I know there's a push for contactless, but this is ridiculous
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@DogsB I'm not going to get a contactless card, especially since I don't live in the UK.
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@Khudzlin said in I know there's a push for contactless, but this is ridiculous:
@DogsB I'm not going to get a contactless card, especially since I don't live in the UK.
My Irish bank gave to me for free when my last card expired. My English bank gave it to me right out of the gate. In hindsight they're an awful idea. Nothing quite looking at your credit card statement and realizing you probably have a caramel espresso problem.
*edit card cash is also a pain in the arse.
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Lille (northern France, almost in (censored)) has the "passpass" contactless system. You scan the card every time you get on any of their network(1), but only when you get on. (If you change e.g. from line 1 to line 2 of the metro, you scan the card when you get on line 1 and when you get on line 2, but it counts as a single journey.) There are no traditional "paper" tickets.
The main WTF is that season-ticket holders had to continue using the old paper tickets for about four months after they introduced the system for everyone else because ... reasons. Also, when the system was first released, the main feature it lacked was, um, reliability.
(1) The network includes:
- The Lille metro, rubber-tyre driverless VAL system, running happily since 1983. One-minute interval between trains at peak time.
- The tramway, which is more properly described as metre-gauge light rail because it is segregated from the roads.
- The buses, some of which actually go into the edges of (censored).
- The TER local rail network (part of SNCF) within, I think, the whole of the département "Nord".
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The Netherlands has the "OV-chipkaart", which is like a nationwide Oyster card or PassPass. You can load products onto the OV-chipkaart, such as a season ticket for bus travel in your local area or a railcard which gives 40% off during off-peak train travel.
The basic principle is easy: you load money onto your card and you can go wherever you want, but remember to touch in and to touch out for each individual leg of your journey. This is because all charging is based on the distance traveled.
The Dutch will shortly be trialling contactless payment cards as well.
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Paris has a subscription system with a contact card. You can do unlimited travel on all the bus, metro (underground), RER (suburb trains) and tramway lines (and even the local TER lines*). If you don't have a subscription, you have to use tickets, which do not permit changeovers between rail lines (metro and RER) and buses (I don't know how they work with tramways), unless you're taking a day ticket.
There are zones, which were used for different rates of subscription and are still used to calculate ticket prices.
- I don't know how far, but it covers at least the département of Paris (yeah, the city has its own), the 3 encircling départements and part of the other 4 départements in the region. It might cover the entire region (but probably not beyond).
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@AlexMedia said in I know there's a push for contactless, but this is ridiculous:
This is because all charging is based on the distance traveled.
Are they still hackable or did they fix that?
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@CoyneTheDup said in I know there's a push for contactless, but this is ridiculous:
But that still gouges the out-of-towner. Use $2.50 in fares, now the tourist is going home with a non-refundable card that is useless to them. So their $2.50 fares cost them $10.00.
That's a real short-ass trip.
@CoyneTheDup said in I know there's a push for contactless, but this is ridiculous:
They can't even give the residue to some lucky stranger, since the cards are not transferable.
Orca cards are, AFAIK. Not sure how they'd even check it'd been "transferred". It has cash value on it, just hand it to someone.
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@Steve_The_Cynic said in I know there's a push for contactless, but this is ridiculous:
département "Nord"
I had the strangest thing this weekend ... driving from the south past the département du Nord road sign ... and it didn't started raining ...
Possibly because it had been raining from Orlèans but I don't believe it.
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@blakeyrat said in I know there's a push for contactless, but this is ridiculous:
They have to preload with $10
The card costs $5. Then you put however much you want on it.
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@CoyneTheDup said in I know there's a push for contactless, but this is ridiculous:
But that still gouges the out-of-towner. Use $2.50 in fares, now the tourist is going home with a non-refundable card that is useless to them. So their $2.50 fares cost them $10.00. They can't even give the residue to some lucky stranger, since the cards are not transferable.
Actually, it doesn't. Since you can't do a transfer from SoundTransit to King County Metro without an Orca card if you pay cash you end up paying the light rail fail ~$3.50 + the metro fare ~$2.50. However when you get the card, since it does an automatic transfer you don't have to pay the bus fair. Assuming you take a bus and the light rail in/out of Seattle, it ends up being a wash.
