Tinder is shit
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@Gąska said in Tinder is shit:
@Rhywden said in Tinder is shit:
I also always wonder about the gals who don't answer a single question (or post a bunch of unintelligible emoticons in the "about me" part). Sometimes even upping the ante by only posting a single picture. Bonus points if there are multiple women in said picture or if only the back of the head is visible. Alternatively: Someone in a mask or half a face against the sun.
Okay, dismissing those is pretty automatic but seriously, what are these people expecting?Think of how much effort on average a girl has to put in he Tinder profile to start getting matches. Those people are 2σ to the left.
Several of them (from what I could make out) were also 2σ to the right.
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@Rhywden said in Tinder is shit:
Several of them (from what I could make out) were also 2σ to the right.
Did you swipe left or right then, and how many sigmas?
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@Groaner said in Tinder is shit:
This is why I treat OLD as supplemental and real-world speed dating/Meetup.com as primary methods of meeting people.
Does speed dating even work? I googled that question a lot and, at least according to grumpy redditors, the answer seems to be "you have a better chance talking to cashiers at grocery stores than through speed dating".
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@Groaner said in Tinder is shit:
andidates must be putting at least 15% of their incomes away for retirement
LOL, Not sure what percentage I'm doing, but I run into this thing known as caps. Unless I want to sock away some post-tax money too... (well. technically I am because of how our matching is done)
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@Gąska said in Tinder is shit:
Think of how much effort on average a girl has to put in he Tinder profile to start getting matches.
Create an account?
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@dcon said in Tinder is shit:
I run into this thing known as caps.
I haven't looked at the numbers, but there's a good chance I exceeded the cap for last year. Maybe even the higher "catch-up" cap for people over 55. I dunno. First time it years I've had both an employer who offers a 401(k) and the extra income to put anything into it.
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@HardwareGeek said in Tinder is shit:
@dcon said in Tinder is shit:
I run into this thing known as caps.
I haven't looked at the numbers, but there's a good chance I exceeded the cap for last year. Maybe even the higher "catch-up" cap for people over 55. I dunno. First time it years I've had both an employer who offers a 401(k) and the extra income to put anything into it.
Oh yeah, I'm including that catch up cap in mine. I maxed right at the end of Nov. But my employer allows putting post-tax money in the 401K - first place I've ever been that allows that.
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@DogsB said in Tinder is shit:
@Groaner said in Tinder is shit:
@DogsB said in Tinder is shit:
Is there a dating app where ‘saving towards 30% deposit’ is a valid common interest?
I encountered a profile months ago which demanded that all candidates must be putting at least 15% of their incomes away for retirement to merit consideration (not in those words, and not as politely expressed).
The funny thing is that while I was three percent too low to make her threshold, I also have this thing called a "hoose" and another thing called a "mort-gauge" or something. In less than 20 years, I will own the land I sit on and only owe property tax and community association dues to live there. That, I would argue, is a far more important step toward financial security, at least compared to saving three percent more if you're still renting, when rent will by far be your biggest monthly expense.
send her to me.
That's also what my dating coach said when I showed her a screenshot of the profile (she likes to use actual screenshots in her blog when writing about what NOT to do).
I don't think I could send her to you in good conscience, though. The way this specimen worded it was "i work finance and bring in six figures, i will never need you," which is not a great way to start off a relationship that's supposed to be long-lasting.
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@Groaner said in Tinder is shit:
@Rhywden said in Tinder is shit:
Also, so much for this popular: "Oh, but women are so communicative!" saying. Twice in a row now have two women contacted me (not vice versa!) and when I replied I always only got single-sentence answers whereas I made sure to always include some tidbits or outright questions (even open ones!) for her to hook into to keep the conversation flowing.
How the fuck do you expect me to get to know you when you don't tell me stuff about yourself? Oh, well, onto the next potential match.
I also always wonder about the gals who don't answer a single question (or post a bunch of unintelligible emoticons in the "about me" part). Sometimes even upping the ante by only posting a single picture. Bonus points if there are multiple women in said picture or if only the back of the head is visible. Alternatively: Someone in a mask or half a face against the sun.
