Pro-Gamergate is pro-life



  • I'm generally pro-gamergate, I just didn't care enough to bother arguing. Who cares if gaming journalists are corrupt? Journalism seems to be on its way out as a thing anyway.

    But then this guy ranted out my opinions to the letter. I can relate and agree with every last word.

    To contrast with the anti-gamergate side, here's a novella by the SJW-friendly movie bob:

    Putting aside meaningless "anonymous death threats" crap, Bob's general point seems to be: "SJW philosophy is objectively Good, therefore everything we do in the name of it is Good". This Polish dude counters him nicely.

    Over the last decade, media were taken over by people who think that their ideals, opinions and way of life are superior to others and so they have the mission to tell others how to live, what to think and what to do.

    Those people have learned that there is a very easy way of manipulating others with guilt and fake goodwill. They will tell you that you should be ashamed, because you are privileged. You are white, you are healthy, you are rich and it's your fault that there are others who are not as lucky as you. So you must redeem those crimes by doing what those social justice warriors think will please those who are not privileged enough.

    And if you don't, they will jump on you and give you a hard time. Nobody wants to be called sexist, misogynistic, rape culture supporter, and everybody kind of agrees that it's great to help people who were not as lucky as them, so for some time this works.


  • SockDev

    'Gamergate' is nothing more than a thinly veiled excuse for total shits to spread hate, misogyny, and misandry. It has never been about ethics in journalism, and never will. And it's setting the image of gaming back about thirty years.

    The sooner the whole 'Gamergate' movement fucks off into the heart of the Sun, the better.



  • Ditto for SJW-s.



  • Activists gonna activate, imo.

    Here's a game called queers in love at the end of the world.



  • @Buddy said:

    Activists gonna activate, imo.

    Here's a game called queers in love at the end of the world.

    Ugh! I don't have time to play that game. I'm a busy guy.



  • @cartman82 said:

    "SJW philosophy is objectively Good, therefore everything we do in the name of it is Good".

    This is the most succinct summary of SJW that I've seen (and I've read it other places before). It's not original to SJWs, of course. And while an objective observer will note that the definition of what it means to be a bien pensant changes over time, views that were cool a short time ago are now beyond the pale, and we have to ignore that history.



  • I don't know what gamergate or SJW are, but sounds like I'm not missing much.



  • Don't worry, some day the SJWs will find you.



  • Because "ignorance" is a privilege.



  • I didn't pay much attention to the gamergate issue (is it still a thing?), but I do mostly of agree with the first interview in the OP.

    My position is that both sides are wrong. The gaming industry is not perfect, which means there is and always will be room for improvement. But the way to improve it is not to write pissy articles and denounce the people making games you don't like. You fix it by supporting the people making the games you do like.

    However, trolling gets clicks and clicks are money, so journalists choose to attack what they see as the guilty (and popular) developers over giving exposure to the indies doing things right.

    On the other hand, identifying with a movement like gamergate carries too much baggage. People that disagree with you won't argue with you, they'll look to discredit your position by bringing up the worst that the movement can offer. And there is going to be plenty to find, since just as SJW twist valid claims to their own ends, many people see a counter movement as a way to shield reprehensible behaviour (like death threats).

    So, as usual, the right thing to do is to think for yourself and try not to let your fondness for something blind you to it's faults. And stop clicking clickbait articles, as it only feeds the trolls.



  • @ijij said:

    privilege

    I only started seeing this innocent word used like this about a year ago.

    My manifesto is that anyone using Privilege in this way will be mercilessly kicked in the shins until they promise never to utter it again.

    'Check your privilege' as a construction (let alone the attempted meaning) makes you sound like you have a learning disability.



  • @cartman82 said:

    I'm generally pro-gamergate, I just didn't care enough to bother arguing.

    I stayed out of it because I didn't understand what it was. Something about a guy mad at his ex? Something to do with misogyny?

    I still don't know if I'm pro-gamergate or anti-gamergate, because I have limited time to do research, but I'm generally anti-hate, anti-violence and pro-mind-your-own-business. Some might even call me a hater of hate (although I forget who it was).

    Frankly it looks like a gigantic waste of time. My primary concern is this:

    @cartman82 said:

    Those people have learned that there is a very easy way of manipulating others with guilt and fake goodwill.

    ... among other things, including the hate I was referring to. In my opinion, this is how the human race falls: a few murder each other, and the rest of us are caught in the crossfire. Somehow the murderers remain unmurdered.

    The point is, I'm starting to think people need to learn to be less easily manipulated. This isn't just fact-checking lies anymore, it's letting emotional tangents lead thinking. I'm sure this is fine is everyone only ever feels love, but we know that isn't happening.

