This systemd thing is really out of hand.
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What. The. Fuck.
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Nothing to see here, please move along.
You may care if you have to run Linux on a server and set up services to run on startup. If you do care, you can always switch to Slackware instead of upgrading your current distro.
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That was slightly amusing.
Can anyone link or give an elevator pitch about the systemd thing? I only know that it is a controversy, but haven't cared enough to know anything about it.
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Kind of. The added complexity and consequently the implications for stability could affect all users. I've been using systemd and it was rock-solid for me so I'm not that fussed. I've never tried upstart so I don't have a view on that.
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Can anyone link or give an elevator pitch about the systemd thing? I only know that it is a controversy, but haven't cared enough to know anything about it.
Haven't you read the comic? See what the pink Barbie says.
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Basically the Linux init system needed a refresh as it was getting a bit NFP for various reasons.
Two major competing replacements came along, upstart and systemd. There was a major war between them on complexity, architecture and nearly everything else.
Systemd seems to have won.Most users won't care/notice.
I might have some of it wrong but that's how I understand things.
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Haven't you read the comic? See what the pink Barbie says.
Oh, she totally convinced me that we should follow the votes. But like people who thought Obamacare was a good idea, I'm too stupid to understand this stuff.
Most users won't care/notice.
This has been my assumption, too. But I'm not really someone who administers servers or anything.
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My interaction with init.d so far was setting up scripts inside
/etc/init.d/blah
. Then you can do stuff likeservice blah start
,service blah restart
etc.Not sure if startd will differ and how.
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Ditto. But very minor stuff.
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It's all very similar, all those commands are still available from systemctl
e.g. systemctl start nginx.service
You have service files now to replace rc.conf though.
Edit: I've never had to do anything even slightly fancy though, maybe it gets very different when you want to do things like have a custom script to add firewall rules on service start etc..
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Ah yes, now I remember, I have to deal with this shit on a few Centos 7 machines. Luckily, they still have system.d wrappers, although they keep pestering you every time you use them.
I've decided. I hate systemd. I want init.d to stay. Whaah! Whaaah! Dont wanna systemd! Whaaaah!
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My understanding is that systemd is basically an implementation of a Windows-like init system, meaning, you can set it to automatically restart services when they crash and all kinds of nice things like that.
EDIT: basically it gives Linux all the features in this dialog:
Without needing to write 47,000 lines of shell-script PER SERVICE like before.
Because it slightly resembles Windows' implementation, and because the only reason to use Linux is irrational hate of Windows, a bunch of idiots have thrown a hissy-fit... but only AFTER systemd was already implemented by like 9/10ths of the most popular distros and is a dependency in GNOME. (So basically, it's too late buddy, give it up.)
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I'm just sick of having to guess every time I go into a new linux machine what services system it's using. On one of my boxes, when a service craps out, I just restart it manually using sudo and & because it's too much trouble to set anything up otherwise.
Pop quiz: How do you restart Apache?
- apachectl restart
- /etc/init.d/apache2 restart
- service apache2 restart
- restart apache2
- service httpd restart
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Pop quiz: How do you restart Apache?
apachectl restart
/etc/init.d/apache2 restart
service apache2 restart
restart apache2
service httpd restartLet the spirit of software FREEDOM guide you.
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Ah, so the answer is Start -> Apache Software Foundation -> Restart Apache :)
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Haven't used Apache or Redhat in a long time, but as I recall:
Debian-based: 1, 2, 3
Redhat-based: 1, 5
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Debian-based: 1, 2, 3
4 is the Ubuntu way. So the correctness of this statement has to do with whether you consider Ubuntu to be debian-based or sufficiently separate to be its own base.
I have boxes running debian, raspbian, ubuntu, and Red Hat, so I've given up on ever remembering and just try them all.
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Doesn't 1 always work regardless of the distribution?
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No.
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Let's have a thrilling conversation about which one of these 5 options to use, because that's so relevant here and such a fun and exciting thing to talk about.
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Can anyone link or give an elevator pitch about the systemd thing?
Lennart's pitchI did had a sad about the Linux logging system going all binary blob and shit, because the only binary blob logger I'd used was the Windows one and the Windows event logger blows goats. But in Debian at least, systemd comes with enough compatibility wrappers that all my old workflows still work. The only thing that's caused me grief so far has been this transmission-daemon configuration bug.
My boxes do all start up faster, and shut down way faster, with systemd than they did with sysvinit.
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Let's have a thrilling conversation about which one of these 5 options to use, because that's so relevant here and such a fun and exciting thing to talk about.
Let's dump another steaming pile of willfully ignorant into another Linux thread and see if we can make this one all about blakeyrat as well.
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Dude, @Yamikuronue was helping prove your point that Linux is a mess.
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Right; the first post did that. Then there were like 4 more that served no purpose except tedium.
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Am I the only one who found the juxtaposition of the narrative with those pictures fucking hilarious?
Pop quiz: How do you restart Apache?
Look in /etc/init then in /etc/init.d; usually you can reason it out from their contents pretty straightforwardly. The major issue seems to come about when people combine systems and have init scripts starting upstart services, or vice versa.
