Idiot comes up with stupid demands for "safe driving" that even @Lorne-Kates says are idiot dumb
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@dkf said in Idiot comes up with stupid demands for "safe driving" that even @Lorne-Kates says are idiot dumb:
@Lorne-Kates said in Idiot comes up with stupid demands for "safe driving" that even @Lorne-Kates says are idiot dumb:
When "it doesn't", do you get a $500 fine, have you insurance premiums increased, and lose your license?
Almost. It blinks at me annoyingly when I drive at 27mph in a 30mph area. The oppression is unbelievable!
So you don't have the same black box that the article talks about. Which would instantly have fined you.
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@groo said in Idiot comes up with stupid demands for "safe driving" that even @Lorne-Kates says are idiot dumb:
dunno what shitty speed cams you have up there, but down here the sensors are actually buried in the road, and the camera is just for taking a photo of your license plate. these sensors work well AFAIK
Most of the speed cameras are radar based.
Sensors in the road? I have my doubts that could even work. How does it even know what car it's measuring?
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@Lorne-Kates The dangerous idiot isn't always going fast. Driving slower than traffic is just as dangerous as driving faster than it. I can't tell you how many times I've come up on someone who's completely oblivious to the world and holding up traffic because they're so focused on their fucking cellular phone.
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@Lorne-Kates said in Idiot comes up with stupid demands for "safe driving" that even @Lorne-Kates says are idiot dumb:
See, this is why you need to relax your immigration / refugee laws. Not only will you have more people willing to do this service, but you can also have one person confess multiple times because all brown people look the same.
If we do this, we'll take all the jobs from our Ukrainian friends!
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@Lorne-Kates said in Idiot comes up with stupid demands for "safe driving" that even @Lorne-Kates says are idiot dumb:
How does it even know what car it's measuring?
For the automated radar version the usual approach is to take two pictures a measured time apart (much easier to control than radar frequency drift) and to compare against some marks painted on the road a set distance apart. It's not very complicated as speed measurement goes, but it works pretty well.
Round here, the threshold is usually set about 10% higher than the speed limit so as to avoid too many cases that are frustratingly expensive in court. Occasionally they'll have a blitz and set the thresholds closer to the limit though, so it isn't wise to go over even knowing about the 10% headroom you have.
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@Lorne-Kates said in Idiot comes up with stupid demands for "safe driving" that even @Lorne-Kates says are idiot dumb:
- It's your car or it isn't. Cut and dry.
Not that cut and dry. It's my car, but maybe someone else is driving it.
You need a clear picture of my face, or your ticket is not valid.How do you identify that woman wearing a burka ?
File under : I need to buy bigger reflective sunglasses.
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@Lorne-Kates said in Idiot comes up with stupid demands for "safe driving" that even @Lorne-Kates says are idiot dumb:
Oh good one. I'm sure insurance companies are just falling over themselves to shell out money for hardware that they have to buy, deploy and maintain-- just so that they can make less profit.
TDEMSYR. They retain customers who are less likely to have an accident. It makes them more competitive for those desirable (because profitable!) customers.
We have State Farm. We've considered signing up. You get an automatic 5% discount, plus possibly more if you actually drive in a way that they interpret as less likely to cost them money.
I imagine that stuff also comes in handy in accident investigations, which could help them in a lawsuit against another driver / insurance company or in raising your rates subsequently.
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@Lorne-Kates said in Idiot comes up with stupid demands for "safe driving" that even @Lorne-Kates says are idiot dumb:
How does it even know what car it's measuring?
I'd guess OCR on the license plate. For the sensors that are a couple of car-lengths apart, just grab the image of the license plate if overspeed is detected. (If there is more than one car within the camera range, the traffic isn't moving fast enough to worry about.) For the ones that are 5 – 10km apart, you'd have to read the plate of every car that passes over each sensor, then match the plates from the two cameras and subtract the timestamps. That seems like it should be pretty reliable (as good as the plate-reading OCR, anyway), but in a much more Big Brother, "We know where everyone goes" sort of way.
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@TimeBandit said in Idiot comes up with stupid demands for "safe driving" that even @Lorne-Kates says are idiot dumb:
Not that cut and dry. It's my car, but maybe someone else is driving it.
