From the darkest, blackest, most evil parts of my soul
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see?
:-D
edit: even if i did misspell shenanigan.....
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After 10 translations Bing says: You can see that? :-D
Filed under: English -> Vietnamese -> Chinese Simplified -> Bulgarian -> Japanese -> Latvian -> Lithuanian -> Norwegian -> Slovak -> Russian -> Polish -> English
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cool! the smiley survived translation!
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you just automatically Shenanicain
For some reason I can't get enough of this phrase.
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After 10 translations Bing says: For some reason. Can't get enough of this statement.
Filed under: English -> Danish -> Thai -> Arabic -> Estonian -> Japanese -> Finnish -> Lithuanian -> Norwegian -> Romanian -> Latvian -> English
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That's not funny.
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After 10 translations Bing says: It is fun.
Filed under: English -> Hungarian -> Romanian -> Turkish -> Czech -> Dutch -> Vietnamese -> Ukranian -> Slovak -> Lithuanian -> Korean -> English
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That seems unlikely. Of constructed languages, the most useful is almost certainly Esperanto
I don't think extant speakers makes a language useful; if it were so, I'd have to pick English or Chinese. Frankly, I think either of them are better than Esperanto in about every way, even with English's unfortunate spelling issues (which aren't nearly as bad as they seem: http://zompist.com/spell.html -- to a degree, I think this is an issue that pedagogy exacerbates). At this point, having basically become a natural language, Esperanto suffers from many of the same problems.
Besides, I was comparing Ithkuil and lojban since they were two conlangs under discussion; busting in with "Imma let you finish, but Zamenhof did it better" just makes me hate Esperanto (and its enthusiasts) all the more. That said, if I had to pick a conlang, I'd probably go with Ido. It is the least detestable of the Esperanto Spawn in my opinion.
The vocabulary is selected to have cognates (similar-sounding words with similar meanings1) in a range of European languages.
Why misuse the term with a whole footnote if you could have just said what the footnote says? I'm pretty sure these can be considered loanwords; whether they can be considered cognates is probably up for grabs. After all, what's the difference between a "naturally grown" cognate and an artificially selected one?
I agree about the attempt at populism in Lojban's vocabulary. I prefer it, though, for social reasons. An interlang should probably prioritize equality over mass similarity, or it's not much better than current natural interlangs (like English and Chinese). However, I also don't think similarity to one's native language is a good measure of how well a language is learned. I think exposure and immersion are much better, with consumable media in that language (AND NOT WITH SUBTITLES, ANIME FANS) a major benefit. Esperanto has a corner on that market, I think, at least online. There are even movie torrents distributed with Esperanto fan dubs. I know this only because I've spent considerable time mocking a few.
Unfortunately, compared to any artificial interlang, basic English or Chinese are probably more useful in any real sense. Interlinguists tend to assume that a person can only learn one language, also, which I think is quite false. Learning more than one, even if only at a basic level, is probably somewhat conducive to commerce.
What do you think, @translator?
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After 10 translations Bing says: This is a useful language speakers on the wall, and I do not think you need sincerity, United Kingdom or People's Republic of China uses the language of what people think, more than all the world's languages. (Not even the language of United Kingdom n bad spelling.
Filed under: English -> Arabic -> Bulgarian -> Danish -> Thai -> Dutch -> Polish -> Indonesian -> Chinese Simplified -> Romanian -> Korean -> English
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After 10 translations Bing says: This is a useful language speakers on the wall, and I do not think you need sincerity, United Kingdom or People's Republic of China uses the language of what people think, more than all the world's languages. (Not even the language of United Kingdom n bad spelling.
And who can argue with that?
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After 10 translations Bing says: Who can argue with him?
Filed under: English -> Vietnamese -> Estonian -> Dutch -> Finnish -> Hebrew -> Japanese -> Korean -> Ukranian -> Russian -> Swedish -> English
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Fucking heteronormative patriarchy.
