5 programming languages marked for death (article)
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I mean, can you code for the XBone or WP with VB?
Yes. WinRT supports VB.NET, so you can write apps for them all with VB.NET
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And F# has this nice quality of it being possible to incorporate it for some small parts of an otherwise C# project.
I've been meaning to learn F# for mostly this reason. It seems to be the only way to run GPGPU code from a C# application (outside of something unofficial that wraps the DirectCompute part of DirectX)
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It seems to be the only way to run GPGPU code from a C# application (outside of something unofficial that wraps the DirectCompute part of DirectX)
P/Invoke doesn't really bite, if I were to run some CUDA stuff again, I'd probably just go with that. You need to mind the overhead obviously, but I don't think F# helps much with that.
Wrappers are okay too, it seems - you can even call your GPU functions using LINQ, however the fuck it works. I probably wouldn't learn it just for that, especially since GPGPU doesn't seem to lend itself to functional programming that much.
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Seeing as I use AMD cards, CUDA is a non-starter for me. The wrapper for LINQ on OpenCL looks interesting.
The main reason I even started looking at it is because there's some massively parallel tasks I'd like to do (each different projects) that is a far better fit for GPGPU than a multithreaded application. I had mucked around with DirectCompute back when it was first introduced, but couldn't stand all the setup that had to be done in C++ at first (and that was back when I was more familiar with C++ than I am now).
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While some things (like PHP, FoxPro, COBOL, and PowerBuilder) really do need to die...I'm wondering why you throw Lisp(+derivatives) and F# on that same heap?
For Lisp, I just find it syntactically annoying. People who code in it would wear out their Shift and Paren keys before anything else. I find it syntactically annoying in the same way that Python annoys me with its whitespace shenanigans, although Python does not have me constantly typing parens so it is way fucking ahead of it. Like, light years ahead of Lisp. I honestly gave up on Lisp when a dear friend told me the old joke, "You know what Lisp stands for right? It is an acronym for "Let's Insert Some Parentheses"". Keep in mind, that was many moons ago, but as soon as he said that it was like I heard it every time I went to type a Paren.
Now, this was long before I started using an IDE, so that may help with at least half of it, but I have not noticed any of the IDEs I have used supporting Lisp. So honestly, the reason I may dislike it could be just sheer ignorance? But every time I hear that name, I think "Let's Insert Some Parentheses".
Are you suggesting that FP-first language design is a completely impractical and futile effort for some reason? And are you implying that Haskell should be killed off, too?
No, because unlike that dictator-in-training that is @blakeyrat, I do not think that my worldview should be canon. ;) Honestly, I do not care what you use. @Arantor uses PHP and loves it, which I assume is some sort of Stockholm Syndrome. ;) There is an OG forum member who programs in Haskell and I presume likes it, so more power to him.
I am no guru. Hell, I will not even say that I am a good little code monkey. I do not do it every day. But if you give me a task, I can get it done.
As for why I would suggest that F# needs to go away, it is simply because I have never known anyone who uses it. For anything. So that was influenced by my specific worldview. Nothing else.
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I can't even view the thread where I defined it any more, since it's in the Lounge and Discourse is a rabid dyspeptic cow of a forum.
All you have to do to get in is like something once in a while.
@Intercourse said:
Now that I think about it, the real question would be why did he not name some of the languages that just refuse to die, but need to? Languages like: Fortran, COBOL, Lisp (and derivatives), F#, PHP, FoxPro (yes, that is still a thing), you could go on and on.
You forgot Ada and Forth.
@Intercourse said:
For Lisp, I just find it syntactically annoying. People who code in it would wear out their Shift and Paren keys before anything else. I find it syntactically annoying in the same way that Python annoys me with its whitespace shenanigans, although Python does not have me constantly typing parens so it is way fucking ahead of it. Like, light years ahead of Lisp. I honestly gave up on Lisp when a dear friend told me the old joke, "You know what Lisp stands for right? It is an acronym for "Let's Insert Some Parentheses"". Keep in mind, that was many moons ago, but as soon as he said that it was like I heard it every time I went to type a Paren.
To be fair, if you count brackets and braces as parens (and Ada does use parens where other languages would use brackets and braces), Lisp code doesn't have any more of them than other languages. And with the right editor you only have to type half of them.
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@Intercourse said:
For Lisp, I just find it syntactically annoying. People who code in it would wear out their Shift and Paren keys before anything else. I honestly gave up on Lisp when a dear friend told me the old joke, "You know what Lisp stands for right? It is an acronym for "Let's Insert Some Parentheses"". Keep in mind, that was many moons ago, but as soon as he said that it was like I heard it every time I went to type a Paren.
I remember a joke about a Star Wars arcade game being written in Lisp, and the last 50+ (I forget the exact number, it was a lot though) lines were just full of close-parantheses
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All you have to do to get in is like something once in a while.
They changed the rules once and kicked me out. They'd just change them again. What's the fucking point?
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They changed the rules once and kicked me out. They'd just change them again. What's the fucking point?
Yeah, they changed the rules just for you.
Oh noes blakeyrat's a leader! Let's put in a rule change!!!!!1!!!one!!!
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It doesn't matter why they did it, the point is the rules can change at any moment, so I don't see any point in chasing the current definition. There's no point in playing a game where the rules can change.
