WTF-Inc is hiring
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@Snooder said:
My parents are starting to get pretty insistent about me giving up this whole "programming" thing and take the bar, so being able to point to a better paying career path would help a lot in keeping them out of my hair.
Pretty sure lawyerin' pay beats out anything tech, for now.
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@Snooder said:
What were the requirements for the job you currently have?
I have no idea. I just networked my way into it; I assume there's a written job requirement somewhere. Also I don't know what my job title is really.
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Blakey Rat
Curriculum Vitae
Work Experience
2010-Present
I Don't Know Really
Responsibilities: I assume there's a written job requirement somewhere.
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I don't know about you guys, but I've always worked on small teams where I end up doing a little bit of everything and nobody gives a shit what your job description or title is.
In the last year, I've done work on Ruby (Rails and no), C#.net, JavaScript, MySQL, Postgres, MS SQL, Linux administration, Windows administration, cloud servers, cloud storage, writing specs, discussing specs with clients, etc. D3.js, Raphael.js, HTML5 canvas, WebSockets (client and server), Firefox plug-in development, Chrome plug-in development, etc. EDIT: Heroku cloud shit, making a fix to a PHP app. Web analytics implementation, web analytics scripting.
I do "stuff".
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@blakeyrat said:
@snoofle said:
Must have 3 years of experience
So in addition to everything else, he has to be stuck in a 3-year-long groundhog day loop?
Given the class of programmers that'll apply, the candidate will have actually just done the same thing each day for 3 years because he doesn't really "get" loops.
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@blakeyrat said:
Guys I make significantly more than $70k, I live in a city with significantly less cost-of-living than New York, and I'm a slacker who you all think is incompetent also.
OK, I make significantly less, but indeed, I pay about $950 per month on mortgage for a 120m^2 house in front of a park, at 10 minutes walking from the historical/shopping center of a medium-sized, decent European city. I stayed for a couple of weeks in Birmingham, Alabama, and not for 10 times my current salary would I consider living there. So I guess the context makes a difference too.Just to ground you.
BTW, I pay $2500 per year in health insurance for a family.
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@TGV said:
I stayed for a couple of weeks in Birmingham, Alabama, and not for 10 times my current salary would I consider living there.
Well duh, me too. You picked one of our shittiest cities.
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The original Birmingham is reasonably shitty aswell. Does this sort of similarity hold for most namesake cities?
Oxford is rather nice.... How's the one in Massachusetts?
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@DrPepper said:
OK, so I'm a contractor; I work for (and am a full-time employee of) a contracting firm. They pay me a salary, and bill the customer for my time. Right now I'm getting (gross, pre-tax) about 60% of the bill rate. Is that normal? I should add I get bennies -- vacation, health care, dental, etc like a normal full-time employee. I'm getting about $90,000 per year. Sound right?
That depends on the average comp for a full time employee with similar skills/years of experience in your locale/industry. If you really want to verify it in context, post your resume and ask the headhunters who call with jobs similar to yours what the going rate is for a full time position.
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@blakeyrat said:
Guys I make significantly more than $70k, I live in a city with significantly less cost-of-living than New York, and I'm a slacker who you all think is incompetent also.
Just to ground you.
Not incompetent, just rub people the wrong way. At least IMHO. Then again, most of the regulars here tend to be douchbaggy from time to time. I've been playing along because, well, when in Rome.
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@Sutherlands said:
@TGV said:
I got the impression with all the complaints about H-1B's I keep seeing, that it was an immigration problem...
Yes, that's why the US has such an emigration problem.@snoofle said:
@skotl: The best part is the salary range peaks at $70K so even if a senior person with some of that walks in the door, there's no way they'll accept the job at that rate of pay!
Jezus Christ on a tricycle! I qualify for about 50%, but I earn just over half that. I guess they pay such salaries because it's a part of the world where nobody wants to live.
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@eViLegion said:
I don't want to burst your bubble, but if you have to say that you're an expert at anything, then you're not an expert.
Some of those things I can genuinely say I'm an expert in, on the grounds that I wrote (significant chunks of) the implementation of the technology in the first place, and have had people calling me expert in them for a while. (I thought they were full of shit for ages, but I've got independent metrics that make me suspect it must be genuinely true.) However, my point was that it is entirely possible for a single organisation (in my case, a university) to assemble real expertise in their staff in all of that laundry list of technologies; the assertion that I was responding to was calling into question that it was possible for any organisation to have that sort of expertise available.Of course, that list actually looks like HR asked “what does the guy we're replacing know” and then added a demand for more expertise with all of the items while cutting the salary offered.
