Computer Science as an fart.
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Well, she was a part of the Chrome browser team, so duh, she's probably at least above average. Oooh, I bet she has all sorts of neat stuff on github!
I would expect the Chrome browser team, like most teams full of Google coders, to be anti-social and terrible at explaining things in a useful way. You know, like Google products are.
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Soft skill interview is maybe something you can do after you've established technical skills are up to par and there's choice to be made.
Well, to be fair, the OP point I was making was from the perspective of the person looking to get hired.
The suggestion was to meet your future team through GitHub, by doing a bunch of stuff for free.
My point is that it's awfully similar to the whole, business puts art request out, and only pays the person they like.
And that's only going to make the professional field worse.
Also, how would you test for that anyway?
You can't.
Again, you keep taking an interviewing perspective on this.
My only point is that these skills are crucial to a professional team.
Not that they can be trained by a school, or that they can be determined by an interview. That's a tangent we got off on.
My thoughts on all this is that we keep drifting further away from companies being responsible for training and instilling professionalism, when they're the only ones who can actually do that.
And from a big picture (not just the temporary hiring needs of one business on one occasion), everyone is pointing fingers at each other, waiting for someone to do it, and then bitching that the latest generation of programmers aren't professional and that soft skills aren't present in the work force.
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And have fingers left over.
To be honest about myself included.
I can count on one hand.... and have a hand left over.
Of the ability to shit crappy software that barely works. Yay.
Also, there's no accountability.
If it partially works, people seem to be impressed at the class structures.
It's like a Steam Early Access game.... it never leaves Early Access, and it's never held accountable for real business needs.
But it gets thumbs up because "the developer is active".
2 years later, there's a single bad post saying the developer abandoned the product, and the meta score is "Mixed".
I would say, close to the majority, blakey may be even more skeptical, of Early Access games (EA games? LOL) developers wouldn't make it in a AAA title business environment.
I take that back. There's been a lot of low quality EA behavior from big companies lately....
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Ubisoft took over the "shitty game developer" badge from EA some time ago.
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I stopped following after AC: Brotherhood. Every game after was a disappointment. What's happened since?
I mean, I liked the future story, even though it was a McGuffin.... and they ruined the hell out of it in 3, and Revelations.... that was a big
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Other than Rayman, I don't buy Ubisoft shit.
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@cartman82 said:
They are just the skill that 90% of people have just by being people.
Hahaha whaaa?
I can count the software developers I've worked with who are also clear communicators on one hand. And have fingers left over.
Because normal people don't excel in STEM fields.
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I'm told that Black Flag was OK because you can just sail around pirating the hell out of ships, and that that was a part of the game they did quite well at. I've not tried it myself.
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The solution I can see is to reinstate apprenticeship for software development.
Funny thing: Right now, I'm basically an apprentice carpet installer, and if I were to stay with it I'd expect to be apprentice level for at least another year. And yet I get the impression that when I move into a programming/software development job, I'll basically start at journeyman level expectations. Is that impression correct?
The trend is going towards colleges trying to teach soft skills.... even if that trend is slow and full of fail.
I suspect this is going to be one of those "the customer doesn't know what they want" things. I suspect a sizable portion of college students (that are actually interested in this subject) are not going to take to soft skills classes seriously, and will instead view them as just another liberal arts BS requirement they have tolerate to get their degree. The relevance may not be obvious without prior exposure to a business environment and/or an understanding of how many and what types of non-technical skills are required for this type of work.
The point is, you're basically advocating for testing whether you're a normal, well adjusted human being. Which, sure, it's important and all. But most people actually are.
You know, if we're going by stereotypes that's not actually the case for this field. But that would beI thought the programmer position evolved beyond neck-beards in dungeons....
...stereotyping.
Now look, I may have some beardly hairs on my neck, and the room I'm in may bear a noticeable absence of light, but...
Oh hell, I'm a neck-beard in an elevated dungeon
Anyway, my impression of all this so far is that I should really read this, but it won't do me any good because it's not on-the-job training.
I'm told that Black Flag was OK because you can just sail around pirating the hell out of ships, and that that was a part of the game they did quite well at. I've not tried it myself.
Ditto. The reviews basically seemed to be "The Assassin's Creed part of it was meh, but the pirating the hell out of ships was great! They should make a game that just focuses on that.".
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My thoughts on all this is that we keep drifting further away from companies being responsible for training and instilling professionalism, when they're the only ones who can actually do that.