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@Intercourse said:
Now, this was long before I started using an IDE, so that may help with at least half of it, but I have not noticed any of the IDEs I have used supporting Lisp. So honestly, the reason I may dislike it could be just sheer ignorance? But every time I hear that name, I think "Let's Insert Some Parentheses".
I use Counterclockwise (i.e. Eclipse support) for the Clojure I work on at work.
To be fair, if you count brackets and braces as parens (and Ada does use parens where other languages would use brackets and braces), Lisp code doesn't have any more of them than other languages. And with the right editor you only have to type half of them.
Indeed. Clojure also leans on brackets and braces to help keep the parens down to a more-sane level.@Intercourse said:
I find it syntactically annoying in the same way that Python annoys me with its whitespace shenanigans,
Tried simply indenting your Python as if you were writing C? That's the simplest solution to getting Python whitespace off your mind, from what I've heard/read.@Intercourse said:
No, because unlike that dictator-in-training that is @blakeyrat, I do not think that my worldview should be canon
Sanity successfully restored! Now to tackle the mighty Codethulu... ;)You forgot Ada and Forth.
Ada does need to die, but a quiet, painless, obscure death, not the brutality that monstrosities like PHP deserve. It is likely the best of the Pascal-likes left: Pascal itself suffered from a truly impoverished type system and standard library, and VHDL puts the syntactic excesses of Pascal-by-committee into entirely the wrong context for the job.
Forth, on the other hand, can be seen as an embedded Lisp: capable of great elegance in the right hands, but requiring enough of a mindset change to wield that most programmers find it to be a clunker.
They'd just change them again. What's the fucking point?
Didn't the rule change for TL3 come from upstream, anyway? I suspect @PJH would rather have you in the Lounge than out of the Lounge, so I seriously doubt anyone on our end would be playing the moving-goalposts game on you.@PJH: I take it the TL3 criteria will be pretty well frozen in time, no?
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It doesn't matter why they did it, the point is the rules can change at any moment, so I don't see any point in chasing the current definition. There's no point in playing a game where the rules can change.
All I have to say about this is don't get married.
Ada does need to die, but a quiet, painless, obscure death, not the brutality that monstrosities like PHP deserve. It is likely the best of the Pascal-likes left: Pascal itself suffered from a truly impoverished type system and standard library, and VHDL puts the syntactic excesses of Pascal-by-committee into entirely the wrong context for the job.
The ironic thing is that Ada is better for system programming than C because all of the security holes victimized by buffer-overflow exploits that plagued C over the years wouldn't even compile in Ada. Not to mention that all of the bugs caused by implicit type conversions also go away.
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The ironic thing is that Ada is better for system programming than C because all of the security holes victimized by buffer-overflow exploits that plagued C over the years wouldn't even compile in Ada. Not to mention that all of the bugs caused by implicit type conversions also go away.
I'd agree, if only there were a language with the terseness of C and the type-discipline of Ada...perhaps D is what we're after?
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Terseness is overrated. I like being able to read it after you wrote it better.
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@PJH: I take it the TL3 criteria will be pretty well frozen in time, no?
I see no immediate rush to change them our end (upstream is another matter, but they've only changed once since implementation,) and its not as if the current set are secret or particularly onerous to achieve....
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I like being able to read it after you wrote it better.
I find that clean terseness -- which C achieves somewhat, and Python does fairly well at -- to be better for readability than the excessive verbosity in Pascal-esques: my experience with VHDL has been that it's surprisingly hard to read because the significant points drown in a sea of syntactic noise.
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Indeed. Clojure also leans on brackets and braces to help keep the parens down to a more-sane level.
I really hope that works sort of like coins: 6 brackets equal 1 paren, 5 braces replace one bracket.
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It doesn't matter why they did it, the point is the rules can change at any moment, so I don't see any point in chasing the current definition. There's no point in playing a game where the rules can change.
Think about the game being making the users of this forum take 2 seconds of their life to acknowledge your existence and action, and getting a warm, fuzzy feeling from that.
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There's no point in playing a game where the rules can change.
I take it you don't like Fluxx?
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To be fair, if you count brackets and braces as parens (and Ada does use parens where other languages would use brackets and braces), Lisp code doesn't have any more of them than other languages. And with the right editor you only have to type half of them.
As a fan of Lisp code...that's not true. If you did #braces + #parens +2*#semicolons, then you'd get pretty close... but the semicolons is a pretty big part and I suspect that would still fall short because of things like ALGOL-like languages having an order of operations.
(Though, I guess because Lisp code can be compact, that would cut out a lot.)
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As a fan of Lisp code...that's not true. If you did #braces + #parens +2*#semicolons, then you'd get pretty close.
As a fan of Python code......I'm glad that I don't even have to bother with that.
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I'm a fan of Python too... and I've come to decide that I don't like the lack of braces and am mildly an un-fan of the lack of semicolons. I went into it with an open mind (at worst; in some ways, I expected to like it). I find that editors are less able to help you because of the implicitness of the de-indent construct.
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They changed the rules once and kicked me out. They'd just change them again. What's the fucking point?
Haven't we already established you're refusing to enter the Lounge just so you can rant about it?
Filed under: oh wait, we were talking about it in the lounge, sorry blakey
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Haven't we already established you're refusing to enter the Lounge because you like to complain?
FTFY
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@Intercourse said:
Maciejasjmj:
Haven't we already established that you just like to complain?FTFY
FTFY.