That's why some jurisdictions make it the responsibility of the owner to ensure that the car is being driven safely, as that flips the balance of proof once they've proved that it was your car being driven unsafely at all. You can still say that someone else was driving (e.g., by sworn affidavit) but that's an active defence, and it's perjury to mislead with such.
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@Lorne-Kates There are visible marks of something buried in the roads anywhere I see one of those things. Dunno how these things work.
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@Polygeekery said in Idiot comes up with stupid demands for "safe driving" that even @Lorne-Kates says are idiot dumb:
most cars limit their RPM anyway
Huh. TIL.
So how hard would it be to have every single car in the entire world RPM limited to an arbitrary number?
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@lordofduct said in Idiot comes up with stupid demands for "safe driving" that even @Lorne-Kates says are idiot dumb:
They're 10 dollar an hour kids fresh on the job site and just thrown the keys.
What backwards-ass country do you live in where paramedics are minimum wage workers?!?
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@Polygeekery said in Idiot comes up with stupid demands for "safe driving" that even @Lorne-Kates says are idiot dumb:
1:30AM
@Polygeekery said in Idiot comes up with stupid demands for "safe driving" that even @Lorne-Kates says are idiot dumb:
judgment call
@Polygeekery said in Idiot comes up with stupid demands for "safe driving" that even @Lorne-Kates says are idiot dumb:
4-ways
@Polygeekery said in Idiot comes up with stupid demands for "safe driving" that even @Lorne-Kates says are idiot dumb:
slowed down for red lights
@Polygeekery said in Idiot comes up with stupid demands for "safe driving" that even @Lorne-Kates says are idiot dumb:
deemed it clear and safe
You do see some mitigating factors here that made you situation different from 99.9% of the other drivers who would be speeding to a hospital, yes?
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@anotherusername said in Idiot comes up with stupid demands for "safe driving" that even @Lorne-Kates says are idiot dumb:
Driving slower than traffic is just as dangerous as driving faster than it.
Cite.
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@TimeBandit said in Idiot comes up with stupid demands for "safe driving" that even @Lorne-Kates says are idiot dumb:
Not that cut and dry. It's my car, but maybe someone else is driving it.
TIL TimeBandit replies before reading the thread.
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@TimeBandit no, they just make it a nonmoving violation. Like if "somebody" parked it in a tow-away zone. It's your vehicle, you pay the fine.
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@dkf said in Idiot comes up with stupid demands for "safe driving" that even @Lorne-Kates says are idiot dumb:
The easiest source are the posted speed limits. Just have computer vision systems in cars to detect what the current limit is.
That's great, until they take down the sign for construction (a friend got out of a ticket this way once), or fail to put it back up after construction is complete (I got out of a speeding ticket that way once), or the sign gets obstructed by foliage, etc., etc.
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@Gąska said in Idiot comes up with stupid demands for "safe driving" that even @Lorne-Kates says are idiot dumb:
confession market
So how does this work--people who don't have licenses are doing this? If not, don't they worry about their own license being suspended, or their insurance going up to having 100 license points, or something? Or is that just not a concern.
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@JBert said in Idiot comes up with stupid demands for "safe driving" that even @Lorne-Kates says are idiot dumb:
Really? "Fuck the greater good, it's not generating any money"?
Was I not clear? People stopped running lights at those intersections. No point in having a red-light camera at an intersection where nobody's running the light.
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@Lorne-Kates said in Idiot comes up with stupid demands for "safe driving" that even @Lorne-Kates says are idiot dumb:
@anotherusername said in Idiot comes up with stupid demands for "safe driving" that even @Lorne-Kates says are idiot dumb:
Driving slower than traffic is just as dangerous as driving faster than it.
Cite.
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@Lorne-Kates said in Idiot comes up with stupid demands for "safe driving" that even @Lorne-Kates says are idiot dumb:
Huh. TIL.
So how hard would it be to have every single car in the entire world RPM limited to an arbitrary number?It takes very little effort to reflash an engine management system. I have not been around when it was done since the late 90's, but then it only took a few minutes and you could raise (or lower) the rev limiter.
But, you can also bet your ass that it would be very little time before there were widespread measures to circumvent it. At least by enthusiasts and anyone annoyed enough to pay ~$150 to some guy on craigslist.
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@Lorne-Kates said in Idiot comes up with stupid demands for "safe driving" that even @Lorne-Kates says are idiot dumb:
You do see some mitigating factors here that made you situation different from 99.9% of the other drivers who would be speeding to a hospital, yes?