Okay, dismissing those is pretty automatic but seriously, what are these people expecting?
They are expecting you to do all the legwork.
I just found a word on Reddit which describes the type very precisely, in my eyes: "Breadcrumbers".
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@Groaner said in Tinder is shit:
@DogsB said in Tinder is shit:
@Groaner said in Tinder is shit:
@DogsB said in Tinder is shit:
Is there a dating app where ‘saving towards 30% deposit’ is a valid common interest?
I encountered a profile months ago which demanded that all candidates must be putting at least 15% of their incomes away for retirement to merit consideration (not in those words, and not as politely expressed).
The funny thing is that while I was three percent too low to make her threshold, I also have this thing called a "hoose" and another thing called a "mort-gauge" or something. In less than 20 years, I will own the land I sit on and only owe property tax and community association dues to live there. That, I would argue, is a far more important step toward financial security, at least compared to saving three percent more if you're still renting, when rent will by far be your biggest monthly expense.
send her to me.
That's also what my dating coach said when I showed her a screenshot of the profile (she likes to use actual screenshots in her blog when writing about what NOT to do).
I don't think I could send her to you in good conscience, though. The way this specimen worded it was "i work finance and bring in six figures, i will never need you," which is not a great way to start off a relationship that's supposed to be long-lasting.
Okay, she sounds like a wingding. Thank you for not forwarding.
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@Gąska said in Tinder is shit:
@Groaner said in Tinder is shit:
This is why I treat OLD as supplemental and real-world speed dating/Meetup.com as primary methods of meeting people.
Does speed dating even work? I googled that question a lot and, at least according to grumpy redditors, the answer seems to be "you have a better chance talking to cashiers at grocery stores than through speed dating".
A lot depends on which agency. I've had a pretty good experience with CitySwoon, if they're available in your city. The prices are reasonable, and usually you'll get 5-10 minutes each with about 5-10 people. Some agencies have trouble drawing enough attendees for events, or getting an even gender distribution (and I'm told solving these problems isn't exactly easy).
Think about it this way, though: how many people do you have to swipe through to get a response on dating apps? How many to get an actual first date? When you sign up for a speed dating event, and when people actually show up, you've already skipped those two steps. That is huge. You will also probably notice that the quality of the individuals you're meeting is much improved - instead of 23-year-old single moms with 3 kids, most of the people I've run into were successful professionals who were reasonably attractive. On normal dating apps, the share of people I might swipe favorably on is below 50%, but I'd say I'd be willing to date maybe 75+% of the individuals I've met at these events.
As far as asking out cashiers or waitresses, I think that's inappropriate for several reasons, including but not limited to the power dynamics, and there's a lot of context missing from those grumpy redditors to know exactly what sentiment they were trying to communicate. If speed dating doesn't work for them, that's fine, but what does? Are they using completely different methods that yield a much higher conversion rate, or are they just being grumpy? If they are aware of much better methods, why aren't they so busy putting them into action instead of grumpily posting on Reddit?
In my own experience, I got one subsequent date out of about 5 months' of hybrid virtual and in-person events, which is maybe about 10-12 total events. Maybe not a great conversion rate, but it's a hell of a lot better than swiping all day (which will start to fuck with your head if you're not careful). I also much prefer spending $30 plus my own transportation to go to an event than toss $1500 to It's Just Lunch, or $10k+ to a traditional matchmaker. If it were easy to find someone, matchmakers wouldn't charge out the ass, and dating apps would be a solved problem.
These days you really need a hybrid/multifaceted strategy anyway, between a few apps of your choosing and an offline plan of action between real-world speed dating, Meetup, and the like. So I wouldn't put all my eggs into the speed dating basket, but it's a helpful iron to have in the fire, if you will.
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@dcon said in Tinder is shit:
@Groaner said in Tinder is shit:
andidates must be putting at least 15% of their incomes away for retirement
LOL, Not sure what percentage I'm doing, but I run into this thing known as caps. Unless I want to sock away some post-tax money too... (well. technically I am because of how our matching is done)
Post-tax money? I took a business class in college and the professor spent a lot of time beating the "ROTH IRA! ROTH IRA!" drum, so the first chance I had at setting up a retirement fund, I opted for a Roth 401k. Did I do it wrong?