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@Snooder said:
so being able to point to a better paying career path would help a lot in keeping them out of my hair.
Dear Mom, Dad,
Please stop telling me how to live my life.
And stop sending me those awful pink striped shirts.
I love you,
- Snooder
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@PJH said:
@Sutherlands said:
@TGV said:
Jezus Christ on a tricycle! I qualify for about 50%, but I earn just over half that. I guess they pay such salaries because it's a part of the world where nobody wants to live.
<sarcasm>Yes, that's why the US has such an emigration problem.</sarcasm>
I got the impression with all the complaints about H-1B's I keep seeing, that it was an immigration problem...STFY.
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@boomzilla said:
@PJH said:
Ah.@Sutherlands said:
@TGV said:
Jezus Christ on a tricycle! I qualify for about 50%, but I earn just over half that. I guess they pay such salaries because it's a part of the world where nobody wants to live.
<sarcasm>Yes, that's why the US has such an emigration problem.</sarcasm>
I got the impression with all the complaints about H-1B's I keep seeing, that it was an immigration problem...STFY.
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Wait... They don't want an expert in Go?
I call shenanigans.
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Having read the front page I take my application back
there is no way I want to replace snoofle!
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@dkf said:
However, my point was that it is entirely possible for a single organisation (in my case, a university) to assemble real expertise in their staff in all of that laundry list of technologies;
Nobody working at a university knows shit. Professors and staff.
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@blakeyrat said:
Nobody working at a university knows shit. Professors and staff.
Correction: Nobody working at a university that would let you on campus knows shit.
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@Snooder said:
My guess -- if you understand why the CodeSODs are bad, then you're way better qualified than most people. And if you've posted on TDWTF, esp a front-page article, then you're way beyond even that. But seriously, it's not the years of experience, but the ability to deliver a solution to a problem that is required; all job requirements are just trying to say "we need someone who knows xxx because that's what is needed to solve our problem". I've worked with guys fresh out of college who can code circles around me; and I've worked with 55 year old guys with 30+ years of experience who couldn't find their way out of a corner.@blakeyrat said:
Guys I make significantly more than $70k, I live in a city with significantly less cost-of-living than New York, and I'm a slacker who you all think is incompetent also.
Just to ground you.
What were the requirements for the job you currently have?
My parents are starting to get pretty insistent about me giving up this whole "programming" thing and take the bar, so being able to point to a better paying career path would help a lot in keeping them out of my hair.
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@DrPepper said:
OK, so I'm a contractor; I work for (and am a full-time employee of) a contracting firm. They pay me a salary, and bill the customer for my time. Right now I'm getting (gross, pre-tax) about 60% of the bill rate. Is that normal? I should add I get bennies -- vacation, health care, dental, etc like a normal full-time employee. I'm getting about $90,000 per year. Sound right?
No, this is a bad situation. You are getting the worst of both worlds: a contractor working for a salary. You really should consider working for yourself.
Have a talk with your employer. Bottom line is that you could work for them 10 months a year for $60/hr and you would have the same income before tax (and 2 months off); for them it would be cheaper since they would not pay benefits, payroll tax, etc. You would get less benefits but you can manage your needs better than the employer; in most companies the grunts are contributing more on the insurance plan so the higher-ups get everything for free. Without that load you can wiggle your rate up, and if you are for some reason addicted to work you could work one of those two extra months and it would all go to your pockets.
Also if you get a good accountant you can play with numbers; move stuff from one year to the other, jack up the expense account, borrow company money and use it for your IRA then pay it back partially with tax refunds, tune the salary/dividends ratio, etc. and save a lot of money.
$60/hr is very low so you should be able to do better but that's basically what you are getting right now, except that you work 12 months instead of 10 for the same amount and you get fucked by the tax man.
As for the 60%: it depends on the industry. Some consulting firm bill at 4x while other bill at 1.25x, so you are in the ball park. The good thing is that at that rate if they don't have work they will put you on the bench and still pay you. If you were more expensive it would be a more rocky road.
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@dhromed said:
@Snooder said:
so being able to point to a better paying career path would help a lot in keeping them out of my hair.
Dear Mom, Dad,
Please stop telling me how to live my life.
