"I'm marinating a bitcoin in a Node.js brine"
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Last time I considered it for playing around with something:
- there wasn't a good GUI for mysql and entities framework
- sql server express data size limit was a problem
- my OEM windows license cant be used in a VM
- VS didn't run on linux
- windows and iis hosting is more expensive
I'll consider it again since you said Mono is doing better now
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there wasn't a good GUI for mysql and entities framework
That has nothing to do with Visual Studio.
sql server express data size limit was a problem
That has nothing to do with Visu--
You know what, lets cut to the fucking chase: NONE OF THOSE REASONS HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH VISUAL STUDIO and go fuck yourself.
Not replying to this moron: confirmed as good move. Reinstated.
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The only "fun" thing about developing software, either as an occupation or a hobby, is finishing the software.
LIES. It's lots of fun to solve lots of little problems. Do you not enjoy any of your games except for finishing them?
EDIT: Do you not enjoy the process of woodworking, or just getting the end result?
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So you seriously just like dicking around with code more than developing software?
yes.That's mental illness.
i respectfully disagree.which is one of the many reasons to continue the theme of this weekend and yesterday, that this industry is FUCKING TERRIBLE.
I'm not forcing you to continue working in an industry you hate. if you hate it then you are more than free to seek some other trade that offers more job satisfaction. With your love or ranting i'd suggest radio talk show host, or something in politics.
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LIES. It's lots of fun to solve lots of little problems.
Right; but you do that when you're designing the software. The only "little problems" you get when typing in the code are stuff like minor syntax errors due to typos and dealing with exceptions or error states you didn't anticipate. Handling those isn't fun, it's tedium.
Do you not enjoy any of your games except for finishing them?
If writing code was even 1/10th as fun as, say, solving Portal then I'd have no problem with it.
Writing code is more like playing Antichamber, that puzzle where you have to write all those chains of blocks of the exact correct length and if you screw it up you have to start over and it takes like 45 minutes to set it up: it takes like 45 seconds to figure out the solution to the problem, but then 45 minutes to implement the solution you figured out. The code is the implementation part, and no, it's not fun-- not in Antichamber, not in "writing software: the game".
So yes, I could see drawing-up your little flowchart on a whiteboard being considered fun. But implementing that flowchart in code? Tedium. And not just tedium in the way "typing out your essay" is in college, but tedium that constantly interrupts you with annoyances you have to solve.
EDIT: although now it occurs to me, I bet accalia never designs anything, I bet she just sits in front of the code editor and starts directly from the source code, writing whatever spaghetti shit comes into her head. Because the only way you could consider writing code fun is if you design & code at the same time.
EDIT: Do you not enjoy the process of woodworking, or just getting the end result?
I don't enjoy either; but I know people don't use shitty tools when doing it. IT is the only field where people use shitty tools on purpose.
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The code is the implementation part, and no, it's not fun-- not in Antichamber, not in "writing software: the game".
Untrue, I submit that if this is the case for you you are
EDIT: although now it occurs to me, I bet accalia never designs anything, I bet she just sits in front of the code editor and starts directly from the source code, writing whatever spaghetti shit comes into her head.
Untrue.
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If writing code was even 1/10th as fun as, say, solving Portal then I'd have no problem with it.
Writing code is a million times more fun to me than playing any game I've ever played. It is like this for many software developers I know. Just because you hate it doesn't mean everyone does.
Sometimes life is about the journey, not the destination. Yes, having a "Solution" in your head is nice and all, but finding the pitfalls and gotchas of implementing said solution is, to be honest, the biggest joy in my life.
The joy of using alternate programming languages is understanding someone else solution to a problem. In doing such, you gain a greater insight into the problem.
There usually isn't a single correct answer to a problem, but a multitude of great answers with their own tradeoffs.
I write code strictly for the joy of writing code. I just happen to get paid to do it as well.
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Writing code is a million times more fun to me than playing any game I've ever played
You are insane.