I mean, in my own running of the numbers, the difference between Roth and traditional would amount to about $30k on a $2M+ retirement nest egg, so maybe it's no big deal.
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@Rhywden said in Tinder is shit:
@Groaner said in Tinder is shit:
@Rhywden said in Tinder is shit:
Also, so much for this popular: "Oh, but women are so communicative!" saying. Twice in a row now have two women contacted me (not vice versa!) and when I replied I always only got single-sentence answers whereas I made sure to always include some tidbits or outright questions (even open ones!) for her to hook into to keep the conversation flowing.
How the fuck do you expect me to get to know you when you don't tell me stuff about yourself? Oh, well, onto the next potential match.
I also always wonder about the gals who don't answer a single question (or post a bunch of unintelligible emoticons in the "about me" part). Sometimes even upping the ante by only posting a single picture. Bonus points if there are multiple women in said picture or if only the back of the head is visible. Alternatively: Someone in a mask or half a face against the sun.
Okay, dismissing those is pretty automatic but seriously, what are these people expecting?
They are expecting you to do all the legwork.
I just found a word on Reddit which describes the type very precisely, in my eyes: "Breadcrumbers".
After this last holiday season, I have a new rule in that I do not talk about modern dating and relationships with family (or anyone, for that matter) unless they are familiar with Redpill/PUA/FDS/etc., or at the very least have experienced the dynamics of modern hookup culture. Many of them are still under the impression that all you have to do is ask a girl out to a dance and the rest is history, and not that the well of basic human interactions has been so thoroughly poisoned and corrupted that modern "dating" is at best like hacking your way through a jungle, and at worst like reaching into a basket of venomous snakes trying to find the one that won't bite.
The fact that so much new jargon is needed to describe the situation ought to be indicative that things have changed.
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@Groaner said in Tinder is shit:
there's a lot of context missing from those grumpy redditors to know exactly what sentiment they were trying to communicate.
From what they said, most speed dating events are horribly organized with much more men than women. And of those that are well organized, half of the women are there still just for fun and not actually interested in dating. And of the ones who are, most have unrealistic expectations, and those who dont are usually single for a reason, such as three kids or insufferable personality. And the remaining ones are often forgetful to check the box even if they liked you, and even if they do and you get matched, they never reply to your messages. Basically OLD but IRL.
If speed dating doesn't work for them, that's fine, but what does?
Rules 1 and 2.
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@Gąska said in Tinder is shit:
@Groaner said in Tinder is shit:
there's a lot of context missing from those grumpy redditors to know exactly what sentiment they were trying to communicate.
From what they said, most speed dating events are horribly organized with much more men than women.
This does happen from time to time (and that's not necessarily the organizers' fault as they don't have much control over who signs up).
And of those that are well organized, half of the women are there still just for fun and not actually interested in dating.
This also happens from time to time. I guess paying for the event and wasting everyone else's time is slightly cheaper than paying for a therapist for validation, but who knows.
And of the ones who are, most have unrealistic expectations, and those who dont are usually single for a reason, such as three kids or insufferable personality.
This also happens from time to time. I like to say that dating is the art of finding out why people are single, one person at a time. The ones with unrealistic expectations can feel free to crash into the wall, for the wall is brutal but it is fair.
And the remaining ones are often forgetful to check the box even if they liked you, and even if they do and you get matched, they never reply to your messages. Basically OLD but IRL.
And sometimes, you want to go to the racetrack next weekend, but there's rain so the event gets cancelled. There are no guarantees in life. Given what we all know about modern dating, what exactly were the expectations here? The sell here is being put in front of a half dozen or so individuals who have also paid and taken time out of their day to come to an event to ostensibly meet other singles. The sell is not that you will walk out of the event with a soulmate.
If speed dating doesn't work for them, that's fine, but what does?
Rules 1 and 2.