And stop sending me those awful pink striped shirts.
I love you,
- SnooderI think you missed the episode where it was revealed that he gets the pink striped shirts from a sugar daddy he met on vacation in San Jose, Costa Rica.
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@Ronald said:
@DrPepper said:
Every time you talk you make me feel underpaid. >.> Whatever happened to that job in Phoenix I could have applied for?!OK, so I'm a contractor; I work for (and am a full-time employee of) a contracting firm. They pay me a salary, and bill the customer for my time. Right now I'm getting (gross, pre-tax) about 60% of the bill rate. Is that normal? I should add I get bennies -- vacation, health care, dental, etc like a normal full-time employee. I'm getting about $90,000 per year. Sound right?
No, this is a bad situation. You are getting the worst of both worlds: a contractor working for a salary. You really should consider working for yourself.
Have a talk with your employer. Bottom line is that you could work for them 10 months a year for $60/hr and you would have the same income before tax (and 2 months off); for them it would be cheaper since they would not pay benefits, payroll tax, etc. You would get less benefits but you can manage your needs better than the employer; in most companies the grunts are contributing more on the insurance plan so the higher-ups get everything for free. Without that load you can wiggle your rate up, and if you are for some reason addicted to work you could work one of those two extra months and it would all go to your pockets.
Also if you get a good accountant you can play with numbers; move stuff from one year to the other, jack up the expense account, borrow company money and use it for your IRA then pay it back partially with tax refunds, tune the salary/dividends ratio, etc. and save a lot of money.
$60/hr is very low so you should be able to do better but that's basically what you are getting right now, except that you work 12 months instead of 10 for the same amount and you get fucked by the tax man.
As for the 60%: it depends on the industry. Some consulting firm bill at 4x while other bill at 1.25x, so you are in the ball park. The good thing is that at that rate if they don't have work they will put you on the bench and still pay you. If you were more expensive it would be a more rocky road.
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@Snooder said:
@blakeyrat said:
Guys I make significantly more than $70k, I live in a city with significantly less cost-of-living than New York, and I'm a slacker who you all think is incompetent also.
Just to ground you.
What were the requirements for the job you currently have?
My parents are starting to get pretty insistent about me giving up this whole "programming" thing and take the bar, so being able to point to a better paying career path would help a lot in keeping them out of my hair.Maybe you should consider making them aware of how many unemployed/underemployed law school graduates there are out there. I'm not sure they've all passed the bar, but it's a field I'd be careful about. You may get paid less as a programmer, but you'll always get paid.
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@Bobrot said:
@Snooder said:
@blakeyrat said:
Guys I make significantly more than $70k, I live in a city with significantly less cost-of-living than New York, and I'm a slacker who you all think is incompetent also.
Just to ground you.
What were the requirements for the job you currently have?
My parents are starting to get pretty insistent about me giving up this whole "programming" thing and take the bar, so being able to point to a better paying career path would help a lot in keeping them out of my hair.Maybe you should consider making them aware of how many unemployed/underemployed law school graduates there are out there. I'm not sure they've all passed the bar, but it's a field I'd be careful about. You may get paid less as a programmer, but you'll always get paid.
That was precisely my train of thought when I decided to take my post-graduation break and spend it buffing my resume and applying for jobs instead of studying for the bar.
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@Bobrot said:
Maybe you should consider making them aware of how many unemployed/underemployed law school graduates there are out there. I'm not sure they've all passed the bar, but it's a field I'd be careful about. You may get paid less as a programmer, but you'll always get paid.Also, from everything I've heard, starting out as a junior lawyer really sucks. 80-100 hour weeks are the norm. I don't think it gets much better when you climb the ladder, either.
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I've never understood why anyone would want to be a lawyer or any sort. Human law is the most tedious, arbitrary nonsense there is. The idea of having to deal with it constantly is just dreadful... just dreadful.
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@eViLegion said:
I've never understood why anyone would want to be a lawyer or any sort. Human law is the most tedious, arbitrary nonsense there is. The idea of having to deal with it constantly is just dreadful... just dreadful.
In a word, money.
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@boomzilla said:
@Bobrot said:
Maybe you should consider making them aware of how many unemployed/underemployed law school graduates there are out there. I'm not sure they've all passed the bar, but it's a field I'd be careful about. You may get paid less as a programmer, but you'll always get paid.
