Discourse is not TRWTF…
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@Arantor said in Discourse is not TRWTF…:
This is true, but I also remember the attempts to troll that wildly missed the mark. I dunno. Doesn’t feel authentic to me.
I got confirmation with someone from Discourse he is the real deal
that conflict, that happened almost a decade ago, and many attacks against @codinghorror1 were very disproportionate, if you read all that stuff it's no wonder he overreacted at little
can we slow down on not repeat that flame war?
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@sockpuppet7 said in Discourse is not TRWTF…:
can we slow down on not repeat that flame war?
I think our actual position is that he's welcome enough round here providing he has no access to admin or mod powers.
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@dkf said in Discourse is not TRWTF…:
@sockpuppet7 said in Discourse is not TRWTF…:
can we slow down on not repeat that flame war?
I think our actual position is that he's welcome enough round here providing he has no access to admin or mod powers.
Exactly this. Trying to reshape this community by force from outside provokes the worst possible reaction.
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That was the era before the Garage, and incidentally before our resident fire expert called himself Polygeekery…
Incidentally it was, for the first while at least, not in need of segregating into the , that came a little later.
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@Arantor I know. I was around back then, remember?
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@GOG I don’t remember who was here back then. It was a long time ago, I’ve been to sleep a few times since then.
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@Arantor I looked back to the beginning of the Status thread, and it hit me that it's been almost ten years. Where did that time go?
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@GOG right?
When this place left CS, I was still freelancing, I was living in my hometown (again) and it feels like a lifetime ago.
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@Arantor For me it's the other way around: nothing has changed very much in the meantime, at all, so it feels like yesterday.
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@HardwareGeek Duh.
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@Arantor said in Discourse is not TRWTF…:
When this place left CS
I was young and stupid. Now I'm old and stupid -- but at least there's progress on one front.
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@sockpuppet7 said in Discourse is not TRWTF…:
can we slow down on not repeat that flame war?
The surviving hostages will be released when Jeff admits he's a doodyhead. Tempus fugit.
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@cvi said in Discourse is not TRWTF…:
@Arantor said in Discourse is not TRWTF…:
When this place left CS
I was young and stupid. Now I'm old and stupid -- but at least there's progress on one front.
You've invented a time machine that can progress at the rate of 86,400 seconds per day?
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@izzion said in Discourse is not TRWTF…:
@cvi said in Discourse is not TRWTF…:
@Arantor said in Discourse is not TRWTF…:
When this place left CS
I was young and stupid. Now I'm old and stupid -- but at least there's progress on one front.
You've invented a time machine that can progress at the rate of 86,400 seconds per day?
Yeah. With paper bags.
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@cvi said in Discourse is not TRWTF…:
@Arantor said in Discourse is not TRWTF…:
When this place left CS
I was young and stupid. Now I'm old and stupid -- but at least there's progress on one front.
Um, , I might be in this post.
While I think I'm less stupid than I used to be, in some ways, at least, on the whole, I'd rather be young.
Filed under: thread is
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@HardwareGeek said in Discourse is not TRWTF…:
on the whole, I'd rather be young.
Provided it did not add time to my sentence.
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@Arantor understood. I didn't come to poke a hornet's nest, only to say that our software wasn't a fit here and learning that lesson was painful, but important. Why wasn't it a fit? The Game here was wrong:
One of the most distinguishing practices of the Synanon community was a therapeutic practice commonly referred to as "The Game." The game was a session during which one member would talk about themselves and then endure intense criticism by their peers. During this practice, members were encouraged to be critical of everything, using harsh and profane language. The practice has been charactized as a form of attack therapy. Outside of The Game, members were required to act civilly to each other. While in The Game, members criticized each other, but left as friends and supportive community members. The Game served not only as Synanon's most prominent form of therapy and personal change, but also worked as a way for leaders to collect the opinions of community members. Because there was no hierarchy in The Game, members could freely criticize Synanon's highest leadership, who would then take member concerns into consideration when deciding policy.