    Perhaps it's close to home for me because I know people who read the daily mail as an actual source of information rather than a fictional comic or source of entertainment. Then again, I suspect everyone knows a daily mail reader or Britain First reposter or their national equivalent.



  • I'm not privileged.

    If I was, I would have some extra <sarcasm> tags lying around that I could have tossed on my last post...


    Filed under: So, I'm agreeing with you.



  • @ijij said:

    Because "ignorance" is a privilege.

    Another thing that bugs me. When people think their ignorance is equivalent or better than knowledge.


  • kills Dumbledore

    @Zecc said:

    SJW

    Social Justice Warrior

    @Zecc said:

    gamergate

    people on the internet getting pissy at each other and claiming it's a strong moral campaign. Like most other internet based Thingygate movements


  • area_deu

    @Jaloopa said:

    "Social" "Justice" Warrior

    Added some quotation marks for you.



  • Pull on the thread...all the way...Zecc is simply not keeping on all of the news (thats not fit to print).

    There's ignorance that's ≪ Marie Antoinette.


    Filed under: ooh, I'm using that &Lt thing I found this week!


  • kills Dumbledore

    Thanks. I was trying to come up with a snarky explanation, but realised I don't know or care enough about SJWism to be able to



  • Good thing this forum software is unhackable - otherwise I would think there was a little flower growing in the lower corner of this topic.

    WTHeck??

    EDIT: Okay, not just this topic, all over.



  • @Shoreline said:

    Another thing that bugs me. When people think their ignorance is equivalent or better than knowledge.

    Sounds like some of my customers. One insisted that the product should work when the batteries were flat. And they didn't mean it had to be rechargeable quickly, or similar, but that it should basically never stop working.
    Thinking back on it I should have suggested we design in an RTG.


    Edit: I didn't phrase that very well. Their view was that we had failed because batteries go flat, totally regardless of the timescale they went flat under. It it lasted a hundred years they would have still been angry at us. And no fancy physics, chemistry or common-sense was going to sway their opinion. (no, mains wasn't an option. And we would have probably been incompetent because of power-cuts in that case)


  • area_deu

    I think it's a friend of the spider.



  • It's Remembrance Sunday this weekend (UK), and Remembrance Day (or Armistice Day/Veterans Day) on Tuesday 11th.

    Edit: Tidied up and linked...There are a lot of similar days that coincide in various countries.



  • I think really what this comes down to is a matter of extremes.

    Are there valid points to be made about gaming journalism and the like? yeah probably.

    Are there examples of gender/race/sexual orientation inequality? yeah probably.

    There are extremists on both sides of this argument, and I think the problem I see is that both sides are essentially saying this:

    "Ignore the extremists on my side, they don't make my points invalid. People in your movement have said/done this, therefore you are wrong"

    No one can have their cake and eat it. you can't tell people to disregard the extremists in your movement whilst disregarding another movement due to it's extremists. That doesn't make sense.

    having said all that sitting on the fence sort of stuff. I think on the whole gamergate is a net negative. I don't think you can argue anything else when people like Felicia Day are targeted just for saying they are staying out of it. Particularly as other, more vocal, male individuals are not targeted (Will Wheaton).

    I think if there is anything positive to be said by members of the gamergate side of things, they need to say it away from gamergate, because it's outwardly regarded as a toxic movement, and that means even if people agree, they can't formally agree because it's massively damaging. If change is warranted, it needs to be separate from gamergate, if it can't get enough steam without the damaging involvement of gamergate, then that change isn't warranted.



  • @Shoreline said:

    I still don't know if I'm pro-gamergate or anti-gamergate, because I have limited time to do research, but I'm generally anti-hate, anti-violence and pro-mind-your-own-business. Some might even call me a hater of hate (although I forget who it was).

    Anti-hate, anti-violence => push anti-gamergate. There are a LOT of assholes in the SJW club, but less outright "I'll follow you and murder you bitch" kind of stuff (stemming mostly from all the power being in their hands).

    Pro mind your own business => push pro-gamergate, obviously.


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    Can someone tell me what the fuck an SJW is? I missed that part of this particular clusterfuck.



  • (Social Justice Warrior)



  • @Cursorkeys said:

    It's Remembrance Sunday this weekend.

    Edit: Wiki says it's called Armistice Day in other parts of the world.

    Alrighty, I see the Poppy-ness of the flower. Carry on.


    Needless pendant-ness: Tuesday would be Armistice Day, Veteran's Day in US.
    Obviously, Remembrance Sunday would, by definition, be Sunday
    EDIT: All hail @Cursorkeys for diligence!! ;)

    @PJH did you plant the flower?



  • @Weng said:

    Can someone tell me what the fuck an SJW is? I missed that part of this particular clusterfuck.

    Social Justice Warrior.

