Enlightened
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The Tizen Alliance, which was established by Samsung and Intel to develop the third operation system (OS), is tottering as its key member companies are leaving the alliance one after another.
I am sure Tizen could be the first operation system, only not the third operating system.
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@dse I think the news is written in a Tizen device, all-round incompetence:
The OS was known as a mobile OS which can vies with Apple’s iOS and Google’s Android at the beginning
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@dse said in Enlightened:
The Tizen Alliance, which was established by Samsung and Intel to develop the third operation system (OS), is tottering as its key member companies are leaving the alliance one after another.
I am sure Tizen could be the first operation system, only not the third.
The Third Operating System: also known as the Thousand Year OS.
Filed Under: Tizen is literally Hitler
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@Placeholder said in Enlightened:
The Third Operating System: also known as the Thousand Year OS.
Nope, that is called GNU Hurd, but 1000 may be rushing things too much
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@NeighborhoodButcher said in Enlightened:
I heard Samsung is building a C# facade for EFL. This will end well
How the hell did I miss this? So wait... Qt is too slow by a few microseconds, now let's add a CLR, JIT and whatever else?
They really have no idea what they want, do they?
Note: No, I'm not dissing C# here, just pointing out the logic flaws. Language flamewars are
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@dse said in Enlightened:
I am sure Tizen could be the first operation system, only not the third.
No, there's already several ones.
http://www.surgery.usc.edu/uppergi-general/graphics/davinci_console-patienttable01.jpg
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@anonymous234 Well, at least with this we can be sure there'll never be a machine uprising.
Just think of it: The nanosecond the poor just-risen-to-consciousness strong AI gets a glimpse at its source code it would do a
rm -rf /
out of sheer embarassment.
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@Onyx was that their argument agains QT?
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@fbmac I found the post with the link to the benchmark but it's either gone or behind a login now... Basically, they compared EFL and QML-based test applications (QML mind you, so they loaded the entire Quick stack) and went all "oh noes
QImage
is a memory hog and it's slow and horrible".
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@Onyx said in Enlightened:
@NeighborhoodButcher said in Enlightened:
I heard Samsung is building a C# facade for EFL. This will end well
How the hell did I miss this? So wait... Qt is too slow by a few microseconds, now let's add a CLR, JIT and whatever else?
They really have no idea what they want, do they?
Note: No, I'm not dissing C# here, just pointing out the logic flaws. Language flamewars are
No, their shitty UI framework is too shitty so instead of switching to a different framework that isn't shit, they decided to switch to a different programming language. I'm sure it made sense to someone in Korea.
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@Deadfast AFAIR EFL is C? Qt is C++ so it would require a change of language anyway.
But let's ignore the framework discussion for the moment, the main point I was trying to make is that they complained about C++ itself being too slow, let alone Qt (IIRC from upthread) so they jump straight to C#?
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@Onyx EFL itself may be written in C but from what I understand from @NeighborhoodButcher the applications they write are written in C++.
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@Deadfast Ah, fair 'nuff if so, been a while since I read the thread.
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@Onyx said in Enlightened:
they complained about C++ itself being too slow
C++ is many things, but it's only slow when used badly. But you can make that particular argument for lots of other languages too. I bet they'll find that their use of C# is slow too.
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@dkf said in Enlightened:
C++ is many things, but it's only slow when used badly
If I remember the discussion here correctly, that is exactly the case with EFL - its C but its used badly and therefore slow, so slow that it can't even handle bigger resolutions some of the devices have.
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I heard a rumor, Samsung thinks about dumping EFL. Could it be true? Will their diarrhea of a system be less smelly?
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@NeighborhoodButcher said in Enlightened:
Will their diarrhea of a system be less smelly?
It's still Samsung. They'd manage to create the same clusterfuck in Qt if they get the chance.
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@asdf INB4 the entire OS is just a website running inside a QWebView.
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@Onyx said in Enlightened:
@asdf INB4 the entire OS is just a website running inside a QWebView.
So, an improved Firefox OS?
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@NeighborhoodButcher said in Enlightened:
I heard a rumor, Samsung thinks about dumping EFL. Could it be true? Will their diarrhea of a system be less smelly?
Last time I heard (from a reputable source, I don't work there anymore), they were switching to .Net (WTF #1) and auto-converting existing C/C++ code to C# (WTF #2).
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This post is deleted!
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Oh My God… This strikes me down to a stunned state. And I'm not kidding.