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After 10 translations Bing says: The law of the Contracting Parties
Filed under: English -> Spanish -> Hebrew -> German -> Chinese Traditional -> Slovak -> Polish -> Vietnamese -> Thai -> Catalan -> Ukranian -> English
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(AND NOT WITH SUBTITLES, ANIME FANS)
In my case, I took some Japanese in high school and uni as well (which approximately coincides with my beginning of this particular form of media consumption), and am at the point where I often laugh at how things get translated. Seeing a fairly bland exclamation of disapproval shifted into some colloquialism English speakers don't normally use is always fun.
I took Japanese originally because it was offered by the school I went to, needed a couple years of language for high school graduation, and had a hard time with Spanish (remembering other romance languages is hard for me for some reason).
But lets see what @translator does with this one.
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After 10 translations Bing says:
In my case, I bought a Japanese high school and uni is good (which is roughly coincides with the start of these specific forms of media), and is the place where they usually laugh at how things are. Watch beautiful bl
Filed under: English -> Hungarian -> Vietnamese -> Norwegian -> Bulgarian -> Czech -> Danish -> Slovenian -> Slovak -> Russian -> Romanian -> English
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The final statement is especially funny because it is actually pertinent to the topic of my post, were my gender reversed and my interests a bit less wholesome.
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After 10 translations Bing says: Finally, it is actually based on themes more than my sexual orientation is very interesting for all bit me would pay the following benefits.
Filed under: English -> Czech -> Danish -> Vietnamese -> Estonian -> Japanese -> Hebrew -> Spanish -> Indonesian -> Chinese Traditional -> Romanian -> English
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oh goddess... what have i started?
umm..... time to split thread for playing with @translator?
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After 10 translations Bing says: 哦...... in the original question? Bah. Cao also share this topic-reuljaesaengharyeomyeon mega @translator
Filed under: English -> Chinese Simplified -> Indonesian -> Vietnamese -> Korean -> Swedish -> Bulgarian -> Norwegian -> Czech -> Hebrew -> Lithuanian -> English
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I don't think extant speakers makes a language useful; if it were so, I'd have to pick English or Chinese.
I'd agree they are both much more useful than Esperanto, but neither of them are constructed languages, which is what we were talking about.
I think speakers are necessary, but not sufficient, for a language to be useful. A language which nobody speaks is not very useful. On could, perhaps, argue for an exception for languages that are no longer spoken but in which significant literature exists (e.g., various dialects of Ancient Greek).
"Imma let you finish, but Zamenhof did it better" just makes me hate Esperanto (and its enthusiasts) all the more.
I never said Zamenhof did it better, and I'm not an Esperanto enthusiast. I know zero Esperanto. (I can understand Interlingua at a basic level, because of its similarity to languages I do know a little (or a lot, for English-derived Interlingua words).) I only said Esperanto is more useful because of the larger number of users.
Interlinguists tend to assume that a person can only learn one language
I'm not sure who said that. Interlingua proponents don't seem to think so. One of Interlingua's selling points is that learning it makes it easier to learn other languages.
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wow.... you had a hard time with that one, no?
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After 10 translations Bing says: WA ... ... and so far, it is very difficult to think about it, is not.
Filed under: English -> Slovenian -> Chinese Simplified -> Japanese -> Thai -> Dutch -> Vietnamese -> Ukranian -> Czech -> Chinese Traditional -> Finnish -> English
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I'm good with stopping for now. It's replies to me are incredibly funny, though, because of the new direction it took both of them.
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I don't know what language
reuljaesaengharyeomyeoncomes from, because it sounds both Indian and like some offshoot of Chinese, with a rather Latin sounding ending. Very interesting in any case. No idea how it got there.On glancing at the steps, it may just be Korean.
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I think exposure and immersion are much better, with consumable media in that language (AND NOT WITH SUBTITLES, ANIME FANS) a major benefit.
@Magus's post made me decide to reply to this point, too. I am not sufficiently fluent in any language other than English to watch a movie without subtitles and understand what is going on. I prefer subtitles to dubbing because I know enough of a few languages to pick up words here and there, and sometimes even notice when the subtitles don't quite match the original. However, having said that, if I were trying to learn the language and had sufficient basic skill to make some sense out of it, yes, watching without the subtitles would be the way to go.