Be attractive/don't be attractive? What actionable insights! But let's assume for a moment that a hypothetical Average Joe pours all his energy and resources into self-improvement to make himself more "attractive" (whatever that means):
- Now he gets to date people who would not have previously dated him, who are dating him only because of the changes he has made, and would ostensibly stop dating him should any of those changes revert. Great recipe for a life partner who's supposed to stick around through thick and thin.
- Joe here has put in enormous effort and made a few sacrifices. What can he expect in return? Will other parties make equal sacrifices to better serve his needs and wants, or is this just the price of admission and he gets nothing else?
If there's one thing that the dating and relationship subreddits have taught me, it's to stay away from dating and relationship subreddits.
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@Groaner said in Tinder is shit:
The way this specimen worded it was "i work finance and bring in six figures, i will never need you," which is not a great way to start off a relationship that's supposed to be long-lasting.
Eh, not entirely sure how not, as long as you also are bringing in six figures it settles a concern even.
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@Groaner said in Tinder is shit:
And the remaining ones are often forgetful to check the box even if they liked you, and even if they do and you get matched, they never reply to your messages. Basically OLD but IRL.
And sometimes, you want to go to the racetrack next weekend, but there's rain so the event gets cancelled. There are no guarantees in life.
There's that, but there's also getting cancelled more often than not, to the point people are surprised when the event actually happens (I know one organization who did exactly that with a sports event for children. When they finally managed to host the event on 7th try, the attendance was very low compared to sign up list.)
If speed dating doesn't work for them, that's fine, but what does?
Rules 1 and 2.
Be attractive/don't be unattractive? What actionable insights!
Anyway. I was genuinely curious about your experiences with speed dating, as I know nobody else who tried it out, let alone goes there on regular basis. And everything I read about them - not just on Reddit but also elsewhere on the internet - led me to believe that most often they're a waste of time, for exactly the same reasons why dating apps and websites are most often a waste of time.
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@Gribnit said in Tinder is shit:
@Groaner said in Tinder is shit:
The way this specimen worded it was "i work finance and bring in six figures, i will never need you," which is not a great way to start off a relationship that's supposed to be long-lasting.
Eh, not entirely sure how not, as long as you also are bringing in six figures it settles a concern even that you might be dating some repugnant commoner in disguise.
There are much better ways to communicate that concern, though. One of my exes asked what my goals were for the next several years and mentioned that she was hoping to retire by 50. She also didn't ask to see my financials or budget and she spent enough time being fun and friendly and giving me enough reason to want to date her that it was no big deal.
What this lady did is not a good look and makes a horrible first impression. I'm looking for someone with whom to spend the rest of my life, someone I can count on, for better or for worse, for richer or for poorer, etc. If she starts off with "I will never need you," it kinda raises doubts about her ability to make such a commitment.
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@Gąska said in Tinder is shit:
Anyway. I was genuinely curious about your experiences with speed dating, as I know nobody else who tried it out, let alone goes there on regular basis. And everything I read about them - not just on Reddit but also elsewhere on the internet - led me to believe that most often they're a waste of time, for exactly the same reasons why dating apps and websites are most often a waste of time.
Of course. And I gave you the one data point to which I had immediate access. The way I see it is that even if I get no leads out of an event, at least I got to go into the city, meet some people, get some practice, and get some good food.
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@Groaner said in Tinder is shit:
I'm looking for someone with whom to spend the rest of my life
Oh yeah, speaking of the things that changed in modern dating and relationships...
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@Gąska said in Tinder is shit:
@Groaner said in Tinder is shit:
I'm looking for someone with whom to spend the rest of my life
Oh yeah, speaking of the things that changed in modern dating and relationships...
I'm aware. It takes maturity and sacrifice to make a proper marriage vow, but it's the only way that marriage can work, as I see it. If it's not "'til death do us part," but "'til I get bored or someone better comes along." then it's just a matter of time. Why bother getting married if either party can just walk out on a whim?
And I say this as a non-denominational, non-practicing* deist.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cWklW1UnpX4
*I don't need to practice because I got it right the first time.
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@Groaner said in Tinder is shit:
@Gąska said in Tinder is shit:
@Groaner said in Tinder is shit:
I'm looking for someone with whom to spend the rest of my life
Oh yeah, speaking of the things that changed in modern dating and relationships...
