The Windows 10 Random Error Generator
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The other day, as I was yelling at some kids to get off my lawn, I was thinking "I've been ignoring Windows 10 for a long time, maybe I haven't been fair. Maybe it's time to take another look".
It started with the crazy idea of installing Windows 10 on an external drive, maybe even a thumbdrive, which, it turns out, is actually possible and relatively simple, once you know the proper incantations. In the process I discovered The Windows 10 Random Error Generator.
Although installation went smoothly, once I was up and running I would always encounter some serious problem that neither I nor Google could figure out how to fix. Wipe the drive, start over, and the thing I encountered in the previous installation worked fine but now something different was broken.
A blank white screen flashing on and off. Trying to install programs and getting an error message about some DLL buried deep in the WinSXS directory. Windows Explorer is broken. Lather, rinse, repeat. It's almost like the installer has a random number generator which gives you a new problem each time you try to install.
So I gave up on the thumbdrive (which I always suspected would turn out to be a bad idea) and tried an external SSD. Other than being faster, things didn't work any better. A few attempts later, Fuck You Windows 10, Now it's personal. So I pull out my boot drive (don't want any Windows 10 cooties getting on it), replace it with a new SSD, and off I go.
Several attempts later, I've actually got a fully functional Windows 10 up and running, with all my most used programs installed. I guess I finally hit the right number in the Windows 10 Lottery.
Along the way, I discovered some fascinating things.
Windows 10 really ratcheted up the file permissions which, in addition to being really annoying, has exposed problems with some program's installers. Generally, the last thing an installer does is create shortcuts in the Start Menu. But, if the installer can't create those shortcuts (which also seems to occur randomly), some installers completely abort the installation!! What the fucking fuck? You installed the program just fine but aborted the installation and deleted everything because you couldn't create the Start Menu shortcuts?? And how in the fuck do you have permission to write to C:\Program Files, but not the Start Menu??
And then there's my current favorite. Windows update was throwing an error on some updates, so this morning I looked up the error number. Windows Update won't install some updates if Windows Firewall is turned off. This includes a couple of updates for Office 2003 which I still use at home, because, fuck you, that's why.
I haven't run Windows Firewall since, well since never, because there are better third party alternatives that give me much better control of what comes and goes. So I actually have to turn on Windows Firewall, run Windows Update, then turn it off again. What the fuck are these people thinking?
And I seem to have somehow accidentally killed Edge (the new IE replacement). But I didn't really like it much anyway.
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@El_Heffe said in The Windows 10 Random Error Generator:
And I seem to have somehow accidentally killed Edge (the new IE replacement).
That's no great loss. Edge isn't really ready for mass consumption yet anyway; it's missing a lot of features IE11 has.
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@El_Heffe said in The Windows 10 Random Error Generator:
Windows Update won't install some updates if Windows Firewall is turned off.
Fonts, too. We talked about this somewhere around here:
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@RaceProUK said in The Windows 10 Random Error Generator:
@El_Heffe said in The Windows 10 Random Error Generator:
And I seem to have somehow accidentally killed Edge (the new IE replacement).
That's no great loss. Edge isn't really ready for mass consumption yet anyway; it's missing a lot of features IE11 has.
That was what I thought, during the short time I used it. I'm a little surprised that they have hidden IE and made Edge the default browser when it's clearly not ready yet.
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@El_Heffe said in The Windows 10 Random Error Generator:
And I seem to have somehow accidentally killed Edge
Edge has got a ways to go but it's been getting significantly better as time goes on.
Now by that, I mean that it's been quite good at rendering pages and stuff, being pretty standards-compliant these days, but it has this nasty tendency to freeze up for a few seconds a lot. Those seem to be gradually reducing in frequency, though.
The other big problem in my view is the JS engine is still slow, although that's hardly a new problem.
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@RaceProUK said in The Windows 10 Random Error Generator:
; it's missing a lot of features IE11 has.
Not on the Insider Fast Track, are you? Lately with almost every build it seems like a few new features return.
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@El_Heffe said in The Windows 10 Random Error Generator:
Windows Update won't install some updates if Windows Firewall is turned off.
....... WTF?!
that's.... that's..... NO! BAD! NAUGHTY MICROSOFT!
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@FrostCat said in The Windows 10 Random Error Generator:
The other big problem in my view is the JS engine is still slow, although that's hardly a new problem.
Is that still due to a lack of a 64-bit JIT compiler? Didn't 32-bit IE get a lot faster when it got one of those a few years ago?
