I just found a legitimate use-case for infiniscroll, WTF
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So your use case is fuckwit users?
Isn't that what Discourse caters to? @Arantor's original reasoning is one of the reasons that Atwood gave. First @Matches, now @Arantor. @blakeyrat is next.
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I can't even try_parse your sentence into any sort of grammatical sense.
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I should sleep more. It is a trainwreck. Maybe my argument with @blakeyrat is causing the disjoint?
Not really, I just like imagining his brow furrowing when he gets the notification.
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Parsing error; Syntax error with unknown dangling modifiers and sentence fragments;
In case I haven't been clear:
- I don't mind the idea of infiniscrolling
- I prefer normal paged concept and implementations
- I am vehemently against how Discourse implements infinite scrolling
- I believe that browser functionality shouldn't be broken to make your software work
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I do need to sleep more. It made sense in my head. I was referring to: http://what.thedailywtf.com/t/something-went-wrong-but-what/3583/9?u=intercourse
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that's kind of where I am. I just can't envisage a situation where infinite scrolling wouldn't be broken with respect to forums.
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Essentially, pretend every topic is an IRC channel, and as you type in text, it pushes the data to screen and scrolls up. IRC clients maintain a buffer of data (which is pretty large, all things considered)
Now, pretend those chat messages have the basic template of a user surrounding them.
Now pretend that IRC chat is infiniscroll.
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I can, but it involves the forum not being presented within a web page.
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Isn't that basically what Discourse's UI attempts to do?
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Yes, except it doesn't do anything remotely close to how an IRC application would preserve state, and the amount of shit it pushes around makes things take visible loading time, when it's literally all text.
Images are one thing, but if I have all the avatars of posters cached and there are no images in the topic, topics shouldn't have visible loading times.
The problem is how they are passing around / managing the data. Forums are, and have always been, more persistent chat rooms with slightly different rules to identify users and display a wider array of content.
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Unless you start getting into long-form content. There are places I know where the content of a thread measured in single-digits of posts but tens of thousands of words.
But yes, I see where you're coming from.
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But you can change how paging is displayed, and using optimistic loading make it a nearly seamless experience with pretty good performance and location saving.
topagination man.
Now pretend that IRC chat is infiniscroll.
If forums topics/threads worked like IRC channels it would be an even bigger bag of WTF
tbh, dicsourse would have been a decent forum software if they hadn't had the 100 megaton javascript UI that's trying to fake being an application all the way around. it is over-engineered and under-implemented. A simple small implementation for inlining new posts and better handling to make scrolling functionally smooth in a SANE infiniscroll solution would have worked just fine.
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I didn't say they should work like IRC channels, I said that the concept of a forum is like an IRC chat room. And they are. (But so is just about every other communication service, since conversations work in a more or less linear fashion, with poorly implemented multithreading so things just spill in wherever)
A forum, at it's core should:
- Allow the user to post content to the site
- Display content to the other user (ideally) in real time
- Not break / disfigure user input
IRC does the same thing, in a more limited way. The concept of images doesn't really exist there, and neither does avatars, profiles, badges, etc.
But a forum, at it's fundamental core isn't about those shinies either. That is fluff built on top to make the forum more appealing to use.
Discourse fails at the fundamental core requirement of
"Accept user input, display it as entered to other users"
IT EVEN FAILS AT MAKING A POST TO ITSELF THAT MATCHES THE PREVIEW PANE.
In the preview paneThis is 100% strike text
It looks as intended.
When baked, Fuck You
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That's not infiniscroll's fault, it's literally 100% implementation failure.
Well, under the same argument, communism's not a failure either, it just hasn't been implemented right.
You ignore the possibility that the idea is fundamentally bad.
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That's not even apples and oranges, that's like apples and hand grenades.
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Well, under the same argument, communism's not a failure either, it just hasn't been implemented right.
You seem to be posting this as a reductio ad absurdum, but there are people who seriously believe it.
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You seem to be posting this as a reductio ad absurdum, but there are people who seriously believe it.
I'm well aware of that.