That I am not a fucking idiot?
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@anotherusername said in Idiot comes up with stupid demands for "safe driving" that even @Lorne-Kates says are idiot dumb:
@Lorne-Kates said in Idiot comes up with stupid demands for "safe driving" that even @Lorne-Kates says are idiot dumb:
@anotherusername said in Idiot comes up with stupid demands for "safe driving" that even @Lorne-Kates says are idiot dumb:
Driving slower than traffic is just as dangerous as driving faster than it.
Cite.
First two hits: Daily Mail and Reddit.
I doubt your sources.
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@Lorne-Kates my sources? Google tried to personalize them for you...
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@groo said in Idiot comes up with stupid demands for "safe driving" that even @Lorne-Kates says are idiot dumb:
dunno what shitty speed cams you have up there, but down here the sensors are actually buried in the road
How well does that work if someone passes you?
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@Polygeekery Or you could move to Germany
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@Lorne-Kates said in Idiot comes up with stupid demands for "safe driving" that even @Lorne-Kates says are idiot dumb:
A car going slow because of adverse road conditions
What about some jerk doing 30 in a 45 for no reason? Also including the Mainiac variant, the guy who speeds up to the limit as soon as you try to pass.
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@FrostCat said in Idiot comes up with stupid demands for "safe driving" that even @Lorne-Kates says are idiot dumb:
What about some jerk doing 30 in a 45 for no reason? Also including the Mainiac variant, the guy who speeds up to the limit as soon as you try to pass.
It's almost as if there's also laws about driving too slow...
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@Lorne-Kates said in Idiot comes up with stupid demands for "safe driving" that even @Lorne-Kates says are idiot dumb:
@FrostCat said in Idiot comes up with stupid demands for "safe driving" that even @Lorne-Kates says are idiot dumb:
What about some jerk doing 30 in a 45 for no reason? Also including the Mainiac variant, the guy who speeds up to the limit as soon as you try to pass.
It's almost as if there's also laws about driving too slow...
At least in America, the only posted speed minimums are on highways (which is usually 45-50 MPH on 75-75+ MPH highways). Even though traffic obstruction is illegal on the streets, the chances of being caught for it are generally very low.
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@Sumireko said in Idiot comes up with stupid demands for "safe driving" that even @Lorne-Kates says are idiot dumb:
At least in America, the only posted speed minimums are on highways (which is usually 45-50 MPH on 75-75+ MPH highways). Even though traffic obstruction is illegal on the streets, the chances of being caught for it are generally very low.
In Ontario it's a "common sense" law:
Unnecessary slow driving prohibited
- (1) No motor vehicle shall be driven on a highway at such a slow rate of speed as to impede or block the normal and reasonable movement of traffic thereon except when the slow rate of speed is necessary for safe operation having regard to all the circumstances. R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8, s. 132 (1).
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@Lorne-Kates said in Idiot comes up with stupid demands for "safe driving" that even @Lorne-Kates says are idiot dumb:
DON'T EMPOWER PRIVATE ENTITIES BY LETTING THEM PROFIT FROM HARMING OTHERS!
Don't empower the state by letting them profit from harming others.
You know, like, the same police authority gets the money from the speeding tickets they issue.
No way they'd rig their devices, or speed up a yellow light.
@Fox said in Idiot comes up with stupid demands for "safe driving" that even @Lorne-Kates says are idiot dumb:
How did that work with the cameras catching people blowing red lights?
Yellow light.... shortened... immediately after camera was installed.
@Lorne-Kates said in Idiot comes up with stupid demands for "safe driving" that even @Lorne-Kates says are idiot dumb:
It's an unambiguous offense.
Bullshit.
It's trivial to spoof the light color.
@Lorne-Kates said in Idiot comes up with stupid demands for "safe driving" that even @Lorne-Kates says are idiot dumb:
That alone prevents the majority of the red-light runners.
It also creates more people that cut you off and slam on their brakes, which the camera doesn't give a fuck about.
@Lorne-Kates said in Idiot comes up with stupid demands for "safe driving" that even @Lorne-Kates says are idiot dumb:
You lose your cameras and whoever fucked around with public safety for profit gets to go to jail.
The first part is easy to vote for.
The second one.... yeah....I and many others timed the yellow lights to be shorter with the cameras installed.