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To be fair though, I mostly just wanted to see what the bot would do to my subject matter if I talked about that. It surpassed my greatest expectations.
But I'm probably capable of having simple conversations in Japanese, and didn't start with anime, so I don't fit the category anyway.
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All it needs to do is perform a thesaurus lookup for each word in the text and replace with the smallest synonym.
Not quite, it's a new language. So you'd probably start by assingning single letters to common phrases, like "How are you doing", or "Honey I swear it's never happened before", and then when you run out of letters, start using 2-letter words, 3-letter words, etc.
I like the thesaurus, though it needs a fix:
of course it would have to negatively weight the options by synonym quality.
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But I'm probably capable of having simple conversations in Japanese
That's better than I can do. I can get around ok as a tourist in German, Spanish, Italian, maybe French and Greek (although my knowledge of Greek runs more toward ancient than modern, and definitely written, not spoken). I can read street signs and maps. I can go into a shop and, with a combination of words and gestures, find out how much something costs. But a conversation, no.
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I'd agree they are both much more useful than Esperanto, but neither of them are constructed languages, which is what we were talking about.
This is true; I may have engaged in conversation drift by assuming you were referring to usefulness as an interlang rather than usefulness as an artificial interlang.
I think speakers are necessary, but not sufficient, for a language to be useful. A language which nobody speaks is not very useful. On could, perhaps, argue for an exception for languages that are no longer spoken but in which significant literature exists (e.g., various dialects of Ancient Greek).
Ramen. I love Ancient Greek (Attic; none of that "Koinic" BS!).
I never said Zamenhof did it better, and I'm not an Esperanto enthusiast.
Having engaged in a looooooooooooooooooooooooooot of debate (read: flamewars) over Esperanto and its suitability for many purposes in linguistic contexts both in academia and online, I may have a bit of a hair trigger. If it makes me seem more even-handed, I wouldn't really give Lojban much better chances in an online discussion of its merits. I am at best an amateur linguist, BTW.
I'm not sure who said that. Interlingua proponents don't seem to think so. One of Interlingua's selling points is that learning it makes it easier to learn other languages.
I mean interlinguists in the sense of people who study interlangs; I actually don't know what the proper term is for interlinguaphones (apart from that one that I just made up, except that Wikipedia seems to use "interlinguists" to refer to speakers, or at least supporters, of the language).
However, having said that, if I were trying to learn the language and had sufficient basic skill to make some sense out of it, yes, watching without the subtitles would be the way to go.
Most of my language learning has been essentially by this method. I have also tried reading texts with which I am familiar in languages I am studying. (LOTR in Italian is somewhat amusing; French makes Bilbo seem like an asshat.)
But I'm probably capable of having simple conversations in Japanese, and didn't start with anime, so I don't fit the category anyway.
Anime can be good for expanding basic vocabulary and getting some aural fluency; after the basic vocabulary, though, its return on invested time is questionable. At least, as a language learning tool. Heh.
Not quite, it's a new language. So you'd probably start by assingning single letters to common phrases, like "How are you doing", or "Honey I swear it's never happened before", and then when you run out of letters, start using 2-letter words, 3-letter words, etc.
I like the thesaurus, though it needs a fix:
You might even go further and assign the simplest concepts to the quickest utterances, perhaps even with a nod to disambiguation: if "yes" and "no" both sound similar, well, it would certainly make bars more amusing. I even have experience with this where a travelling companion mistook a "si" in a French night club to indicate there was interest. I still wish I know what exactly was said, though. All I know is that he wound up wearing more than one drink back to the hotel.
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I love Ancient Greek (Attic; none of that "Koinic" BS!).
There we must agree to disagree. My knowledge of Greek, such as it is, is Koine.
I wouldn't really give Lojban much better chances in an online discussion of its merits.
I'd give it even less chance, which was the primary point of my OP.I am at best an amateur linguist, BTW.