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@FrostCat said in The Windows 10 Random Error Generator:
it has this nasty tendency to freeze up for a few seconds a lot
I haven't noticed that. What I've seen is a few cases of sites not rendering properly (IDeOne failed to show the second part of the captcha when signing up and just returned me to the home page), and the home page regularly decides it needs to re render everything about once a second. Makes it very distracting, and pretty much impossible to click any of the news items or commonly used pages
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@FrostCat said in The Windows 10 Random Error Generator:
Lately with almost every build it seems like a few
newold features return.FTFY
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@accalia IIRC that's actually a bug, not intentional...
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@El_Heffe said in The Windows 10 Random Error Generator:
Windows 10 really ratcheted up the file permissions which, in addition to being really annoying, has exposed problems with some program's installers. Generally, the last thing an installer does is create shortcuts in the Start Menu. But, if the installer can't create those shortcuts (which also seems to occur randomly), some installers completely abort the installation!! What the fucking fuck? You installed the program just fine but aborted the installation and deleted everything because you couldn't create the Start Menu shortcuts?? And how in the fuck do you have permission to write to C:\Program Files, but not the Start Menu??
I have literally never seen that happen.... what's the program? Perhaps it's trying to access a directory that doesn't exist any more?
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@El_Heffe said in The Windows 10 Random Error Generator:
I'm a little surprised that they have hidden IE and made Edge the default browser when it's clearly not ready yet.
Your experience show that Win10 is clearly not ready yet, still they try to push it down our throat. And you are surprised that they made Edge the default browser ?
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@boomzilla Dunno. Finding out why seems like work.
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@TimeBandit indeed
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@El_Heffe said in The Windows 10 Random Error Generator:
And how in the fuck do you have permission to write to C:\Program Files, but not the Start Menu??
Because, IIRC, if Windows detects that an installation is running in a non-privileged scope, Windows cleverly redirects or aliases C:\Program Files to a folder in the user's profile somehow, so the installer doesn't fail hard and continues without a hitch.
And, IIRC, the Start Menu doesn't get the same sort of kinda-fixing... it has always had separate locations for the user's start menu and the "All Users" start menu, so if the installer explicitly wants to put its shortcuts in the "All Users" start menu and can't, Windows doesn't try to help it do the right thing.
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@anotherusername said in The Windows 10 Random Error Generator:
Because, IIRC, if Windows detects that an installation is running in a non-privileged scope, Windows cleverly redirects or aliases C:\Program Files to a folder in the user's profile somehow, so the installer doesn't fail hard and continues without a hitch.
Not my experience. The installer fails due to permissions when trying to write. You're probably thinking about runtime things like writing to an ini file. Or the internal MSI structure - it looks like PFs, but the install redirects. But if you go into the advanced setup and change the install directory at runtime (on a per-user, non-priv user), you'll see it pointing into the profile. Attempting to change that to PF will fail.
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@anotherusername said in The Windows 10 Random Error Generator:
IIRC, the Start Menu doesn't get the same sort of kinda-fixing...
I believe it's supposed to; the folders that usually get virtualized are
C:\Program Files
,C:\Windows
andC:\ProgramData
, and the Start Menu stuff lives inside the latter.Not sure if the virtualization stuff still works if the installer attempts to write into
C:\ProgramData\Microsoft\Windows\Start Menu
via the compatibility junction atC:\Documents and Settings\All Users\Start Menu
(which, if it's using the proper API to figure out where the Start Menu folder is, it won't be; but as @blakeyrat never tires of pointing out, lots of things get that badly wrong).
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@dcon said in The Windows 10 Random Error Generator:
You're probably thinking about runtime things
If the software is as bad as he makes it seem, though, it may well not behave like an installer....... (IOW hand-written installer prints the binary files out via a file handle...)
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@TimeBandit said in The Windows 10 Random Error Generator:
And you are surprised that they made Edge the default browser ?
No, but I still can't understand why in hell would they make Edge the default PDF reader.
TWICE!
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@sloosecannon said in The Windows 10 Random Error Generator:
Perhaps it's trying to access a directory that doesn't exist any more?
Something like "I'm assuming the All Users Profile is actually still in C:\Users and not in C:\ProgramData" or some BS.
Pre-edit:
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@El_Heffe How do you people manage to have the Windows 10 install not work? I am being exposed to this whole alternative universe here where up is down and black is white and Windows Update will maliciously reboot your computer to spite you.
@El_Heffe said in The Windows 10 Random Error Generator:
I haven't run Windows Firewall since, well since never, because there are better third party alternatives that give me much better control of what comes and goes.
I'd be very surprised if that were true.
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@blakeyrat said in The Windows 10 Random Error Generator:
@El_Heffe How do you people manage to have the Windows 10 install not work? I am being exposed to this whole alternative universe here where up is down and black is white and Windows Update will maliciously reboot your computer to spite you.