    @ijij said:

    @PJH did you plant the flower?

    Yup.


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    .... So the two sides of this alleged debate are "People who want better ethics in journalism" and "People who want social justice"?

    NOPE. This isn't a debate about issues. This is a gang war, because the only intersection between those two groups is when they fight about unrelated shit.

    Opinion formed, judgement passed, Gamergate is stupid and anyone who actually cares about any of the issues needs to move on and try again later.



  • @PJH said:

    Yup.

    Thank you. Nice touch.



  • @Cursorkeys said:

    It's Remembrance Sunday this weekend (UK), and Remembrance Day (or Armistice Day/Veterans Day) on Tuesday 11th.

    Ah, I forget about the flower thing there. We celebrate Veterans Day on the 11th in the US, but there's nothing particular about it like the flower.



  • @ijij said:

    Needless pendant-ness: Tuesday would be Armistice Day, Veteran's Day in US. Obviously, Remembrance Sunday would, by definition, be Sunday EDIT: All hail @Cursorkeys for diligence!!

    You weren't supposed to spot that, I'm no Hanzo obviously. I had a bit of a brain-fart on Sunday != Tuesday.

    @boomzilla said:

    Ah, I forget about the flower thing there. We celebrate Veterans Day on the 11th in the US, but there's nothing particular about it like the flower.

    I wasn't aware that the Poppy symbolism was particular to the UK, that's interesting to know.


  • Grade A Premium Asshole

    @boomzilla said:

    We celebrate Veterans Day on the 11th in the US, but there's nothing particular about it like the flower.

    You are at least partially wrong about that. I had lots of family in WWII so I remember the VFW and other groups selling poppies around Veteran's Day. Perhaps it is just not as prevalent here in the colonies?

    You better be careful @PJH, before long you will be targeted because you are not doing custom CSS for every holiday in the world. Social justice and all that. ;)


  • SockDev

    @Intercourse said:

    Social justice and all that.

    i somehow doubt we'd tolerate that kind of bullcrap here. There's social justice and there's taking the idea of social justice a little too far.

    I'm all for the former, but the latter will be mercilessly mocked because if you want to waste your time on frivolity then i'm more than happy to give you plenty of frivolity to waste it on.



  • @Intercourse said:

    You better be careful @PJH, before long you will be targeted because you are not doing custom CSS for every holiday in the world. Social justice and all that.

    I'll leave that to Google and their front page logo. There's (currently) no mechanism for date-specific CSS on here - it's all manually done.



  • @Intercourse said:

    You are at least partially wrong about that. I had lots of family in WWII so I remember the VFW and other groups selling poppies around Veteran's Day. Perhaps it is just not as prevalent here in the colonies?

    Could be. I'm sure there are places in the US with specific traditions, but I've never noticed any, and I don't frequent VFW halls, etc. My family that served in WWII didn't like to talk about their experiences.

    @Intercourse said:

    You better be careful @PJH, before long you will be targeted because you are not doing custom CSS for every holiday in the world.

    Heh...what would be nice is a title attribute or something to explain what it's for.



  • A game I really loved was The Castle Doctrine. I stopped playing after some of the balance issues got worked out and it became just a bit too hard for me.

    Anyway, there was some drama about that game that I didn't really follow, but the way I remember it was that this guy posted an article called (warning: this is some incredible ivory tower shit) why I will never play The Castle Doctrine, and some people on twitter got riled up, and I remember the people on the game forum trying to tell Rohrer don't worry about it, some people just overreact to anything, but Rohrer absolutely cared about it; he's the type of person who didn't tell his kids about gender because he didn't want to influence them, he'd never meant to hurt anyone (well, he kind of did, but only to share a particular type of pain he'd felt at one time in his life, he didn't want to generate any new hurt).

    Anyway, sometimes I worry about some of the things Jeff says or does that might upset that type of ideological puritan---I think there was an article where he said something like “if you get harassed in your comments section, it's your fault”, or how there's no blocking feature cf. how upset a lot of people got when twitter tried to change how blocking works---and I think about how hard he sometimes takes criticism, and I wonder if there isn't some kind of massive shitstorm on the horizon here.

    Anyway, about gamesgate: games journalism has been fucked since forever, I think its just typical that it took someone like Zoe Quinn before people suddenly started complaining.


  • Grade A Premium Asshole

    @boomzilla said:

    I don't frequent VFW halls

    I don't either, but my father did because they sold stiff drinks cheaply.

    @boomzilla said:

    My family that served in WWII didn't like to talk about their experiences.

    Likewise, but as two of my uncles and several cousins died in WWII, Veteran's Day was always a big deal in our family. Since becoming an adult, I do not recall ever seeing the significance of poppies. It is just a fond memory from childhood. That is why I said you were only partially wrong. I believe it is a tradition here, just not one that anyone really knows about.