Likewise.I mean interlinguists in the sense of people who study interlangs;
Yeah, I got that. I just meant that interlinguists who study and/or promote Interlingua seem to disagree with whatever set of interlinguists you were referring to.Most of my language learning has been essentially by this method.
I've had some formal training in Spanish (2 years in high school), German (college independent-study class that I didn't really keep up with) and Greek (classes that I also haven't kept up with). Knowledge of Italian comes mostly from music and its similarity to Spanish. French is also a Romance language, and for a while my ex-wife and I published an online magazine about a French doll, so I picked up a tiny bit from that. I watch quite a few foreign movies (including some without subtitles, when I couldn't find any), and have picked up a new word or two, but I've never made a dedicated attempt to use this for learning the language.I have also tried reading texts with which I am familiar in languages I am studying.
A lot of this in my Greek classes. Did this trying to read Chaucer in Middle English, too, although I was "familiar" with the text only in having a Modern English translation on the opposite page.LOTR in Italian is somewhat amusing; French makes
FTFYBilboeveryone seem like an asshat.
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Fucking heteronormative patriarchy.
The law of the Contracting Parties
Now that's funny.
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So you'd probably start by assingning single letters to common phrases, like "How are you doing", or "Honey I swear it's never happened before", and then when you run out of letters, start using 2-letter words, 3-letter words, etc.
Working out something like a Huffman encoding for THAT would be interesting.
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Heh, you're lucky, getting just a joke.
The responses I got from @translator seemed largely to do largely with suggesting I go spend time reading gay comics.
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After 10 translations Bing says: So we more likely and more it is just a joke. Respond to @Translator guide there as I had pass reading in Drama will hold out.
Filed under: English -> Chinese Simplified -> Arabic -> Portuguese -> Russian -> Lithuanian -> Romanian -> Czech -> Greek -> Thai -> Haitian Creole -> English
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Every time I see this topic title, I hear Ozzy Osbourne reading it.
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FTFY
Not when on stage. And it's very similar to the end of the 1997 reunion performance of Iron Man, which I get on Pandora a lot, except it's not on the Youtube reproductions that I could find.
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I watch quite a few foreign movies (including some without subtitles, when I couldn't find any), and have picked up a new word or two, but I've never made a dedicated attempt to use this for learning the language.
It does take a certain kind of patience, since one might often stop in the middle of a scene either to look up a word or syntactic construction, or replay it to catch a particularly difficult to parse phrase. Also, it helps if the movie or show is rewatchable, or if there is lots of it. I understand that Star Trek has been redubbed in a number of languages... I don't know what the quality of the dub is like, though.
A lot of this in my Greek classes. Did this trying to read Chaucer in Middle English, too, although I was "familiar" with the text only in having a Modern English translation on the opposite page.
I try to avoid having any translations at hand, but I'm not sure if that's actually important or just me being stubborn.
LOTR in Italian is somewhat amusing; French makes
Bilboeveryone seem like an asshat.FTFY
I had originally typed just that, funny enough, but revised it upon reflection.
There we must agree to disagree. My knowledge of Greek, such as it is, is Koine.
I suppose it depends mainly on function. Attic is necessary to study most classical texts. The problem with Koine academically is that many later texts were written in a "Atticized" style, leading to interpretation issues. Either way, having a good understanding of the dialect of the text can compensate, I imagine. (Though a friend of mine who has gone to seminary reported that texts were presented as Koine or Attic, and the texts that were either mixed in style or grammar were never presented as such, leading to lots of confusion amongst the students... which is probably appropriate to an already confused topic.)
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>HardwareGeek:
This was a literature class, not a language class, so I wasn't trying to actually learn Middle English, just understand the text well enough to write an essay or something. It was only my pedantry that forced me to try to read it in the original.
Did this trying to read Chaucer in Middle English, too, although I was "familiar" with the text only in having a Modern English translation on the opposite page.I try to avoid having any translations at hand, but I'm not sure if that's actually important or just me being stubborn.
I found ME words generally fall into one of three catagories:
- Words that are obsolete or have changed meaning significantly in Modern English. These were marked in the text, and could be understood by looking in the glossary or at the translation.