Having updated 20 machines at work and one at home with no trouble, I too find myself in a befuddlement.
It is somewhat lessened by the fact that I've not managed to update my laptop yet, but given the poor state of my current Win7 installation, I am not terribly surprised. I really have to clean this shit up.
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I always imagine they're like this guy:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3MoWgeQRXHo
"I don't know what this is, but I'll dick around with it anyway, then three seconds bitch that everything's broken."
The Windows firewall is fine. If you're dicking around with it and uninstalling it, just don't do that. It's fine. It works fine. Stop dicking around with shit and get to work.
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@blakeyrat said in The Windows 10 Random Error Generator:
How do you people manage to have the Windows 10 install not work?
Unboxed a new Acer laptop yesterday. Plugged in the charger as instructed, turned it on and OOBE wanted a connection to my wifi. Gave it that. It told me it was installing vital updates for a while, then it asked me whether I wanted to let Windows do a whole bunch of useless shit all of which I turned off, then it got to "taking care of a few things", then it told me that DefaultUser00 was not allowed to log on and that I should contact my administrator.
Second time around (after doing a Reset This PC) I didn't let OOBE connect to my wifi. Then it worked.
Fucking nondeterministic closed-source proprietary crap.
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@blakeyrat said in The Windows 10 Random Error Generator:
I'd be very surprised if that were true.
For two reasons - first because it's hard to get better than Windows Firewall (I mean, it's got one job, and it does it very well...), and two - because like 90% of the third-party programs are wrappers over Windows Firewall anyways.
Which, incidentally, means that Windows Update works fine with third-party firewalls enabled.
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@flabdablet said in The Windows 10 Random Error Generator:
@blakeyrat said in The Windows 10 Random Error Generator:
How do you people manage to have the Windows 10 install not work?
Unboxed a new Acer laptop yesterday. Plugged in the charger as instructed, turned it on and OOBE wanted a connection to my wifi. Gave it that. It told me it was installing vital updates for a while, then it asked me whether I wanted to let Windows do a whole bunch of useless shit all of which I turned off, then it got to "taking care of a few things", then it told me that DefaultUser00 was not allowed to log on and that I should contact my administrator.
Second time around (after doing a Reset This PC) I didn't let OOBE connect to my wifi. Then it worked.
Fucking nondeterministic closed-source proprietary crap.
Sounds like Acer screwed up your OOBE.
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@sloosecannon said in The Windows 10 Random Error Generator:
Sounds like Acer screwed up your OOBE
Just because it might not have been Microsoft's closed source proprietary crap doesn't make it any less closed source, any less proprietary, or any less crap.
Anyway I'm tipping it was MSFT's fault just because disabling the updates step fixed it, and I know for a fact that Windows Update has always been a steaming pile of fail.
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@flabdablet said in The Windows 10 Random Error Generator:
updates step
Well it may have been the Windows/Live account integration part that fell over. And that's related to user profile stuff, and since it sounds like the user profile stuff is what failed, I'd bet that's more of the cause.
But whatever. Yeah, I have no love for the shitty bloatware images OEMs shove onto your PC. There's a reason every PC I get gets a clean Windows install from my WDS...
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@sloosecannon said in The Windows 10 Random Error Generator:
There's a reason every PC I get gets a clean Windows install from my WDS...
I've done this in the past but on my current Lenovo I just uninstalled it which has worked almost just as well.
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@loopback0 said in The Windows 10 Random Error Generator:
it
Uninstalled what exactly?
I'm a little tinfoil - especially regarding Lenovo, because China... but their hardware is quite solid
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@blakeyrat said in The Windows 10 Random Error Generator:
@El_Heffe How do you people manage to have the Windows 10 install not work? I am being exposed to this whole alternative universe here where up is down and black is white and Windows Update will maliciously reboot your computer to spite you.
Welcome to the real universe. What you are calling the alternate universe is, in fact, the reality. We noticed that you lived in your parallel universe for a while, so be warned you may be shocked by the real truth.
Some fun fact to get you started :
- Git is the most used version control system.
- Linux is the most used server in the world.
- Linux is powering more than 80% of the smartphones.
- You are most probably using Linux in your wireless router, TV, e-book.
- Nobody is buying WinPhone, not even Microsoft employees. [1]
- Windows10, despite being given away for free for 9 months, still barely pass WinXP in market share.
- In the Top 500 fastest supercomputers of the world, Windows is completely absent.
Hope you have a nice ride.
[1] The only exception is BlackBerry employees, since they like to get a good laugh at the underdog.
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@TimeBandit said in The Windows 10 Random Error Generator:
Windows10, despite being given away for free for 9 months, still barely pass WinXP in market share.