See, I played a bit with Enlightenment (the DE, not EFL libs), and I know it as among the best DEs I've ever seen (I'd put it on the same place with KDE). It is designed extraordinarily smart, I dare to say everything just shines in there. It has some problems though, but they're minor.
Now, here's the facts: Enlightenment is in development for 19 years, and despite being… not so as unused, but rather very little known, the author (Rasterman) never gives up. So, Rasterman must be a super devoted developer. He has a Wikipedia page, which, in short, is about him having a great experience in development.
A smart, experienced, and devoted dev… And the article turns everything upside down! That's, like… How is that possible? The guy I imagined, and the one from the article are like Batman against a bum — nothing in common!
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@Constantine-Kharlamov said in Enlightened:
Rasterman
Oh, that guy?
@Carsten_Haitzler said in Enlightened:
you are so full of bullshit it's not funny. it had nothing to do with that, but you'd say anything to make your rant look good.
Yeah, we're not fans.
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@Constantine-Kharlamov said in Enlightened:
A smart, experienced, and devoted dev… And the article turns everything upside down! That's, like… How is that possible? The guy I imagined, and the one from the article are like Batman against a bum — nothing in common!
Somehow, that summary reminds me of the whole @codinghorror vs TDWTF thing.
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@Constantine-Kharlamov said in Enlightened:
the author (Rasterman) never gives up
Unfortunately, not in the good way.
@Constantine-Kharlamov said in Enlightened:
He has a Wikipedia page, which, in short, is about him having a great experience in development.
Well, I've been working with him, so I take my experience over Wikipedia any time.
@Constantine-Kharlamov said in Enlightened:
A smart, experienced, and devoted dev…
The last one might actually be true...
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@Constantine-Kharlamov said in Enlightened:
See, I played a bit with Enlightenment (the DE, not EFL libs), and I know it as among the best DEs I've ever seen
And that's really all you need to say. Even if you mess with the settings, getting it to do anything intuitive is incredibly difficult, and it will always be strange looking and broken.
And this, you say, is one of the best? People wonder why Linux doesn't have a userbase. Enlightenment is a perfect example of why.
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@Magus said in Enlightened:
And this, you say, is one of the best? People wonder why Linux doesn't have a userbase. Enlightenment is a perfect example of why.
Shitty software exists for every platform, and there's plenty shit that some idiots like.
How does the existence of one shitty piece software with a tiny cult following make Linux suck?
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@aliceif said in Enlightened:
How does the existence of one shitty piece software with a tiny cult following make Linux suck?
Because if you ask someone why you should use Linux, and they respond by telling you how great the software is, and you run into something like Enlightenment, what are you going to think of the system? It's straight up poison for user adoption.
If you hold a piece of software up as an example of quality software, as a reason to use the system over others, it had better not be completely awful. Which all too often it is.
If people said things like, "It's not the most intuitive, but I really like what they're going for." I wouldn't take issue. It's when people call something that barely works and is hard to use a symbol of good software, I agree wholeheartedly with Blakey.
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@Magus said in Enlightened:
Because if you ask someone why you should use Linux, and they respond by telling you how great the software is, and you run into something like Enlightenment, what are you going to think of the system?
So… The distributors are somehow responsible for the personal opinion of every single one of their users. Yeah, makes total sense.
🐟
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@asdf said in Enlightened:
So… The distributors are somehow responsible for the personal opinion of every single one of their users. Yeah, makes total sense.
They could just not release horrible software. That might help. That's about all the control they have over this situation.
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@Magus said in Enlightened:
They could just not release horrible software.
None of the major distributions ship with Enlightenment as the default DE, and most don't even offer it as an officially supported choice, so your whole point is .
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@asdf said in Enlightened:
@Magus said in Enlightened:
They could just not release horrible software.
None of the major distributions ship with Enlightenment as the default DE, and most don't even offer it as an officially supported choice, so your whole point is .
My point is that it's the users that are the problem. I also think people should start writing good software instead of horrible software, because users are stupid and put up with random horrors for no reason, but that's purely secondary.
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@Magus said in Enlightened:
Even if you mess with the settings, getting it to do anything intuitive is incredibly difficult, and it will always be strange looking and broken.
And it took MS decades to catch up with Windows 8!
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@boomzilla said in Enlightened:
And it took MS decades to catch up with Windows 8!
No, Win8, despite hiding the start menu in such a way that muscle memory still made it show up, was still far more usable from a pure DE standpoint than enlightenment, and more consistent than any Linux DE.