Also, from everything I've heard, starting out as a junior lawyer really sucks. 80-100 hour weeks are the norm. I don't think it gets much better when you climb the ladder, either.
Naw, it's not quite that bad. That's only if you get hired at one of those ridiculous firms in NY or something. The people I know who do have jobs seem to have plenty of time to play video games after work.
Honestly, I rather liked the months I spent interning after my 2nd year of law school. I'm just not willing to risk having to spend a year or so being unemployed and living off the good graces of family like a couple buddies of mine are doing. Hard to explain that fear of failure to family who think you are brilliant and can do anything you set your mind to though.
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@eViLegion said:
Human law is the most tedious, arbitrary nonsense there is.
When I got my law degree I tried representing rocks, but it didn't work out so well. Plants weren't much better.
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@Sutherlands said:
Whatever happened to that job in Phoenix I could have applied for?!
I don't know about the job, I've been working like a sweatshop intern for the last few weeks. My biggest client has a new marketing VP and he is a "e-pioneer" (says him) and he wants batshit crazy stuff and of course it has to work yesterday. Because of this project I had to change my rate structure; for the last years I was billing on a daily basis, getting a flat fee whether I work 5 minutes or 23h in the day for a client. But I'm on 16h-18h days lately so I switched them to an hourly rate. Pretty soon they'll have to re-mortage the building if they keep approving the sci-fi shit this guy is asking for.
Anyways that job in Phoenix is not a good opportunity. That place is awful, the building smells like a cat was left in there alone for months, and when I go there I always try to have someone else push the elevator buttons because they look greasy and disease-ridden. Also the reception girl used to be a pretty little thing but she left (probably because of the smell) and her replacement is a fat bitch who won't even bring faxes to the conference room.
If you want to boost your income, there are four magical steps, each one will be worth it:
- Buy clothes. The rule of thumb is to never wear clothes that as a whole are worth less than $1000, never wear the same outfit twice a week and avoid a regular schedule ("blue suit thursday" will ruin the image you try to maintain). You may think that this is ludicrous but it's not. Unless you own a social network worth billions, looking like a wealthy consultant is the fastest way to become one.
- Get a security clearance. You need to be sponsored for that, the best way is to work for a consulting firm that does business for the military so you can get to the point quickly. Low rates at first but terrific networking value. It takes a while to get a clearance so start early.
- Incorporate a business (it's pretty cheap - depending on the state it can be as low as $50 (Wyoming), even N-Y is like $120) and find a good accountant.
- Start answering RFPs. Since by then you have a clearance, you get automatically short-listed for gigs where a clearance is needed (it takes too long for people without a clearance to get one in the RFP window). Focus on small contracts (below 250k), the big firms apply on those but it's some low-level clerk that does the filing because it's not worth the effort for them, so it's easy to shine if you put some work into it. Once you set foot in an organization and you make the client happy, they will often tweak future RFPs to make sure you're the one winning them.
Well there are more than one way to skin a cat but this one works.
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@Ronald said:
Buy clothes. The rule of thumb is to never wear clothes that as a whole are worth less than $1000, never wear the same outfit twice a week and avoid a regular schedule ("blue suit thursday" will ruin the image you try to maintain). You may think that this is ludicrous but it's not. Unless you own a social network worth billions, looking like a wealthy consultant is the fastest way to become one.
This is a brilliant troll. Unless you're serious.
Your other bits of advice are serious... you can't be serious about the suit... wait... *brain asplode*
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@blakeyrat said:
@Ronald said:Buy clothes. The rule of thumb is to never wear clothes that as a whole are worth less than $1000, never wear the same outfit twice a week and avoid a regular schedule ("blue suit thursday" will ruin the image you try to maintain). You may think that this is ludicrous but it's not. Unless you own a social network worth billions, looking like a wealthy consultant is the fastest way to become one.
This is a brilliant troll. Unless you're serious.Your other bits of advice are serious... you can't be serious about the suit... wait... *brain asplode*
And that is why some of us are just fine with being a cog in some random company, so that advice like this is not applicable. The higher pay you can get doing some kinds of consulting work just isn't worth it.
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@Ronald said:
Incorporate a business (it's pretty cheap - depending on the state it can be as low as $50 (Wyoming), even N-Y is like $120) and find a good accountant.
I was more put off by the busywork required for incorporation. There are a lot of formal processes to uphold. Is a LLC really that much worse?