Granted this is only assuming you're going to take the light rail to downtown and then hop on the bus, but since that's the most common use-case I don't see the problem really.
Plus, there's no fare difference between cash and Orca, ignoring the transfer thing.
Also I was thinking about the cost of the card not the residual unused fare, of which I have $10 because I'm poor at planning.
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@Luhmann said in I know there's a push for contactless, but this is ridiculous:
@AlexMedia said in I know there's a push for contactless, but this is ridiculous:
This is because all charging is based on the distance traveled.
Are they still hackable or did they fix that?
That's pretty much been fixed. Newly issued cards have better microchips, and the back end systems cross-checks the card balance against what the balance of your card should be according to the transaction history.
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@AlexMedia said in I know there's a push for contactless, but this is ridiculous:
That's pretty much been fixed.
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@AlexMedia said in I know there's a push for contactless, but this is ridiculous:
That's pretty much been fixed. Newly issued cards have better microchips, and the back end systems cross-checks the card balance against what the balance of your card should be according to the transaction history.
Does that also block cloning student cards?
Is Dutch, but only very rarely uses OV
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@PleegWat said in I know there's a push for contactless, but this is ridiculous:
Does that also block cloning student cards?
The chip in the original OV-chipkaart was a NXP MiFare Classic, which could be bruteforced for its encryption keys. The new chips (from Infineon) pretend to be MiFare's, but they're smarter than that: they can detect bruteforce attempts and subsequently block them, rendering attacks useless.
I don't know how far the checks in the back end go. I suppose that if a card is detected which has a travel product to which it is not entitled (as in your example), it will be blocked. Furthermore, the transport companies might start legal proceedings.
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@lolwhat I'm so glad I don't live in Miami any more. Oregon FTW.
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@dse said in I know there's a push for contactless, but this is ridiculous:
Clipper is the utmost shit. You have to pay 20 days in advance if you want to pay online, and their website is TR
Because I only use mine about once a year now (I have a Go-Pass from work) when I take CalTrain/BART to SFO, the money I put on the card last year still isn't there. Because I haven't tapped the card. According to the website, it's in the account... We'll see what happens in May...
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Reloadable cards, eh?
In my (Canadian) city, we still have little papers that you buy at a local store, rip out of the book, and put in the fare box for each trip. You can ask for a transfer slip that has an expiry date/time on it if you need to transfer to another bus/train.
Our city hired a contractor to implement a payment card system, twice. After millions of dollars spent they also fired them, twice, for inability to deliver a working system.
Considering that gift cards are everywhere now I can't imagine how it is so hard or expensive to implement a card for transit fares. We already have GPS devices on buses and a method of transmitting their location (possibly using 3G) to display on the transit web site, so there is at least some of the networking in place.
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@quijibo said in I know there's a push for contactless, but this is ridiculous:
You can ask for a transfer slip that has an expiry date/time on it if you need to transfer to another bus/train.
I had those as a teen. They marked the time they expired, but nobody ever checked that, and anyway I tended to bus home around the same time every day; they rotated colors for weekdays, but sometimes I'd save a slip for a week and avoid paying my fare at all because I was a broke-ass teenager. Good times.
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@RaceProUK It pleases us greatly that you have returned to the pony fold.
とても嬉しいです ^_^
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@Yamikuronue Reminds me of the strip system that was used on the buses around home when I was that age. It was a system that was quick, and actually worked pretty well (provided you didn't wash the strip; the magnetic stripe on the back didn't like that). The strips cost the same as 10 journeys, but gave you 12, punching out a bit of the edge of the strip for every trip (and the bus driver could easily tell if you'd used the punch machine, as could people sitting at the back of the bus). Or 13 if you were careful about inserting the strip slowly…
Being seriously short of money really colours how you go about living.
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@Yamikuronue There's apparently a market in Seattle for forged bus transfer slips. They print them in every color and just hope nobody looks too closely at them. (Nobody does.)
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@dkf said in I know there's a push for contactless, but this is ridiculous:
if you were careful about inserting the strip slowly
Or pull it out more while the clipper arm is engaging? Certainly people have come up with more "hacks" than that, right?
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@Tsaukpaetra said in I know there's a push for contactless, but this is ridiculous:
Or pull it out more while the clipper arm is engaging?
IIRC, the clipper arm was inside a steel box so you couldn't do it by sight.