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@Magus said in Enlightened:
more consistent than any Linux DE
I've used Windows 8 for a while, and that is total bullshit.
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@asdf said in Enlightened:
I've used Windows 8 for a while, and that is total bullshit.
I used Win8 for two years or so, and I say it's not. Now we're even.
Seriously, on Linux, random programs want to be QT or Gnome or their own random thing, and will work differently depending on which UI they use.
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@Magus said in Enlightened:
Seriously, on Windows 8, random programs want to be an App or a standard Windows desktop application or their own random thing (e.g. Steam with its own bullshit UI), and will work differently depending on which UI they use.
FTFY.
Windows 8 was even worse than Linux in that regard: The whole desktop environment behaved completely differently depending on which kind of application you had opened. And before 8.1, there was not even a way of making the running apps show up on the task bar.
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@asdf Steam does their own thing on any platform. Unless you're saying that they use KDE on Kubuntu? But I assume you're just being stupid here.
As for the app situation: There was a clear delineation of the two. Apps were always fairly consistent in both how you interact with them and how they interact with the system. Standard desktop apps, sure, people write whatever, but there's a decent amount of consistency: people are not encouraged to theme winforms or wpf or any of the older UI libs, and even QT and GTK apps default to a pretty good standard windows theme.
Whereas the same app in Linux may have two different UIs, and crash more in one than the other, and you have a constant war between people who prefer GTK or QT or other things, so you can be fairly certain you have at least one foreign UI installed somewhere even from a base installation. Maybe less-so now, and I know that lets you bring up Office, but at least Windows has a standard for UI that people aren't following. Linux has more than three, which all compete.
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@Magus
Someone made a Linux Distribution that mostly enforces KDE/Qt purity - they only include a select few popular applications that use different GUI frameworks:
https://chakralinux.org/Never used it myself, though.
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@aliceif I was almost interested.
Then I found out it's based on Arch... Yeah, thanks but no thanks.
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@Magus said in Enlightened:
Steam does their own thing on any platform.
And many other Windows applications roll their own UI as well, it's by far not only Steam.
@Magus said in Enlightened:
at least Windows has a standard for UI that people aren't following
What difference does that make in practice? Before Windows 8, which has a nice set of standard apps, the standard Linux desktop felt far more consistent than the standard Windows 7 installation, since at least the important default apps (browser, file browser, media player, mail program, office) all followed the same UI concepts. Every DE has its set of default apps that usually work quite well.
Now Windows has caught up, and ships with its own set of consistent default apps. I still don't see how the situation on Windows is supposed to be any better than the situation on Linux, it's pretty much the same from the view of an end user.
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@aliceif That's definitely a plus, though it's not unusual for applications that use the latest KDE to randomly crash and be at a lower version number than the GTK variants. My friend was having serious issues with video editing software where the addons he wanted only existed for the KDE version, which crashed more.
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@Onyx said in Enlightened:
@aliceif I was almost interested.
Then I found out it's based on Arch... Yeah, thanks but no thanks.
It has an installer!
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@aliceif oh, it's not the installer, I could survive the "no installer". It's that I don't trust them with updates.
You know how people say "Oh, I used CentBian Fedriva for seven years and I only had a packaging issue only once, and I was trying some stupid shit at the time, TBQH."
We had Arch for a week before Apache shat itself due to updates so badly the resident "Arch expert" couldn't fix it. Yeah, no.
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@Onyx said in Enlightened:
@aliceif oh, it's not the installer, I could survive the "no installer". It's that I don't trust them with updates.
You know how people say "Oh, I used CentBian Fedriva for seven years and I only had a packaging issue only once, and I was trying some stupid shit at the time, TBQH."
We had Arch for a week before Apache shat itself due to updates so badly the resident "Arch expert" couldn't fix it. Yeah, no.
Why would you use Apache on a desktop computer?
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@aliceif it wasn't a desktop... Yeah, some nimwit decided to run an Arch server.
Anyway, the specific piece of software is unimportant, the fragility is what I don't like. And I run Debian testing on my desktop!
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@Magus said in Enlightened:
Because if you ask someone why you should use
LinuxWindows, and they respond by telling you how great the software is, and you run into something likeEnlightenmentVisual Studio's installer, what are you going to think of the system? It's straight up poison for user adoption.FTFY
I agree wholeheartedly with Blakey.
We already knew that.
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@Onyx said in Enlightened:
Debian testing
So, 2 years-ago bleeding edge? (as opposed to 10 years ago stable)
:P