Re: Upstart vs Systemd
As usual with Linux, this was one of those non-fights that turned into a fight. Systemd was written to replace sysvinit. Upstart manages services. Canonical tried using it to replace part of what the old init system was doing because the old init system had been used to manage services. Since an init system isn't really ideal for that, Upstart was a good development for services. Then systemd came along to replace sysvinit and it has many good things about it, but it is also a massive clusterfuck of being everything to everyone that is probably a terrible idea in terms of architecture. It is undeniably an improvement over sysvinit, though. A good comparison: http://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Talk:Comparison_of_init_systemsI think the major opposition to systemd comes from that second row: "Hard-to-debug monolithic startup in undocumented C". I'm not sure if this has been fixed or what the status is since I stopped caring after I left my previous job. I still think Upstart doesn't belong on a list of init systems, even if it's used that way. But maybe that's due to the old init system being abused for managing services, which it should never have done.
And now I can blame the whole thing on Barbie.
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or give an elevator pitch about the systemd thing? I
From some reading I did this afternoon:
- pid 1 is special. If that process dies, so does your OS.
- init is pid 1. Always. It's the first thing to start and the last thing to quit.
- so init should be as simple as possible. It should (somehow - forking another process to do this is acceptable) start everything else, and be the foster parent of orphaned children so they don't zombie all over your process table.
- init on systemd is the complete opposite in that its become a monolithic beast encompassing things and functionality like udev, crontab, the kitchen sink and the washing machine.
- so when the washing machine leaks and shorts out the microwave, your house blows up.
This is somehow perceived as bad for some reason.
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http://blog.halon.org.uk/2014/11/barbie-the-debian-developer/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=barbie-the-debian-developer
doesn't
apache2ctl
live in/sbin
on a Debian system?
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/usr/sbin/apache2ctl on squeeze
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/usr/sbin/apache2ctl on squeeze
Same here on Wheezy. Well, that explains it, @Yamikuronue doesn't have it in her $PATH.
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Probably because she isn't running as a superuser.
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Probably because she isn't running as a superuser.
Feature request: Publicly visible "DUH!" flag.
Well, it is possibly useful info to *NiX illiterate I guess...
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You're so yesterday:
$docker run blinkmobile/apache-httpd
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init on systemd is the complete opposite in that its become a monolithic beast encompassing things and functionality like udev, crontab, the kitchen sink and the washing machine.
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I read somewhere that systemd includes a minimal http server, + libqrencode, but when I looked into it, it looked like it was added in such a way that it could be easily removed. Still not sure why a HTTP Server would be needed though...
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Not to mention, the answer to, "is it too monolithic" is, "who gives a shit?"
The Unix philosophy was created in like 1968. Does it have ANY relevance to the modern era? Demonstrably systems with a more monolithic way of starting and monitoring services are also a hell of a lot more successful than Linux is... hmmm!
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Myth: systemd is incompatible with shell scripts.
This is entirely bogus. We just don't use them for the boot
processAha, found the problem! Who do they think they are, doing things in not-shell? Everything in Linux has to be scripted in sh, because it's the Correct Way™.
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Aha, found the problem! Who do they think they are, doing things in not-shell? Everything in Linux has to be scripted in sh, because it's the Correct Way™.
s/Correct/Unix/
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Kill -1 <process-id to apache>
Or is that too old school?
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Does [the Unix philosophy] have ANY relevance to the modern era?
Yes. It's not much different than keeping your methods small and focused and avoiding stuff like God classes.
We can argue about how focused things should be, but saying thinking about stuff like this isn't relevant is pretty short sided.
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Sure think about it, but maybe if the result of following it is inferior software... maybe think about NOT thinking about it also?
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init on systemd is the complete opposite in that its become a monolithic beast encompassing things and functionality like udev, crontab, the kitchen sink and the washing machine.
hmph not nearly useful enough yet. call me back when it also has a clothes dryer.
;-)
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Let's have a thrilling conversation about which one of these 5 options to use, because that's so relevant here
It's less irrelevant here than it might be in another thread, and besides, since when do you agree with @codinghorror about staying on topic? (Warning: my @mention of him probably will earn you a teary-indian gif.)
such a fun and exciting thing to talk about.
You got something better to do? I assume if so, you wouldn't be posting here.
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You're so yesterday:
$docker run blinkmobile/apache-httpd
I wrote a batch script that forks 5 times and tries 'em all.
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No joke, it was included so that you could get your kernel crash dumps as a huge QR code rather than console spew.
Never you mind that most phones can't reliably read a QR code big enough to encode an entire dump. Nope. Let's not even think about that one for a second.
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Seriously? They are including a small HTTP server and a libqrencode for something as stupid as that? no wonder systemd has 7 CVEs already
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My understanding is that systemd is basically an implementation of a Windows-like init system, meaning, you can set it to automatically restart services when they crash and all kinds of nice things like that.
It's that and more, since it also incorporates things like logging (which wouldn't be too bad if it didn't log to a binary format that apparently gets corrupted easily, and when this was brought to developers' attention, the response was "just delete the file").
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since when do you agree with @codinghorror about staying on topic?
I don't give a shit about off-topic, I give a shit about boring. Different thing entirely.