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Writing code is a million times more fun to me than playing any game I've ever played.
I don't believe you. Or you've literally only played Monopoly in your entire life.
It is like this for many software developers I know.
Do any of them produce good software? I wager there's a correlation between people who enjoy writing code and people who produce really terrible software.
Sometimes life is about the journey, not the destination.
Ok; but as I've stated several times, I enjoy the journey of creating software. I just hate the part where you're writing code, because it stalls the process to a fucking halt. It's just some annoying thing that gets in-between the actually enjoyable parts of the project.
Yes, having a "Solution" in your head is nice and all, but finding the pitfalls and gotchas of implementing said solution is, to be honest, the biggest joy in my life.
Again: I do not believe you.
Either that or you are Amish, and thus in violation of your oath by posting here.
The joy of using alternate programming languages is understanding someone else solution to a problem. In doing such, you gain a greater insight into the problem.
If my problem is, "writing software to do health insurance enrollments", how the holy fuck could learning Node.JS help me understand that?
What exactly are you using as the definition of the word "problem" here?
I write code strictly for the joy of writing code.
You're also a pathological liar.
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http://www.zachtronics.com/tis-100/
Hrm... a game that simulates what it was like in the early days of developing in assembly language....
this game actually looks awesome.
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EDIT: although now it occurs to me, I bet accalia never designs anything, I bet she just sits in front of the code editor and starts directly from the source code, writing whatever spaghetti shit comes into her head. Because the only way you could consider writing code fun is if you design & code at the same time.
Well, it really depends on how you define "coding".
As an overall process of implementing your design, it can be fun. Even if you have your overall design thought out in advance, you still get ideas, try out how stuff works, and come up with creative solutions to small problems you encounter along the way (like "how do I pass this argument to this function? Oh, I know, I'll do it like that. Man, that's clever.").
If you define it as literally "typing words from brain to screen" and separate it from any independent thought you have along the way - duh, it's as much fun as taking a typist course.
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Well, it really depends on how you define "coding".
The normal way. Writing code.
As an overall process of implementing your design, it can be fun.
No.
Designing a solution can be fun, as I've already said. Doing reams of typing and dealing with bullshit like syntax errors is just an obstacle in the way.
(like "how do I pass this argument to this function? Oh, I know, I'll do it like that. Man, that's clever.").
... huh?
There's only like two ways to do it, and if you actually bothered to design the code you'd already know which to pick.
If you define it as literally "typing words from brain to screen" and separate it from any independent thought you have along the way - duh, it's as much fun as taking a typist course.
THAT'S WHAT IT IS! Except more annoying somehow.
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What exactly are you using as the definition of the word "problem" here?
I won't speak for others, but most of the coding I enjoy is, well, what the term "hacking" used to mean - I enjoy using existing mechanisms in new ways and making something new and unexpected. Like, one thing that fell through due to browser caching problems I couldn't get around was "Hey, can I use the data from servercooties to render different spinners on the forums depending on the lag?"
Silly? Yes. Useless? Mostly. But I learned more about how browsers handle some types of resources than I ever have in my regular work stuff. And I had fun trying to make it work.
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http://www.zachtronics.com/tis-100/
Level 10 currently. It's like SpaceChem, except there's no risk someone who isn't a total geek is going to understand what's going on.
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I don't believe you
Is it so hard to believe that someone actually enjoys what they do? Are you really that jaded?
Do any of them produce good software?
Some, yes. Some, no. Such is the way with developers.
Again: I do not believe you.
Again: Is it really so hard to imagine a world where someone does, in fact, enjoy this?
Either that or you are Amish
Not quite, but did grow up in a luddite farming community where I didn't have access to computers and software growing up like I wanted to. Probably why I enjoy development to the level I do today.
If my problem is ..... learning Node.JS help me understand that?
Learning Node.JS, in this particular situation might not. But studying how other people approach the finer problems in your domain will help.