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@blakeyrat said:
@Ronald said:
Buy clothes. The rule of thumb is to never wear clothes that as a whole are worth less than $1000, never wear the same outfit twice a week and avoid a regular schedule ("blue suit thursday" will ruin the image you try to maintain). You may think that this is ludicrous but it's not. Unless you own a social network worth billions, looking like a wealthy consultant is the fastest way to become one.
This is a brilliant troll. Unless you're serious.
Your other bits of advice are serious... you can't be serious about the suit... wait... *brain asplode*
There is a guy I know who lately got a $300 per hour Datawarehouse Architect gig. The night before the meeting with the client he called me and asked what are the top 5 wikipedia articles he should read on the subject because he had zero data expertise (seriously). He was hired. His own assessment of his skills is "to look sharp and nod in a thoughtful manner".
If he had gone to that meeting wearing a bestbuy uniform (slacks and a cheap polo) even with all the expertise in the world they would have laughed him out of the building. Instead he went there looking the part, and he got the part.
Dressing poorly is a career killer. Unless you work in a startup, but most of them don't pay shit and go belly-up before the stock plan is worth a penny.
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@Ronald said:
Dressing poorly is a career killer.
In Phoenix???
I find that hard to believe. I'd believe a stuffy East Coast city, like Baltimore or Boston, but Phoenix? No way. Not buying it.
Here in Seattle people would see through a stuffed shirt in roughly 17 milliseconds. Nobody who knows their shit wears a $1000 suit. Nobody.
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@Ronald said:
For once, you're not completely wrong. Most people can earn a lot more than they do for the same work, and those aren't terrible tips.If you want to boost your income, there are four magical steps, each one will be worth it:
- Buy clothes. The rule of thumb is to never wear clothes that as a whole are worth less than $1000, never wear the same outfit twice a week and avoid a regular schedule ("blue suit thursday" will ruin the image you try to maintain). You may think that this is ludicrous but it's not. Unless you own a social network worth billions, looking like a wealthy consultant is the fastest way to become one.
- Get a security clearance. You need to be sponsored for that, the best way is to work for a consulting firm that does business for the military so you can get to the point quickly. Low rates at first but terrific networking value. It takes a while to get a clearance so start early.
- Incorporate a business (it's pretty cheap - depending on the state it can be as low as $50 (Wyoming), even N-Y is like $120) and find a good accountant.
- Start answering RFPs. Since by then you have a clearance, you get automatically short-listed for gigs where a clearance is needed (it takes too long for people without a clearance to get one in the RFP window). Focus on small contracts (below 250k), the big firms apply on those but it's some low-level clerk that does the filing because it's not worth the effort for them, so it's easy to shine if you put some work into it. Once you set foot in an organization and you make the client happy, they will often tweak future RFPs to make sure you're the one winning them.
There's a much simpler way, though: apply for jobs you don't think you'll get, and ask for much more money than you think you're worth. A very large proportion of employers basically decide between their employment candidates by ranking them in order of compensation requests and picking the second from top. Often, if their first choice falls through they'll go up the list rather than down.
In my experience we're talking something like a third of companies - and they're not necessarily WTF places to work, just because they're not good at recruiting IT staff. If you go for three interviews, chances are at least one of the companies is ranking you by what you ask for.
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@blakeyrat said:
@Ronald said:
Dressing poorly is a career killer.
In Phoenix???
I find that hard to believe. I'd believe a stuffy East Coast city, like Baltimore or Boston, but Phoenix? No way. Not buying it.
Here in Seattle people would see through a stuffed shirt in roughly 17 milliseconds. Nobody who knows their shit wears a $1000 suit. Nobody.
Why you talk about Phoenix. The guy left a while ago. Read the threads.
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@El_Heffe said:
@eViLegion said:
Human law is the most tedious, arbitrary nonsense there is.
When I got my law degree I tried representing rocks, but it didn't work out so well. Plants weren't much better.Well, if your degree had included some natural law, you'd know that neither rocks nor plants require representation. The former simply require time to coalesce from star dust, and the later generally need periodic exposure to water and light.