I am compelled to close loops; I'm a programmer. To me this was an unclosed loop
(
and I needed it so badly to look like this in my mind
( )
so thank you all for letting me close this loop. Please go with love, empathy, and respect for each other, irrespective of the software you use. There's no other path for long term survival.
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@codinghorror1 tell you what… this version of you is one I would have been more than happy to engage with on the subject of forums, and I suspect this attitude here would have earned you considerably more respect than what happened.
This place loves, more than anything, to play with things that are technical. I suspect Discourse may not ever have been the right fit but we’ll never know now. But approaching it with “we made a thing, what do you think” and doing a vague appeal to the knowledge base here would have probably (hindsight is amazing) gone down better than “we made a thing, you will love it, and if you don’t you’re doing it wrong” which is how it came across.
It felt pretty damn disrespectful - and I should add that… when this happened I was literally a dev for that toxic hellstew stuff. So I took it more personally than maybe I should have.
Do note that we never did go back to one of the classical forums because we’d seen what Discourse was doing and… liked it enough that we wouldn’t go back now.
You’re right though that being respectful is the way to go - it’s getting rarer online - so I’ll end it here with… mistakes were made, but I think everyone is wiser for it in the long run.
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@Arantor said in Discourse is not TRWTF…:
You’re right though that being respectful is the way to go - it’s getting rarer online - so I’ll end it here with… mistakes were made, but I think everyone is wiser for it in the long run.
🤗 This is the mission.
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@Arantor said in Discourse is not TRWTF…:
“we made a thing, you will love it, and if you don’t you’re doing it wrong” which is how it came across.
You had a culture of criticism and debasement ala https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synanon, and that is wrong because it's not survivable either as a community or as a civilization:
Jon Stewart on Crossfire – [04:27..14:14] 14:14
— Alex Felker"we have Civilized Discourse" .. that being said, use whatever software works, but 'works' has to mean treating each other with kindness, decency, and respect. That's the opposite of how it was in the bad old days at TRWTF. It seems that strides have been made here (actively defining positive culture goals, demonstrating those behaviors by active users and leaders, kicking out the most toxic people, etc .. https://blog.codinghorror.com/the-bad-apple-group-poison/) so I'm just covering history now, I hope.
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Don't make me tap the
signlaminated card.
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@codinghorror1 said in Discourse is not TRWTF…:
kicking out the most toxic people
Only one person got kicked out, and he didn't get kicked out for being toxic, but for violating repeated warnings about posting restricted content in multiple inappropriate topics.
The (arguably) most toxic person didn't get kicked out, but left after he was stripped of his admin/mod privileges, which he had abused by kicking out people he personally thought were toxic, according to his own, unannounced rule changes, without consulting Alex. You might even agree that the first people he kicked out were toxic, but he also slapped the "toxic" label on anyone who questioned his behavior, or even asked what the new rules were. All of the "toxic" people were reinstated as soon as Alex got wind of what was going on, the "anti-toxic" person was stripped of his powers, and although AFAIK he isn't banned, we haven't seen him since.
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@codinghorror1 and that's kind of the point - showing up and deciding to implement a new moderation rulebook without consulting with the community or even the administration announcing it is... uh... not exactly respectful. Not sure it's decent either.
What happened is that the community united pretty much as one against Discourse, and some (which you would characterise as the most toxic) left because they felt disrespected by the management.
It's hardly the most charitable interpretation to suggest that 'treating each other with kindness, decency and respect' is to impose those tenets in your own image, rather than what the community as a collective had already arrived at as what they considered appropriate.
I would also note that a number of individuals left after the incidents HardwareGeek is referring to who weren't necessarily toxic in and of themselves but out of reaction to the changes implemented and the perceived toxicity of those changes. It's all about perspective.
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@HardwareGeek said in Discourse is not TRWTF…:
The (arguably) most toxic person didn't get kicked out, but left after he was stripped of his admin/mod privileges, which he had abused by kicking out people he personally thought were toxic, according to his own, unannounced rule changes, without consulting Alex.