You're also a pathological liar.
True, but not about development. Except in the fact that what is true yesterday isn't always true tomorrow.
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I won't speak for others, but most of the coding I enjoy is, well, what the term "hacking" used to mean - I enjoy using existing mechanisms in new ways and making something new and unexpected.
This is the exact kind of wankery that pisses me off.
Use software to SOLVE PROBLEMS. If you're not solving problems, what's the fucking point?
Silly? Yes. Useless? Mostly. But I learned more about how browsers handle some types of resources than I ever have in my regular work stuff. And I had fun trying to make it work.
Right; but that was the figuring out the problem part that you're saying was fun. I agree with that.
The boring tedious part is the actual writing of the code. That's the part that accalia and uncreative seem to think is like a rollercoaster of fun.
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There's only like two ways to do it, and if you actually bothered to design the code you'd already know which to pick.
I take it you're the kind of person that has all their code figured out to a letter before they even bother to open up an IDE? Well yeah, in this case coding isn't fun at all.
Point is,
normalmost people don't do that - they intertwine writing code with polishing their design via trial and error, and call the whole process "coding". And the "polishing the design" part can be fun, because you're actually solving problems there.
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Use software to SOLVE PROBLEMS. If you're not solving problems, what's the fucking point?
It's so obvious now. You really just don't get it do you? Some of us do this because WE LOVE/LIKE/ENJOY IT!
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Is it so hard to believe that someone actually enjoys what they do? Are you really that jaded?
He only admits to understanding hyperbole when he writes it.
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Is it so hard to believe that someone actually enjoys what they do? Are you really that jaded?
You didn't just say you enjoyed it, you said you enjoyed it a million times more than any game you've ever played. (Or whatever, I'm not going to scroll up.)
I do not believe that.
If that's not what you meant to say, well, sorry I guess? But that's what you typed, and I don't believe it for one nanosecond.
Some, yes. Some, no. Such is the way with developers.
I'm guessing: All, no.
Not quite, but did grow up in a luddite farming community where I didn't have access to computers and software growing up like I wanted to. Probably why I enjoy development to the level I do today.
Wow wait until you learn about sex.
Learning Node.JS, in this particular situation might not.
Of course it fucking won't. But that's the thing: you just, without any detectable amount of irony, said it would. BASED ON WHAT? There's literally no way that could be true, and yet you just plopped it right down here on the forum without any critical thought whatsoever.
But studying how other people approach the finer problems in your domain will help.
Maybe it would, but what the fuck does that have to do with the discussion we're in right now?
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He only admits to understanding hyperbole when he writes it.
You didn't just say you enjoyed it, you said you enjoyed it a million times more than any game you've ever played. (Or whatever, I'm not going to scroll up.)
I do not believe that.
TA DA!
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This is the exact kind of wankery that pisses me off.
Use software to SOLVE PROBLEMS. If you're not solving problems, what's the fucking point?
Learning. I do this web stuff at work, too. And even if I didn't, I might in the next job. I don't have the time to experiment with such stuff while at work - I have deadlines and shit to worry about. So I do it at home.
And it happened more than once to me that some of that "wankery" actually came up as a legitimate issue at work, and I saved everyone man-hours of work by saying "ok, guys, I actually tried that, it went so-and-so".
The boring tedious part is the actual writing of the code. That's the part that accalia and uncreative seem to think is like a rollercoaster of fun.
But figuring out how to actually write it in a language or technology you're not familiar with might be. Look, I'm enjoying this conversation right now. I don't enjoy hitting the keys, but I enjoy actually making those keystrokes do things, in this case moving the conversation forward.
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I take it you're the kind of person that has all their code figured out to a letter before they even bother to open up an IDE?
Of course. How else do you do it? Just fumble around?
But I usually keep the IDE open.
Well yeah, in this case coding isn't fun at all.
NO FUCKING SHIT.