I'm willing to have my mind changed by a working example, that infiniscroll might not be a fundamentally stupid idea. But at this point I think we've seen enough bad implementations (i.e., all of them) that it's probably safe to pencil it in as "fundamentally stupid idea.")
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That's not even apples and oranges, that's like apples and hand grenades.
Really, only on the surface. Both are examples of the concept that if nobody can make something work right, that thing might fundamentally be a bad idea.
In the case of Communism, apologists always say "nobody's done it right yet." Macie* comes right out and says that for infiniscroll.
For Communism, after 100 million people were killed because of it, I'm comfortable with writing it off under the theory that "the right people" don't exist. We're not that way with infiniscroll, but if it weren't fundamentally flawed I think someone would have done it right yet.
I'm not entirely convinced with his IRC analogy. IRC buffers aren't infinite. Yes, I know that's a trivial argument, but his analogy doesn't set well with me, and I haven't figured out yet why.
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I have the Reddit Enhancement Suite installed, which does infiniscroll, but only on the subreddit pages. If you go into a thread, all of the comments (up to the user-specified limit) are loaded at once. It's not bad, and you can turn it off if you want.
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You seem to have missed the second half of my post about Discourse's fundamental failure and focused only on the infiniscroll bit. Infiniscroll is a (new ish) implemented concept and people don't fully know what they want.
You are correct, IRC buffers are not infinite, but that's why I used the analogy. That's fairly accurate to unloading the DOM (IMO). Loading the older posts as you scroll up is similar to if you were receiving IRC chat in reverse order.
It's not a perfect analogy by any means, but I was trying to use it as a comparison to core functionality, such as displaying data, and not mutilating it.
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You seem to have missed the second half of my post about Discourse's fundamental failure and focused only on the infiniscroll bit.
Or perhaps I was only focusing on the infiniscroll bit.
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http://cdn.pjmedia.com/tatler/files/2014/03/hand-grenade.jpg
http://www.calpear.com/_images/content/varieties-detail-sunsprite.gif
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BlakeyrantTM: but first you said apples and oranges, and now you're saying apples and pears. TDEMSYR.
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No, I said it ISN'T apples and oranges, it's strong textstrong textstonstrong textND Grenades
Ok, I'm going to leave the above. Ctrl+B to bold a word, type another word, click back on the original and ctrl+b to unbold it, see that it did it wrong, ctrl+z a couple times.
Now back to my blakeyrant,
I didn't say Apples and Oranges I said it ISN'T apples and oranges, it's Apples and Grenades!
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Whoooosh!
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Communism, Infinni-scrollâ„¢, and PHP: all good in theory, but have 0 feasible good implementations.
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You can't whoosh me, I was countering with a blakeyrant.
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You can't whoosh me, I was countering with a blakeyrant.
Your whole half of the conversation is kind of a whoosh, or possibly a "touched in the head" because you're allowing my analogy to completely derail your half of the argument. I only meant it as a throwaway egregious sliming-by-association of infiniscroll. I expected you to snort or something and continue on, perhaps arguing with my underlying claim that "infiniscroll [might be] an inherently bad idea."
I mean, if you feel I'm unfairly maligning communism, that's one thing. It would be wrong, but it would be a thing. But it's not the same thing as my argument that infiniscroll [might be] an inherently bad idea.
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Can we play "count the logical fallacies" yet?
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It's a slow day at work.
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Fine, but you're keeping me from reading all the other threads!
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You can't whoosh me, I was countering with a blakeyrant.
I counter your blakeyrant, tap two lands for blue mana, roll a d20 for Dexterity check, move three places, check your king and Mornington Crescent.
Filed under: fuck you discourse, if it's good enough to be suggested, it's good enough to be necro'd
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So many shout-outs all at once. I approve.
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If we hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominoes should fall like a house of cards. Checkmate.
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If we hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominoes should fall like a house of cards. Checkmate.
You're a man's man. No, you're a man's man's man.
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It must be some form of Calvinball.
Pretty much. Though Mornington Crescent pretty much nailed that already.