@Lorne-Kates said in Idiot comes up with stupid demands for "safe driving" that even @Lorne-Kates says are idiot dumb:
f you're driving so fast you have to slam on brakes at yellow, you're a fucking moron.
You mean if someone pulls out of a lot, cuts you off by changing lanes, etc, and slams on their brakes?
@Lorne-Kates said in Idiot comes up with stupid demands for "safe driving" that even @Lorne-Kates says are idiot dumb:
If you're letting someone tailgate you that close, and are still going full speed, you're an idiot.
How the hell am I supposed to prevent that? I'm not responsible for someone slamming into me at a red light because they're used to people running the lights.
@Lorne-Kates said in Idiot comes up with stupid demands for "safe driving" that even @Lorne-Kates says are idiot dumb:
The owner is responsible for who uses their car. If your friend ran the red, fuck them, give you money.
Someone stole my wife's car from the park and ride.
Fuck you.
@Rhywden said in Idiot comes up with stupid demands for "safe driving" that even @Lorne-Kates says are idiot dumb:
driver's logbook in the car
How is that evidence.
"Your logbook has fresh ink... "
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@Sumireko Really just used to give cops the authority to pull them off the highway.
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@xaade said in Idiot comes up with stupid demands for "safe driving" that even @Lorne-Kates says are idiot dumb:
How the hell am I supposed to prevent that? I'm not responsible for someone slamming into me at a red light because they're used to people running the lights.
Adjust your rate of speed until they're no longer a danger being behind you. It's called "controlling the traffic"
@xaade said in Idiot comes up with stupid demands for "safe driving" that even @Lorne-Kates says are idiot dumb:
Someone stole my wife's car from the park and ride.
Fuck you.Why? I didn't steal it.
If you can't figure out a way to prove your stolen car wasn't being driven by you...
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@Lorne-Kates said in Idiot comes up with stupid demands for "safe driving" that even @Lorne-Kates says are idiot dumb:
Adjust your rate of speed until they're no longer a danger being behind you. It's called "controlling the traffic"
You don't always have the capability to do this.
I've almost hit a guy because he managed to leave the road a block down from me and cut left right in front of me.
I've also had a guy leave behind me and tailgate me at the last 200 ft from a red light.
You can't control those situations.
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@Lorne-Kates said in Idiot comes up with stupid demands for "safe driving" that even @Lorne-Kates says are idiot dumb:
If you can't figure out a way to prove your stolen car wasn't being driven by you...
No no no no no....
That's not how enforcement of the law works. They have to prove I'm guilty. If they cannot, they cannot penalize me.
This mentality is turning everyone into the criminal BUT THE CRIMINAL.
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@xaade said in Idiot comes up with stupid demands for "safe driving" that even @Lorne-Kates says are idiot dumb:
You don't always have the capability to do this.
You almost always do.
@xaade said in Idiot comes up with stupid demands for "safe driving" that even @Lorne-Kates says are idiot dumb:
I've almost hit a guy because he managed to leave the road a block down from me and cut left right in front of me.
Did you not see him driving erratically in your rear view mirror? Did you not see him enter your blind spot? Did you not assume that, given that behavior, he may cut in front of you, and have been prepared?
@xaade said in Idiot comes up with stupid demands for "safe driving" that even @Lorne-Kates says are idiot dumb:
I've also had a guy leave behind me and tailgate me at the last 200 ft from a red light.
Not sure what "leave behind me" means, but if he's tailgating you, continue to slow down. Especially approaching a red light. Ease into it, very very slowly, to avoid slamming on the brakes. 200ft is a long, long way to decelerate towards a red light.
@xaade said in Idiot comes up with stupid demands for "safe driving" that even @Lorne-Kates says are idiot dumb:
You can't control those situations.
Yes, you can, and should. Traffic control and defensive driving.
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@Lorne-Kates said in Idiot comes up with stupid demands for "safe driving" that even @Lorne-Kates says are idiot dumb:
@Gurth said in Idiot comes up with stupid demands for "safe driving" that even @Lorne-Kates says are idiot dumb:
@Lorne-Kates said in Idiot comes up with stupid demands for "safe driving" that even @Lorne-Kates says are idiot dumb:
Hell, they're almost as effective as just putting up an empty box that says "red light camera".