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@Luhmann said in [I know there's a push for contactless:
@Steve_The_Cynic said in I know there's a push for contactless, but this is ridiculous:
département "Nord"
I had the strangest thing this weekend ... driving from the south past the département du Nord road sign ... and it didn't started raining ...
Possibly because it had been raining from Orlèans but I don't believe it.
Yeah, it was weird yesterday. There was this big bright light in the sky most of the day. I mean, so bright you couldn't look at it. And the sky itself was blue, not grey. I don't understand.
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@Steve_The_Cynic said in [I know there's a push for contactless:
I don't understand.
The Apocalypse is near!
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@Steve_The_Cynic said in [I know there's a push for contactless:
And the sky itself was blue, not grey. I don't understand.
Old man yells at lack of clouds?
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@dcon said in I know there's a push for contactless, but this is ridiculous:
Because I haven't tapped the card. According to the website, it's in the account... We'll see what happens in May...
Thanks for the purchase. Now wait one month to see what you actually purchased because we do not tell you in the email, nor our website! Oh BTW, we do not have a single office in the CalTrain just to make sure you have to waste your time if there are screwed up situations or if you want to get a replacement card.
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@dse said in I know there's a push for contactless, but this is ridiculous:
Oh BTW, we do not have a single office in the CalTrain
The only place I know that you can get live updates onto the card is the Walgreens (or whatever drugstore that is) next to the 4th and King station.
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I actually used contactless on the tube yesterday. Wish I'd done it before, it's the simplest way to use it.
Doubly so as I accidentally got the earlier journey out for freeReturn journey. Not only simpler but way cheaper:
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@dcon AFAIK you can charge the card at any Walgreens in the bay area.
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@coldandtired GO transit in Ontario (Canada) does it for their buses and trains under the Presto card name.
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@dse said in I know there's a push for contactless, but this is ridiculous:
Clipper is the utmost shit.
Me tries to Tag On the fucking clipper to load the monthly pass, and of course it does not beep right, because clipper.
Call Clipper to tell them it shows I have a monthly pass but it is not loaded, even though I tagged on and off today.
shouting over the phone You have forgotten to Tag Off 2 months ago and your balance has become negative and it does not matter that you already had monthly pass even back then.
Ok then why it worked last 2 months?
You got lucky, somehow it loaded but it should not!
Ok but that means I am charged for something that I should not have been charged for and the charge should be dropped, making my balance positive so I could load the monthly pass.
shouting It looks like it is loaded this time too (let me check to see why)! You got lucky again it should not have been loaded.Now 1 day later I get an email that my Clipper is loaded! Clipper is the utmost shit, from their website to absolutely rude customer service to its fucking stupid weird-ass loading.
You have to tag on and off to load the monthly pass, but if one of those is not registered you are fucked because not only the monthly pass is not loaded to the card, but also it charges you double causing the balance to become negative and disallowing any further interaction until cash is added to the card. You have to load the fucking cash in a Wallgreen because of course in 2016 all online transactions take 20 days to process.
In the meanwhile your online history shows you have purchased some service, but not exactly what or how much? All CalTrain conductors already have a little device that shows them service I already have so what is this stupid dance with tagging on and off. </rant>
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@dse The Orca card readers have a 2-line LCD screen that shows exactly what you were charged and/or which pass was used.
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@Maciejasjmj said in I know there's a push for contactless, but this is ridiculous:
@coldandtired said in I know there's a push for contactless, but this is ridiculous:
@Maciejasjmj said in I know there's a push for contactless, but this is ridiculous:
...but with our Oyster analogues, you punch them when you enter and leave the bus so that it can charge you based on the exact amount of stops you've traversed.
Which cities do that?
Poznań. And I think that's the only one.
The system is... kinda special, as most public systems in Poland are.
Well, in Kraków you can either buy a "period" ticket: 15 minutes, 1 ride or 40 minutes, going up to 2 weeks, or you can buy a KKM (translates to Kraków City Card), which is from a month upwards, either for a specific line, or for all lines. It's fucking cheap as hell, I pay around $25 for a month for all city lines. Cards valid for suburbia are more expensive, though.
Also, the one line cards are great too, because this line constraint doesn't mean you can only ride bus/tram with a specific number, but any bus/tram as long as you're traveling the same path your line does.
There's a quite sweet city transit system in Kraków.