Although I wasn't a fan of his, it was for personal reasons. I certainly didn't regard him as toxic in the conventional sense, certainly not compared to many others here past and present. I think it was more the firing that got him to leave, not the stripping of admin/mod privileges.
Although the owner of a business obviously has a right to use his own judgment in firing people, I wondered at the time of The Great Upheaval if lesser consequences would have been sufficient. But this is probably moving into lounge territory.
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@jinpa said in Discourse is not TRWTF…:
@HardwareGeek said in Discourse is not TRWTF…:
The (arguably) most toxic person didn't get kicked out, but left after he was stripped of his admin/mod privileges, which he had abused by kicking out people he personally thought were toxic, according to his own, unannounced rule changes, without consulting Alex.
Although I wasn't a fan of his, it was for personal reasons. I certainly didn't regard him as toxic in the conventional sense, certainly not compared to many others here past and present.
The reason Ben wasn't "toxic in the conventional sense" is because "toxic" doesn't have the connotation of bad. It has the connotation of a particular kind of bad.
I'm super into the Garage/Non-Garage divide though, so this should really continue there.
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@GuyWhoKilledBear said in Discourse is not TRWTF…:
this should really continue there
OMFG I forgot, did anyone give Jeff the direction in how to purchase his own Garage ticket?
Someone should get on that!
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@Tsaukpaetra he’ll only see it as proof positive that this community is toxic and unredeemable.
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@Arantor said in Discourse is not TRWTF…:
he’ll only see it as proof positive that this community is toxic and unredeemable.
I do not see it that way! I hope we have all learned a better way, and that better way was codified into Discourse from day zero: let's be kind to each other.
Have I always lived up to that goal? No, and I'm sorry. But these are the kind of goals that are so good you will spend the rest of your life trying to live up to them. They're worth dying for, better yet, they are worth living for.
We're only here for a brief blip of time and then, statistically speaking, we were barely here at all. Let's try to make the most of that time by loving each other.
and now I'll shut up, I have said my piece.
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@codinghorror1 mate, you haven’t seen the board they’re referring to.
It’s not visible by default, it’s request to access and you will see things that cannot be unseen.
I am certain you will not view its content with the same positive vibe that the rest of the site has.
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@codinghorror1 said in Discourse is not TRWTF…:
They're worth dying for, better yet, they are worth living for.
I'm not sure why, but your words here at this time in this post has caused me to become irrationally incensed and hateful.
I have terminated that thread, but it's a curious thing, don't you think?
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@Tsaukpaetra said in Discourse is not TRWTF…:
@codinghorror1 said in Discourse is not TRWTF…:
They're worth dying for, better yet, they are worth living for.
I'm not sure why, but your words here at this time in this post has caused me to become irrationally incensed and hateful.
I have terminated that thread, but it's a curious thing, don't you think?
Just be kinder, you shitbag. Piety will see us through.
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@Gribnit said in Discourse is not TRWTF…:
@Tsaukpaetra said in Discourse is not TRWTF…:
@codinghorror1 said in Discourse is not TRWTF…:
They're worth dying for, better yet, they are worth living for.
I'm not sure why, but your words here at this time in this post has caused me to become irrationally incensed and hateful.
I have terminated that thread, but it's a curious thing, don't you think?
Just be kinder, you shitbag. Piety will see us through.
Piety and ruthless moderation.
Piety, ruthless moderation and infinite scrolling...I'll come in again.
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@boomzilla said in Discourse is not TRWTF…:
@Gribnit said in Discourse is not TRWTF…:
@Tsaukpaetra said in Discourse is not TRWTF…:
@codinghorror1 said in Discourse is not TRWTF…:
They're worth dying for, better yet, they are worth living for.
I'm not sure why, but your words here at this time in this post has caused me to become irrationally incensed and hateful.
I have terminated that thread, but it's a curious thing, don't you think?
Just be kinder, you shitbag. Piety will see us through.
Piety and ruthless moderation.
Piety, ruthless moderation and infinite scrolling...I'll come in again.
No, stop at two, while you were ahead.
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@HardwareGeek no, that was definitely not part of the Dicksource Way.