Around where I live, maybe 15 years ago they installed speed camera boxes at various points along a main road, but with only a few cameras that were installed in different boxes every couple of days. Not sure how effective this scheme was, since the boxes were removed again some years later.
Speed cameras are shit and any politician who votes them in should be driven out on a railway spike.
They're buggy, inefficient, and inaccurate for all the reasons discussed above. They can't tell the difference between two cars close together. They require extreme calibration and maintenance or they give false positives. They don't account for the inaccurate speed measurement devices that drivers have available to them. They have to "human error" forgiveness factor for if someone sneezes, hits the gas and goes 5kmph over the limit for 3 seconds. They're put in predatory locations to prey on changing speed limits.
They're the exact opposite of red light cameras in every way.
Again, that depends on the jurisdiction
Where I live, the speed cameras are placed in areas where speeding is very dangerous. They also only get triggered when a vehicle is going something like 25 over, which is just ridiculous.
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@Lorne-Kates said in Idiot comes up with stupid demands for "safe driving" that even @Lorne-Kates says are idiot dumb:
@lordofduct said in Idiot comes up with stupid demands for "safe driving" that even @Lorne-Kates says are idiot dumb:
They're 10 dollar an hour kids fresh on the job site and just thrown the keys.
What backwards-ass country do you live in where paramedics are minimum wage workers?!?
The good ol' US of A.
And 10 dollars isn't minimum wage, it's 7.25 or some shit.
And I'm not talking about paramedics. I'm talking about EMTs, since most of the drivers of ambulances here aren't paramedics, they're EMTs.
The paramedic stays in the back with the dying person so they don't die. Why the fuck would you put the well trained medical person in the damn driver seat!? No, you put the young up and coming EMT who is studying to be a paramedic (or doctor, nurse prac, or whatever they're going to school for) in the driver seat.
And yep, EMTs do make around $10 an hour, depending the state that is. Anywhere's from 10 to 15 dollars an hour.
And the pay doesn't particularly matter... even if it's at the 15 rate, they're still not trained drivers, they're training for medicine!
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@xaade said in Idiot comes up with stupid demands for "safe driving" that even @Lorne-Kates says are idiot dumb:
That's not how enforcement of the law works. They have to prove I'm guilty. If they cannot, they cannot penalize me.
No, that's not how law enforcement works. Law enforcement's job is to enforce the law by acting on reasonable beliefs. It's the court's job to prove guilt.
A cop sees your car blast through a red light. They can't catch the car. They will show up at your house to give you a ticket/arrest you.
At that point you can reasonable say "Look, my car was stolen, here's the police report".
It's up to the cops to then decide if they reasonable believe you ran the red. They will keep in mind that it'll have to be proven in court. But it's their judgement. They don't have to prove shit.
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@sloosecannon said in Idiot comes up with stupid demands for "safe driving" that even @Lorne-Kates says are idiot dumb:
Where I live, the speed cameras are placed in areas where speeding is very dangerous. They also only get triggered when a vehicle is going something like 25 over, which is just ridiculous.
I can see a camera working there-- long straight road with no speed changes, and catching the most egregious of offenders.
Though parking a cop car there would also work. Arrest the dumbfucks right away and impound their cars.
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@lordofduct said in Idiot comes up with stupid demands for "safe driving" that even @Lorne-Kates says are idiot dumb:
They're 10 dollar an hour kids fresh on the job site and just thrown the keys.
Lol maybe where you live they are.....
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@lordofduct said in Idiot comes up with stupid demands for "safe driving" that even @Lorne-Kates says are idiot dumb:
The good ol' US of A.
...that is the most horrific thing I've every read. Your country is fucked.
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@Lorne-Kates said in Idiot comes up with stupid demands for "safe driving" that even @Lorne-Kates says are idiot dumb:
Did you not see him driving erratically in your rear view mirror? Did you not see him enter your blind spot? Did you not assume that, given that behavior, he may cut in front of you, and have been prepared?
It is like you think every road that people drive on is only 1-2 lanes and doesn't have thousands of other cars on it.
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@Lorne-Kates said in Idiot comes up with stupid demands for "safe driving" that even @Lorne-Kates says are idiot dumb:
In some places, schoolbus drivers are authorized to record people running past buses with their signals on
According to signs on the busses here in Dallas, the busses are already equipped with cameras for this.