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@Ronald said:
If you want to boost your income, there are four magical steps, each one will be worth it:
Sane suggestions. Only thing to beware of is that it's looking like defence spending in the US will be on a cyclical downturn for the next 5–10 years, so winning those contracts (especially the first ones in a sequence) will be harder than in the past decade. Should still be plenty of opportunities, but expect to have to work for it.- Buy clothes. The rule of thumb is to never wear clothes that as a whole are worth less than $1000, never wear the same outfit twice a week and avoid a regular schedule ("blue suit thursday" will ruin the image you try to maintain). You may think that this is ludicrous but it's not. Unless you own a social network worth billions, looking like a wealthy consultant is the fastest way to become one.
- Get a security clearance. You need to be sponsored for that, the best way is to work for a consulting firm that does business for the military so you can get to the point quickly. Low rates at first but terrific networking value. It takes a while to get a clearance so start early.
- Incorporate a business (it's pretty cheap - depending on the state it can be as low as $50 (Wyoming), even N-Y is like $120) and find a good accountant.
- Start answering RFPs. Since by then you have a clearance, you get automatically short-listed for gigs where a clearance is needed (it takes too long for people without a clearance to get one in the RFP window). Focus on small contracts (below 250k), the big firms apply on those but it's some low-level clerk that does the filing because it's not worth the effort for them, so it's easy to shine if you put some work into it. Once you set foot in an organization and you make the client happy, they will often tweak future RFPs to make sure you're the one winning them.
There are a lot of similarities with research funding, to be honest. Except for the “clearance” part; most research doesn't require that sort of thing. (Also, academics don't really go for the $1000 suit these days, but there's something marvellously confidence-boosting about a really nice set of threads; almost anyone looks good when put in a good suit. It's magic.)
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@dhromed said:
@dkf said:
almost anyone looks good when put in a good suit. It's magic.
What about Stallman?
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@spamcourt said:
@dhromed said:
@dkf said:
almost anyone looks good when put in a good suit. It's magic.
What about Stallman?
There's certainly something magical about that.
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@spamcourt said:
@dhromed said:
@dkf said:
almost anyone looks good when put in a good suit. It's magic.
What about Stallman?
This is hardly a suit. Plus it's always possible to find a picture on Google of someone who looks stupid in a suit, that does not change the fact that they look better than if they were wearing a casual alternative. It's a relative question not absolute.
Which one do you think would be taken more seriously for a corporate gig like a SAP rollout?
The one on the left looks like a shift manager at Kinko's on his day off. The one on the right looks like a successful regional manager at Kinko's.
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@eViLegion said:
The original Birmingham is reasonably shitty as well. Does this sort of similarity hold for most namesake cities?
Oxford is rather nice.... How's the one in Massachusetts?It's a typical rural working-class town. I live about 45 minutes east of it and drive through occasionally, but haven't spent much time there.
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@Ronald said:
Which one do you think would be taken more seriously for a corporate gig like a SAP rollout?
If I were competing for an SAP rollout, I'd be wearing a shirt reading, "I FUCKED YOUR MOM LAST NIGHT" and scented of vomit.
Because I can't think of anything worse than doing a SAP rollout.
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@blakeyrat said:
@Ronald said:
Which one do you think would be taken more seriously for a corporate gig like a SAP rollout?
If I were competing for an SAP rollout, I'd be wearing a shirt reading, "I FUCKED YOUR MOM LAST NIGHT" and scented of vomit.
Because I can't think of anything worse than doing a SAP rollout.
"SAP rollout" is very generic. By order of awfulness:
- SAP BusinessObjects (with Webi)
- SAP Netweaver portal
- SAP Web Dynpro (this one is beyond terrible)*
- SAP ECC (ERP/PLM/etc)
* this is a "web platform" and it works only in IE6 to IE8.
However I can think of the following that are possibly worse than a SAP rollout, and that's just in IT:
- A Peoplesoft rollout
- An IBM Domino rollout
- A Novell Groupwise rollout
- A Cognos TM1 rollout or worse, upgrade
- A Microsoft Dynamics NAV or AX rollout
- Implementing Tivoli Storage Manager
Bottom line, SAP is a piece of shit but it's not alone in its class.
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quality work here, boys. the suit discussion deserves it own thread.
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@_leonardo_ said:
quality work here, boys. the suit discussion deserves it own thread.
I think I will print and frame your comment for future use when I need an inspiring quote.
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@Ronald said:
The one on the left looks like a shift manager at Kinko's on his day off. The one on the right looks like a successful regional manager at Kinko's.
Which just goes to show how wrong peoples perceptions can be... because they're both just a tubby douchebag.