  • The problem is that:

    1. The GG label itself was hijacked by the mudslingers and flown into the ground with the aid of death-threats, needless SJW ivory-towering, and other random garbage.
    2. Both sides apply the "If you're not with me, you're against me and support my identified opposition" fallacy mercilessly, leaving no room whatsoever for serious discourse about the underlying issue (rampant corruption in games journalism, which leaves unfunded/underfunded indies high and dry while allowing :poop: from big-money publishing houses to skate by on biased reviews bought and paid for by ad money), or in some cases, even a chance to oppose both sides as useless mudslinging morons.

    So, my advice to @cartman82 and others, drop the label. If you want to kick the corrupt bastards in the rump, say so directly. Don't try to reorient a label that has become stuck in this sort of mudslinging, because the :pig: :pig2: that are involved on both sides of this 'movement' will drag you down into the mud wallow with them.



  • @tarunik said:

    So, my advice to @cartman82 and others, drop the label. If you want to kick the corrupt bastards in the rump, say so directly. Don't try to reorient a label that has become stuck in this sort of mudslinging, because the that are involved on both sides of this 'movement' will drag you down into the mud wallow with them.

    Oh no no nooo. No.

    I'm not a part or an active supporter of "gamergate", whatever that means. All game "journalism" can go to hell, as far as I care. It's not like it's a real thing anyway.

    I just get annoyed by SJW's smug arrogance and speech suppression all over the internet. And I liked this guy's rant about it. That's it.



  • Should I press F to pay respects?


  • SockDev

    no clearly it should be R for Relo-err ... respects.



  • "It's about ethics in games journalism, now, let me rant about how Anita Sarkeesian is a Professional victim"

    Literally every discussion I've seen online from the "pro" side somehow devolves into them making claims about the various women involved. Worse still, the original event that supposedly "sparked" this- the alleged involvement of a Kotaku writer with Zoe Quinn- is completely irrelevant because he never even wrote a review of her shitty game or even anything about the game at all, meaning the calls for "ethics in games journalism" based on that corruption are idiotic at best.



  • @cartman82 said:

    Sigh.... Fuck it. Gamergate thread

    No.



  • @tarunik said:

    The GG label itself was hijacked by the mudslingers and flown into the ground with the aid of death-threats, needless SJW ivory-towering, and other random garbage.

    Actually no. People who were getting harassed already started saying 'GG DID IT!' and some people believed them. GG has no head. The first people to be harassed were wizardchan, and those who attacked them are most assuredly not those who side with GG.

    The people spouting GG == hate are really not paying attention at all.



  • @Magus said:

    Actually no. People who were getting harassed already started saying 'GG DID IT!' and some people believed them. GG has no head. The first people to be harassed were wizardchan, and those who attacked them are most assuredly not those who side with GG.

    The people spouting GG == hate are really not paying attention at all.


    I agree that it's certainly possible that the harassers didn't start off under the GG banner, but it got plastered on their ass, which is where all the 'GG == hate' comes from. The best bet at this point for those who take the underlying issue seriously, as I already explained upthread, is to ditch the label, as the mudslinging :pig: :pig2: won't.

    Also, did you catch me lumping the SJW ivory-towering into the same garbage pile as the harassment? Or did that just *whoosh* over your head?



  • What I don't understand is why you would need or want a tag in the first place. If you're using it as shorthand (like SJW is shorthand for "pissy trolls"), you have to understand that the tag means whatever the reader understands it to mean. Don't complain that people misunderstand what GG stands for. Stop using the dumb label and actually use words to explain your point.



  • You're still missing the point though. Far more people identify with GG than against it. That implies that less people consider it toxic than think it's important. You have people who were formerly neutral, like Total Biscuit, joining in recently. The fact is, it's working. GG is funding womens' and anti-bullying charities. Intel and other large corporations are pulling ads from Polygon.

    Those against it have tried to destroy the Fine Young Capitalists, and are still trying to ignore the damage this has caused.

    I'd be all for abandoning the label if it were truly corrupted beyond recovery. But currently, it is not. There is a small group of people pressing a false interpretation, but they are failing. That is where many of you are misunderstanding this whole thing. They will continue to fail as they have for months, and suggesting abandoning the label will do nothing more than encourage more people to see it in a negative light, along with gamers in general.



  • @tarunik said:

    The best bet at this point for those who take the underlying issue seriously, as I already explained upthread, is to ditch the label,

    What would stop the anti-GGers from smearing whatever new label was used with the same accusations?


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    @hungrier said:

    What would stop the anti-GGers from smearing whatever new label was used with the same accusations?

    I'll field this one: how about not having a new label at all?

    Filed under: next question please


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