That's kinda sad actually.......
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@TimeBandit said in The Windows 10 Random Error Generator:
In the Top 500 fastest supercomputers of the world, Windows is completely absent.
Don't supercomputers normally have purpose-built OSes that can take advantage of the sheer amount of power?
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@TimeBandit FWIW, I've found that 90% of the time Windows 10 works perfectly fine, so I'm kinda with Blakey on this one. On the other hand, I have a friend who's had like 5 failed Windows 10 installations in a row. So... IDK.
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@RaceProUK said in The Windows 10 Random Error Generator:
Don't supercomputers normally have purpose-built OSes that can take advantage of the sheer amount of power?
98.8% of them run Linux, as of November 2015
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@sloosecannon said in The Windows 10 Random Error Generator:
For two reasons - first because it's hard to get better than Windows Firewall (I mean, it's got one job, and it does it very well...)
Right. I mean the firewall that shipped with XP SP2 was pretty bare-bones, I get that, but the one in Windows 7+ is frankly excellent.
I wager if you think a third-party product can do it better, it's more likely to be because you know how to use its UI better. Which is kind of a valid point; Windows Firewall's UI isn't exactly great.
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@blakeyrat said in The Windows 10 Random Error Generator:
Windows Firewall's UI isn't exactly great.
Yeah.
My personal favorite third-party one is http://www.binisoft.org/wfc.php - it's pretty well made and makes those kinds of tasks simpler. But yeah, honestly, I don't really care at all. Just turn Windows Firewall on and be done with it.
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@TimeBandit said in The Windows 10 Random Error Generator:
Windows10, despite being given away for free for 9 months, still barely pass WinXP in market share.
Wow that's a shocking factoid that just happens to be completely false.
@TimeBandit said in The Windows 10 Random Error Generator:
In the Top 500 fastest supercomputers of the world, Windows is completely absent.
Right; and in the top 500 fastest cars, the Toyota Echo is completely absent. Gee, wonder why?
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@blakeyrat said in The Windows 10 Random Error Generator:
@TimeBandit said in The Windows 10 Random Error Generator:
Windows10, despite being given away for free for 9 months, still barely pass WinXP in market share.
Wow that's a shocking factoid that just happens to be completely false.
Liar.
WinXP : 10.9%
Win10 : 14.15%
Win7 : 51.89%Source : https://www.netmarketshare.com/operating-system-market-share.aspx?qprid=10&qpcustomd=0
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@TimeBandit 30% larger is "barely"?
What isn't "barely"?
Wikipedia, citing StatCounter, puts Windows XP at 7.4% and Windows 10 at 17.87%. Is 240% larger "barely"?
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Using percent to compare a small number to another small number is dishonest.
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@El_Heffe said in The Windows 10 Random Error Generator:
drive
It sounds to me like your thumb drive may have just simple had some bad sectors.
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@anotherusername said in The Windows 10 Random Error Generator:
Using percent to compare a small number to another small number is dishonest.
Ok. I'll even use your janky numbers.
There are 1.25 BILLION Windows PCs worldwide.
Windows XP is 10.9% of those, which is about 136,250,000 users.
Windows 10 is 14.15% of those, which is about 176,875,000 users.
So when you use the word "barely", you're referring to 40,625,000 users. Slightly more than the population of Algeria.
EDIT: I just noticed that article is from 2011. Well whatever, I'm not doing the math again.
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@sloosecannon said in The Windows 10 Random Error Generator:
Uninstalled what exactly?
Anything I either didn't need, or didn't know what it did.
It worked pretty well as I'd uninstalled Superfish before that whole saga was announced.A full reformat may well have been better, but removing the shit was faster and easier.
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@blakeyrat it's only 3.25% of the users, though. You just make it sound like a really big difference by using percents like you did, because you're comparing two relatively small fractions of the whole market.
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Cool, so now it's just turned into another Windows vs *nix pissing contest.
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@anotherusername That market is a fraction of the size of the "people who want to punch anotherusername in the face" market, which BTW is poorly-served and would be a good target for venture funding.
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@flabdablet said in The Windows 10 Random Error Generator:
Fucking nondeterministic closed-source proprietary crap.
Seems deterministic. OOBE connects -> Doesn't connect ->
Unboxed a new Acer laptop yesterday
Fucking crap.
Got it.
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@anotherusername said in The Windows 10 Random Error Generator:
3.25%
If you trust one source. StatCounter puts the difference between WinXP (7.45%) and Win10 (17.82%) at about 10.37%.
And, given what I can find as for how large of a sample size they have for gathering the data, I'd side with StatCounter's numbers.