Point is, normalmost people don't do that - they intertwine writing code with polishing their design via trial and error, and call the whole process "coding".
So basically, accalia's a hack who just sits right down at the editor window and types spaghetti, like I said about 15 posts up and accalia denied?
Look, you get together with her and figure it the fuck out, ok? Because what you're saying is fine, but that doesn't explain accalia.
And the "polishing the design" part can be fun, because you're actually solving problems there.
Refactoring? I... guess?
It's so obvious now. You really just don't get it do you? Some of us do this because WE LOVE/LIKE/ENJOY IT!
I enjoy creating software. I do not enjoy writing code. I don't see how this is difficult.
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If that's not what you meant to say, well, sorry I guess? But that's what you typed, and I don't believe it for one nanosecond.
It is exactly what I meant to say, and while the number probably isn't exactly 1 million, the sentiment is true. I've never had more fun than being lights off, headphones on, elbow deep into solving some crazy bullshit problem in code. I've written horrible code, i've written good code, and everywhere between. This is one of the great joys of my life. Is that so hard to believe?
I'm guessing: All, no.
Life is not absolutes, my friend.
Wow wait until you learn about sex.
Wow, wait till you stop being an infant!
But that's the thing: you just, without any detectable amount of irony, said it would.
Correction, i said understanding someone else's outlook on your problem will help your understanding of the problem.
Maybe it would, but what the fuck does that have to do with the discussion we're in right now?
I guess i'm feebly trying to help you understand that your viewpoint is shit, because you are speaking in unwavering absolutes based on your own mis-evaluations of the situation
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So basically, accalia's a hack who just sits right down at the editor window and types spaghetti, like I said about 15 posts up and accalia denied?
Look, you get together with her and figure it the fuck out, ok? Because what you're saying is fine, but that doesn't explain accalia.
Is this how you imagine all open source and hobby programming? No wonder you hate it then.
Look, if we want to go into specifics here and pull in @accalia specifically, a hobby project we're working on started by us arguing design on GitHub for days before we even set up a dev server. And we only discussed the design in the broadest sense possible.
You're buttuming too much.
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And we only discussed the design in the broadest sense possible.
yeah. we need to have some more discussions on that actually. some more details need hammering out.
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It is exactly what I meant to say,
Right; because you're a pathological liar. We already covered this.
Correction, i said understanding someone else's outlook on your problem will help your understanding of the problem.
Right; but we're talking about using Node.JS because it's "fun". That's the topic. If you weren't referring to the topic, why the fuck did you say that?
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If you think "writing code" is not the means but the ends, and not just a really fucking irritating and annoying thing you have to do to get to the ends, then your brain is broken. I don't know any other way of putting it.
If you think writing code can't be every bit as much fun as any other kind of creative writing, or that code can't embody beauty, then your brain is sad. I don't know any other way of putting it.
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It's lots of fun to solve lots of little problems.
QFT.Fuck.
I am agreeing with @boomzilla.
Who are those blokes on horses?
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If writing code was even 1/10th as fun as, say, solving Portal then I'd have no problem with it.
This is the specific point you made that I honed in on and offered up an alternate argument to said point.
You are using said point as evidence against using Node.JS.
You decided to offer up arguments against my arguments, and thus larger debate of these finer points of your arguments ensued.
Is this not how discussions go?
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If you think writing code can't be every bit as much fun as any other kind of creative writing,
The writing part of creative writing isn't fun. It's just tedium you have to get over. The creativity part is fun.
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the only way you could consider writing code fun is if you design & code at the same time.
You have dyslexia. Not all of us do. For many of us, coding and design inform each other, and working out how best to express a design in code really is fun. That's not mental illness; that's completely valid enjoyment of improving one's craft.
INB4 craft != engineering. Any engineer who truly believes that engineering involves no craft is a shitty engineer.
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and working out how best to express a design in code really is fun.
But you do that on a whiteboard (or whatever). That's not coding. Coding is writing the code.