- Words that look close enough to their Modern English equivalents to be understandable without difficulty.
- Words that sound close enough to their Modern English equivalents to be understandable without difficulty when spoken, but not from the written word.
My problem was that my pedantry forced me to read even the familiar words with ME pronunciation, partly (but not only) due to the third category of words. Pronouncing every word in your head makes for very slow reading. I never did get through the whole Canterbury Tales.
Though a friend of mine who has gone to seminary reported that texts were presented as Koine or Attic, and the texts that were either mixed in style or grammar were never presented as such, leading to lots of confusion amongst the students.
Although we learn a bit about the original texts and differences between them, this is basically an introductory Koine Greek class, and we mostly use later, edited, published compilations such as the Textus Receptus or SBL Greek NT.
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It was only my pedantry that forced me to try to read it in the original.
I did much the same thing when I was forced to read Beowulf. I found reading it in OE was much more rewarding than reading the translation.
Pronouncing every word in your head makes for very slow reading. I never did get through the whole Canterbury Tales.
I really enjoy it, and it gets faster as you get better at parsing the sounds. I never got through most of Canterbury Tales in any dialect...
Although we learn a bit about the original texts and differences between them, this is basically an introductory Koine Greek class, and we mostly use later, edited, published compilations such as the Textus Receptus or SBL Greek NT.
I suppose it depends on what purposes you prefer, but I am very picky about letting even scholars of topics do interpretation for me. [See earlier declaration of stubbornness.] I would have trundled through Canterbury Tales in ME even if I had to check the gloss on every other word. Heh.
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I found reading it in OE was much more rewarding than reading the translation.
In a one-semester literature class, we didn't learn enough OE to make heads or tails out of it. The relationship between most Modern English words and ME is pretty apparent; OE is waaay different.
I am very picky about letting even scholars of topics do interpretation for me.
That level of fluency is years of study away for me. This is my fourth (I think) time through the Greek class, and I still don't even have the declensions memorized. (I'm lazy (in some ways; in others, not so much; when I do study, I put way more effort than necessary into the personal glossary we are supposed to compile as we learn new words), and there is no penalty for not learning it, other than just wasting your time.)
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this seems relevant here for some reason:
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In a one-semester literature class, we didn't learn enough OE to make heads or tails out of it. The relationship between most Modern English words and ME is pretty apparent; OE is waaay different.
This is true, and spending time on stumbling through the OE was something of a luxury. When I say "reading" in this case, I don't mean to imply much fluency. I learned as much about OE reading Beowulf as I did about Beowulf (probably more).
That level of fluency is years of study away for me.
Almost certainly the same for me; I spend lots of time checking glosses and sources and trying to piece together some of the linguistic details. My understanding of Greek is more of a collection of philological details and grammatical quirks than fluency. To have a proper discussion in Attic, I'd probably have to stop and look up a word every couple sentences.
This is my fourth (I think) time through the Greek class, and I still don't even have the declensions memorized.
I have a major issue with vocabulary; I gain it easily, but don't retain as much as I'd like. Declensions are pretty easy for me, but remembering what Plato would call a fork... that requires a visit to the dictionary.
(I'm lazy (in some ways; in others, not so much; when I do study, I put way more effort than necessary into the personal glossary we are supposed to compile as we learn new words), and there is no penalty for not learning it, other than just wasting your time.)
I spent most of my HS French classes learning linguistics and trying translations of things into French, which I'd then run by my teacher. Sometimes I wonder if the American education system isn't broken for not encouraging this sort of thing. Sometimes I think it might be insanity on my part.
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this seems relevant ehre for some reason:
Filed away for later reading; this seems pretty awesome. Thanks!
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who can argue with that?
Who can argue with him?
Misogynist? Offensive to tranvestites? A funny translation?
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at com.thedailywtf.what.t.4393(98.java:9)
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this seems relevant here for some reason:
One like isn't enough. The Spaceballs reference alone deserves at least a kilolike!
Lit Brick: Comics About Literature by Jodie Troutman
