to being jailed.
You're not tracked on the streets by sad men in coats, you don't have to be constantly wary whether one of your friends is going to denounce you to the KGB
No, but you can get audited and have to defend your business with a lot more money than usual.
US might have the ability to do so if they so wish one day
The IRS is buying up guns and ammunition.
Ministry of Peace indeed.
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You simply have no idea what you're talking about, and I say that as someone who went both to a private Catholic school and has been in the public school system.
I've got news for you: Common Core is that crackpot-of-the-month educational experiment.
It doesn't matter that both are true. Fixing the public school system will give a much better outcome than giving up, instituting a voucher program, and hoping that competition will sort it all out. Every country that has tried a widespread voucher system is evidence that it won't do what you claim it will do.
So, stop telling me how bad the current system is, that does not constitute evidence that vouchers are good. Also, of course Catholic schools have better students and a better learning environment - the parents that send their children there are more involved (as evidenced by the $6000 they are willing to spend on them) and are wealthier (as evidenced by the $6000 that the parents can spare). That's selection bias.
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in addition to the school taxes you're already paying
And in addition to the state and federal income tax you are paying. What does the tax that funds public schools have to do with the performance of Catholic schools?
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OK...how?
If I don't have a suggestion, then vouchers are a good idea? I don't have to have a better alternative to inform you that someone has tried yours and it didn't work.
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Fixing the public school system will give a much better outcome than giving up, instituting a voucher program, and hoping that competition will sort it all out.
Well, to apply any fix to the current public system, you have to get past the entrenched union/bureaucratic system, which is a tall order. I don't see why people should be forced to stay in that system in the hopes they'll get outraged enough to try to force the issue. What you're arguing, though, would do just that. Maybe you don't realize it. But I've actually heard people say it explicitly, and that seems pretty cruel to me.
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What does the tax that funds public schools have to do with the performance of Catholic schools?
Beats me. I was just saying that public-school taxes that people pay is an implicit cost even to people who don't use the public-school system.
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Not saying that. But I am saying that if those with the means leave, then they should be prepared to be robbed by the ones that couldn't follow them.
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If I don't have a suggestion, then vouchers are a good idea?
Opposing vouchers is letting the perfect be the enemy of the good. Everyone who can find a way out of a failing school should be allowed--no, encouraged--to do so.
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I was just saying that public-school taxes that people pay is an implicit cost even to people who don't use the public-school system.
Yes, so is every other tax. That's how taxes work. When you get what you pay for, that's called a fee.
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But I am saying that if those with the means leave, then they should be prepared to be robbed by the ones that couldn't follow them.
Fascist.
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My objection is that millions of children will have to listen a specific religious doctrine in order to go to the best school.
Well, fuck, they can't do anything right huh?
Even if they are leading the charts in educational success, they don't teach the material exactly how the "ones who know better" think they should.
It's not like I wasn't taught modern science by a Christian and literally the only difference was "You may personally object to this material, but this is the material we will teach you. Evolution is ..."
Even all those ideal "public" schools still teach Darwin and evolution wrong. They're 10 years behind basic things like how electrons actually behave in an atom.
I wouldn't be surprised if I walked into a school teaching the pudding atomic model.
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If I don't have a suggestion, then vouchers are a good idea? I
I think a lot of people have ideas about different ways to run a school. Let's let them try and see what happens. ideally, it will give the existing schools an incentive to try their own things to convince parents that they can do it better.
I don't have a suggestion on how to improve lots of things in life, but I don't think that giving existing suppliers a monopoly will help.
I don't have to have a better alternative to inform you that someone has tried yours and it didn't work.
You haven't really informed me that it won't work. The previous program in DC was helping some kids. That's success. I'm not terribly familiar with the Swedish experiment, but that it didn't work so well for them (supposedly) isn't necessarily the iron clad proof you seem to think it is.
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google search IRS AR-15.
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Not saying that. But I am saying that if those with the means leave, then they should be prepared to be robbed by the ones that couldn't follow them.
The fuck?
You want to give them room to destroy too?
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google search IRS AR-15.
Oh great, I can't wait to find 40,000 New Republic posts with that Google Search.
How about YOU provide a reputable source for your ridiculous claim? Since you're making the claim, it's kind of your job.
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I think when the sources show a congressman asking why the IRS needs to train with AR-15s, it is sufficient evidence that the IRS is in fact training with AR-15s.
The opinion on why is irrelevant.
You only asked me to source that they WERE buying ammunition.
Now as for the opinion. The question is why the IRS has agents and needs to internalize armed affairs. I mean isn't that a conflict of interest?
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I think when the sources show a congressman asking why the IRS needs to train with AR-15s,
I think you should provide a source to back-up this assertion.
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I think you should provide a source to back-up this assertion.
http://www.politico.com/story/2013/06/jeff-duncan-irs-rifle-training-92662.html
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Before long, you will have a choice - learn under a religious doctrine or go to a privately run school that is most likely run by the crackpot-of-the-month with an educational experiment to run, or by a failed businessman trying to qualify for government funding. There is already a parallel for it in post-secondary education. Devry, ITT Tech, and Bryant & Stratton are all poor schools that chase funding instead of delivering quality.
This entire paragraph is exactly what public schools are doing. As a matter of fact, it's the entire reason public schools end up failing.
They're either chasing funding, or being run as a crackpot social experiment.
It's just that right now, it's a public monopoly running the show.
So, basically we'd rather ensure failure for all, than risk failure for some.
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I quoted the full sentence here:
You're saying that the US isn't exactly like 1984 so it's irrelevant.