Am I talking Martian here? Is that the problem?
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You are insane.
Nope. Lucky. Best possible career involves getting paid good money to play with the toys you'd choose to play with anyway.
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I just hate the part where you're writing code, because it stalls the process to a fucking halt. It's just some annoying thing that gets in-between the actually enjoyable parts of the project.
Again, I think your view on that is skewed by your brain's relationship with language.
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Ok; say it is. That still doesn't explain why you'd choose shitty tools over good tools.
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Is that supposed to be a beaver knight?
http://media.dota-trade.com/img/screenshots/l/b/beaver-knight-utlc5zfhi.jpg
the original idea was to use the same programming language for both client and server
GWT has
what plants craveshared code between services and ui. Yeah it's gotelectrolytesstrong typing
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come up with creative solutions to small problems you encounter along the way (like "how do I pass this argument to this function? Oh, I know, I'll do it like that. Man, that's clever.").
Then you figure out the right way to do it, and you're like "Man, fuck clever. This is clean."
Good code is what's left after deleting nine tenths of what you've written.
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Doing reams of typing and dealing with bullshit like syntax errors is just an obstacle in the way.
Some of us type at very high speed and simply don't make an irritating number of syntax errors.
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I haven't even finished Spacechem. I've got like 3 planets to go still. >.>
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you are speaking in unwavering absolutes based on your own mis-evaluations of the situation
To be fair, that is his schtick.
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@blakeyrat said:
Doing reams of typing and dealing with bullshit like syntax errors is just an obstacle in the way.
Some of us type at very high speed and simply don't make an irritating number of syntax errors.
and some of us that do are not terribly bothered by it.
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That still doesn't explain why you'd choose shitty tools over good tools.
But you do that on a whiteboard (or whatever). That's not coding. Coding is writing the code.
A whiteboard seems like a far inferior tool than a keyboard. But that could be my penmanship disability.
While diagrams are useful for a certain level of detail, they don't get down far enough to fully determine the implementation in my experience. As @Maciejasjmj noted, there are always lots of little details that higher level processes didn't cover (or uncover, as the case may be).
And that's before you figure out the mistakes in your design. I'm not talking about syntax errors and junk, but bona fide logic errors and the like. I find those during each and every part of the process, from high level design to debugging and performance tuning.
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While diagrams are useful for a certain level of detail, they don't get down far enough to fully determine the implementation in my experience.
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The ones I draw do. Except sometimes variable names, if they're obvious. I guess if you only look at super-high-level design, but then we're back to monkeys just typing shit directly into the code editor without thinking about it first.
And that's before you figure out the mistakes in your design. I'm not talking about syntax errors and junk, but bona fide logic errors and the like. I find those during each and every part of the process, from high level design to debugging and performance tuning.
Me too, but it's not fun.
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It's well known among authors that there are two kinds of writers: planners and pantsers. Planners know every detail of their plot before they write a single word of their novel. Pantsers know the broad strokes of where a scene is going, then sit down and, envisioning the scene, write the details as they go. During the editing process, planners rarely change their plot details, instead just tweaking places where the wording didn't go as planned. They paid their dues up front, and have an easier time editing. Pantsers, by contrast, spend a lot of time in the editing process refining their minor plot details. However, they feel that it helps their writing end up more natural, because they can adjust the details of the plot on the fly depending how the scenes are turning out.
Over the years, I've discovered this to be true of developers as well. Blakey is obviously a planner, but there are also pantsers. It's not that they don't do any planning; they do it as they go, in small chunks, refactoring as they go until they end up at an elegant design. A lot of them hate the idea of planning something elegant and then finding out their libraries don't work as designed and having to stop and re-plan the whole thing; they'd rather plan each section right as they get to it.
Planners tend to like waterfall. Pantsers tend to like agile. Both styles can produce good code or shit code.
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Just one question: can I be a pantser and code without my pants actually on?
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Yes :)