And from a big picture (not just the temporary hiring needs of one business on one occasion), everyone is pointing fingers at each other, waiting for someone to do it, and then bitching that the latest generation of programmers aren't professional and that soft skills aren't present in the work force.
+1
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when I move into a programming/software development job, I'll basically start at journeyman level expectations. Is that impression correct?
That's about it, yes.
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The relevance may not be obvious without prior exposure to a business environment and/or an understanding of how many and what types of non-technical skills are required for this type of work.
That's why putting students in touch with mentors from industry (and hopefully getting them a placement for some period of time) is extremely useful.
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Even the most basic agile course will spend half its time on communication.
Given that one of the cornerstones of Agile is to increase communication with the product owner/customer, that's not really a surprise? Or at least it'd better not be.
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Well, with all the talk of communication being something a normal person already knows...
I suppose they're just wasting their time teaching it.
I suppose marketers, sales, presenters, and all that jazz.... just basic skills....
Hell, the cleaning lady can do it....
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My thoughts on all this is that we keep drifting further away from companies being responsible for training and instilling professionalism, when they're the only ones who can actually do that.
Unfortunately, most companies don't see things that way, especially about IT personnel. In part this is because of the general contradiction of wanting to get professional behavior from employees without granting them professional status. However, in the particular case of IT, the problem is compounded by the fact that a lot of non-IT managers don't know what to make of IT staff, and tend to see them as either interchangeable day laborers, who are thus not expected to be professional in either outlook or behavior, or as incomprehensible wizards who have to be tolerated no matter how outrageous their personality quirks are. This is a lot less true than it used to be, but as a rule no one in corporate management (including those who came out of IT themselves) wants IT to be a real profession because it would disrupt the existing balance of power too much.OTOH, it isn't as we as a field have done much about that. Our professional standards are essentially nonexistent, as the very existence of TDWTF demonstrates. We're only fifteen years away from the days when anyone with an MCSE, an HTML book under their arm, and a fancy buzzword-laden patter could get hired as a senior developer, and it shows.
And from a big picture (not just the temporary hiring needs of one business on one occasion), everyone is pointing fingers at each other, waiting for someone to do it, and then bitching that the latest generation of programmers aren't professional and that soft skills aren't present in the work force.
IME, the blame game and telling the kids that they aren't as good your generation were is SOP in all fields. If anything, IT is better at avoiding it than most, but that's often because disasters are so common that there's more than enough blame to go around.
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My kid's elementary school used to have a STEM lab. This year they have a STEAM lab.
Fucking special snowflake art teachers.
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They play games in school? Like, as a mandatory thing?
I want to go back!
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They play games in school? Like, as a mandatory thing?
Eh...In P.E. I guess? Maybe they play some educational software disguised as games?
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Lets play Human Resource Machine!
...what, it's kind of educational.
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Lets play Human Resource Machine!
I'm picturing a The Incredible Machine / Lemmings hybrid."Now turn this one into a Software Developer, and put him there..."
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The Incredible Machine
oooh, now there's a game i had hours of fun with!
I managed to get a run of the base set of levels (about 140 levels IIRC) down to just over two hours, which was impressive, even if it was just memorizing the solutions.
what was really fun is the included level editor and all the crazy contraptions you could build to get your friends to try and solve. :-D
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"Now turn this one into a Software Developer, and put him there..."
Remember to use IT Support Manager as a blocking role. Then, once you're done you just blow the sucker up! Win-win!
I played Lemmings far too much…
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@accalia said:
the included level editor
Perpetual motion bouncing mice FTW!
perpetual motion? sure.... but the fun you could have trying to get them all to lemming....
that was much easier in TIM2 when they added (or changed i forget which) the cat.
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Available on GoodOldGames : http://www.gog.com/game/the_incredible_machine_mega_pack
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I think the cat was there in 1, but I didn't need a cat to make a perpetual mouse machine. Just pipes, slopes and the bouncers. Didn't work with balls though; they had the wrong flight characteristics.
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There's actually a sort of sequel by the same developers on steam now. I haven't played much of it, and didn't play much of the original, but it was fairly entertaining.
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I think the cat was there in 1, but I didn't need a cat to make a perpetual mouse machine. Just pipes, slopes and the bouncers. Didn't work with balls though; they had the wrong flight characteristics.
Bowling, basket, or tennis balls?
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Bowling, basket, or tennis balls?
All were tried. Only mice had the right flight characteristics.
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