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@Lorne-Kates said in Idiot comes up with stupid demands for "safe driving" that even @Lorne-Kates says are idiot dumb:
Did you not see him driving erratically in your rear view mirror? Did you not see him enter your blind spot? Did you not assume that, given that behavior, he may cut in front of you, and have been prepared?
While it's a good idea to drive defensively, it's dystopian to create laws that require it, because it produces too many false positives.
@Lorne-Kates said in Idiot comes up with stupid demands for "safe driving" that even @Lorne-Kates says are idiot dumb:
Yes, you can, and should. Traffic control and defensive driving.
Apparently, you've never been rear ended from someone leaving a parking lot entering your lane at 60 mph while you're decelerating for a stop. There's nothing you can do in that situation. And it would be unjust to blame the person properly operating their vehicle for the wreck.
@Lorne-Kates said in Idiot comes up with stupid demands for "safe driving" that even @Lorne-Kates says are idiot dumb:
At that point you can reasonable say "Look, my car was stolen, here's the police report".
You can't always know that your car was stolen immediately when it was stolen.
@Lorne-Kates said in Idiot comes up with stupid demands for "safe driving" that even @Lorne-Kates says are idiot dumb:
They will keep in mind that it'll have to be proven in court.
I think we're talking about different stages in traffic law enforcement.
@Dragoon said in Idiot comes up with stupid demands for "safe driving" that even @Lorne-Kates says are idiot dumb:
It is like you think every road that people drive on is only 1-2 lanes and doesn't have thousands of other cars on it.
He lives in a world where the vast majority of drivers are pristine.... I can only guess.
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@TimeBandit said in Idiot comes up with stupid demands for "safe driving" that even @Lorne-Kates says are idiot dumb:
@Lorne-Kates said in Idiot comes up with stupid demands for "safe driving" that even @Lorne-Kates says are idiot dumb:
- It's your car or it isn't. Cut and dry.
Not that cut and dry. It's my car, but maybe someone else is driving it.
You need a clear picture of my face, or your ticket is not valid.How do you identify that woman wearing a burka ?
File under : I need to buy bigger reflective sunglasses.
Correct. In fact, there are 3 possible options.
- It's your car, and you're driving it.
- It's your car, and someone you've authorized is driving it. You're still responsible for their use of the vehicle.
- It's your car, but someone you don't know is driving it. Also known as theft.
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@Lorne-Kates said in Idiot comes up with stupid demands for "safe driving" that even @Lorne-Kates says are idiot dumb:
@lordofduct said in Idiot comes up with stupid demands for "safe driving" that even @Lorne-Kates says are idiot dumb:
The good ol' US of A.
...that is the most horrific thing I've every read. Your country is fucked.
What, that they have the lower trained people drive, while the better trained people save lives?
I think I'd rather the higher paid skilled medical personal do the job of SAVING LIVES.
Or is it that the EMT gets 10 dollars an hour? It's above minimum wage. And depending the job it can go upwards to 15 dollars an hour. Both of which are above UK min wage as well. EMT's aren't people with medical degrees, they're OFTEN people going to school for medical degrees, but don't yet have them (some just do it as a job, but that's actually rare). How much should we be paying untrained green thumbs?
And in the end, neither paramedics nor EMTs are trained drivers. They're medical personal, they drive out of circumstance.
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@sloosecannon said in Idiot comes up with stupid demands for "safe driving" that even @Lorne-Kates says are idiot dumb:
It's your car, and someone you've authorized is driving it. You're still responsible for their use of the vehicle.
It's your car, but someone you don't know is driving it. Also known as theft.Have fun when those two become ambiguous.
"He said I could drive his car."
"Yeah, but that was 2 months ago, when you were still dating."Giving the ticket to the actual person who violated the law is much less problematic.
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@Lorne-Kates there aren't minimum speed limits posted on most streets, and the "obstructing traffic" laws are generally not enforced unless a cop actually sees it happen. They can't just sit behind a bush and clock you going 15 under and give you a ticket like they can for 15 over.
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@Lorne-Kates said in Idiot comes up with stupid demands for "safe driving" that even @Lorne-Kates says are idiot dumb:
So how hard would it be to have every single car in the entire world RPM limited to an arbitrary number?
Obviously you'd have to retrofit them. Good luck getting ones out in the outback of wherever.
Cars old enough not to be computer-driven, you'd probably have to have some mechanical thing. It might have to be different for each model of car?