You ignored (by not quoting) the bolded part which made your response a non sequitur.
To be fair, someone talking about Orwell might be a sign of paranoia, but it might also just mean that they've read the book and are paying attention.
Fiiine, I'll give you that - I parsed "it" as "what you say", not "the book".
But still, drawing parallels between 1984 and modern-day US is like drawing parallels between a two-headed beast getting slain by a sword in Nostradamus and 9/11 - if you squint really hard and stretch it you might be able to, but then again, you can squint and stretch and come up with anything from anything.
Don't forget about the men who were hounded out of college, branded as rapists, please.
Blame the braindead girls who think regretting sex is as good a reason as any to accuse someone of rape, and braindead deans who rolled with it. I doubt the whole noise about the existence or non-existence of this "rape epidemic" had anything to do with stupid people being stupid.
Being silenced politically is practically the slippery slope to being jailed.
It's also slippery slope to being shot, having your family hauled off to Uzbekistan, genocide, and having the human race wiped out.
Except we're not quite there on that slope.
Ministry of Peace indeed.
I see the Smurf village. DISPROVE ME.
I think when the sources show a congressman asking why the IRS needs to train with AR-15s, it is sufficient evidence that the IRS is in fact training with AR-15s.
Why do you need to beat your wife?
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@Jaime said:
Not saying that. But I am saying that if those with the means leave, then they should be prepared to be robbed by the ones that couldn't follow them.
The fuck?You want to give them room to destroy too?
What I'm saying is that every time a student walks away from a public school with their several thousand dollar voucher, the public school gets less funding. This is a path directly to a large number of incredibly horrible schools, the likes of which we haven't seen yet. Lower quality education leads to a deeper poverty spiral and will likely drive the crime rate up.
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Everyone who can find a way out of a failing school should be allowed--no, encouraged--to do so.
Yes, as long as they don't make the school worse by doing so. That's the part of the voucher system that's bad.
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But still, drawing parallels between 1984 and modern-day US is like drawing parallels between a two-headed beast getting slain by a sword in Nostradamus and 9/11
We're going to have to agree to disagree on this, then.
Blame the braindead girls who think regretting sex is as good a reason as any to accuse someone of rape, and braindead deans who rolled with it.
Part of the reason the "braindead deans" rolled with it was for fear of losing the Federal funds. Again, see Title IX (I liked wiki above).
Why do you need to beat your wife?
You're not making sense, but maybe you didn't scroll down far enough to follow the link I posted that substantiates his claim.
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What I'm saying is that every time a student walks away from a public school with their several thousand dollar voucher, the public school gets less funding.
Not true in all implementations, but so what? They're no longer having to spend money to educate that child.
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The hilarious part about the whole debate is that there are folks who have good cause to refuse any voucher, due to the way the Individuals with Disabilities Education Act works -- AIUI, it simply doesn't (and likely can't) apply to private schools (the ADA still applies, but isn't nearly as comprehensive as IDEA is), and also includes "child find" provisions where school districts must reach out and try to identify families of children with disabilities who are not receiving special education services, and notify them of their rights under IDEA.
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Yes, as long as they don't make the school worse by doing so. That's the part of the voucher system that's bad.
The de-facto argument is that good students prop up bad schools.
So by that definition, leaving at all is making the school worse.
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must reach out and try to identify families of children with disabilities who are not receiving special education services
So there's an incentive to identify a child as "disabled".
No wonder there's an ADHD epidemic.
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Except we're not quite there on that slope.
Let's look and see how steep that slope is.
You know, slippery slope isn't a logical fallacy when you have a sufficient historical pattern showing the slope in action.
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drawing parallels between 1984 and modern-day US is like drawing parallels between a two-headed beast getting slain by a sword in Nostradamus and 9/11
And I thought I was random.
Comon, where's blakey
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Why do you need to beat your wife?
Is there a congressman with a paper in his hand showing documented evidence I am beating my wife?
You act like this is all hearsay.
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Yes, as long as they don't make the school worse by doing so.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pdR7WW3XR9c
"What the honorable gentleman is saying is that he would rather the poor were poorer, provided the rich were less rich."
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So by that definition, leaving at all is making the school worse.
Then it might behoove everyone to leave that school, rather than make everyone stay!
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It is already failing.
Hard.
And throwing money at bad schools is making it fail harder.
Throwing money at people who consistently fail (like the public school leadership in areas where schools are massively failing) has never improved anything. Hence welfare is a failure, letting failing parents keep kids is a failure, the whole leftist social experiment is a failure.
You want to fix poor schools. Here's the answer. Give incentive pay to teachers with a proven track record to teach in the failing schools, and fire the shit out of the teachers failing at the failing schools. If a full staff replacement doesn't fix the problem, it is a big red flashing sign out of hell that you can't fix that school.
At that point you have to consider the likelihood that the parents are dragging the kids down, and if you truly want to help, have to consider the possibility that splitting up families is your own remaining option.
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poor were poorer
Because keeping the poor people poor is what makes the government look like heroes.
When you can say, "hey look at the scraps of shit we offered them, it's better than what they had", then you can effectively keep your social slavery going for generations, giving you a purpose and keeping the couch warriors happy.
These people give a fuck-all about the poor.
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These people give a fuck-all about the poor.
Yeah, he hated having that pointed out, but it's implicit in what he said. Notice nobody there tried to argue Thatcher's point that all income classes, broadly speaking, were better off, but her characterization is inherent in what he said, taken together with that point.