I'm aware. It takes maturity and sacrifice to make a proper marriage vow, but it's the only way that marriage can work, as I see it.
Eh. My parents had the most proper marriage you could find in the 90s, they've been through some highs and a whole freaking lot of lows and still kept it together. After 25 years they've still divorced. Everyone in the family agrees it's a good decision. Shit happens, people change, and there's nothing good nor honorable about continuing to live with people who make you miserable. I'd very much rather marry someone who will tell me in the face that she's not happy with me anymore than someone who will hide her true feelings from me in fear of ruining our marriage (which is already dead and buried because she's hiding her true feelings from me). I'd say the former requires a whole lot more maturity than the latter.
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@Groaner also. The kind of people who are serious about "until death do us part" are usually also the kind of people who get offended by a prenup.
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@Gąska said in Tinder is shit:
@Groaner said in Tinder is shit:
@Gąska said in Tinder is shit:
@Groaner said in Tinder is shit:
I'm looking for someone with whom to spend the rest of my life
Oh yeah, speaking of the things that changed in modern dating and relationships...
I'm aware. It takes maturity and sacrifice to make a proper marriage vow, but it's the only way that marriage can work, as I see it.
Eh. My parents had the most proper marriage you could find in the 90s, they've been through some highs and a whole freaking lot of lows and still kept it together. After 25 years they've still divorced. Everyone in the family agrees it's a good decision. Shit happens, people change, and there's nothing good nor honorable about continuing to live with people who make you miserable. I'd very much rather marry someone who will tell me in the face that she's not happy with me anymore than someone who will hide her true feelings from me in fear of ruining our marriage (which is already dead and buried because she's hiding her true feelings from me). I'd say the former requires a whole lot more maturity than the latter.
It's not about suffering through shit. It's about making the effort to fix that shit. Which, sure, doesn't always work. But a lot of people these days don't seem to be willing to make the effort.
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@Gąska said in Tinder is shit:
@Groaner said in Tinder is shit:
@Gąska said in Tinder is shit:
@Groaner said in Tinder is shit:
I'm looking for someone with whom to spend the rest of my life
Oh yeah, speaking of the things that changed in modern dating and relationships...
I'm aware. It takes maturity and sacrifice to make a proper marriage vow, but it's the only way that marriage can work, as I see it.
Eh. My parents had the most proper marriage you could find in the 90s, they've been through some highs and a whole freaking lot of lows and still kept it together. After 25 years they've still divorced. Everyone in the family agrees it's a good decision. Shit happens, people change, and there's nothing good nor honorable about continuing to live with people who make you miserable. I'd very much rather marry someone who will tell me in the face that she's not happy with me anymore than someone who will hide her true feelings from me in fear of ruining our marriage (which is already dead and buried because she's hiding her true feelings from me). I'd say the former requires a whole lot more maturity than the latter.
When I take your implied age into account (and adding some leeway for younger siblings), it sounds like everything worked until the children left the nest.
Sounds like a very good and practical pattern. Definitely more sensible than the "till death"
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@Kamil-Podlesak said in Tinder is shit:
@Gąska said in Tinder is shit:
@Groaner said in Tinder is shit:
@Gąska said in Tinder is shit:
@Groaner said in Tinder is shit:
I'm looking for someone with whom to spend the rest of my life
Oh yeah, speaking of the things that changed in modern dating and relationships...
I'm aware. It takes maturity and sacrifice to make a proper marriage vow, but it's the only way that marriage can work, as I see it.
Eh. My parents had the most proper marriage you could find in the 90s, they've been through some highs and a whole freaking lot of lows and still kept it together. After 25 years they've still divorced. Everyone in the family agrees it's a good decision. Shit happens, people change, and there's nothing good nor honorable about continuing to live with people who make you miserable. I'd very much rather marry someone who will tell me in the face that she's not happy with me anymore than someone who will hide her true feelings from me in fear of ruining our marriage (which is already dead and buried because she's hiding her true feelings from me). I'd say the former requires a whole lot more maturity than the latter.
When I take your implied age into account (and adding some leeway for younger siblings), it sounds like everything worked until the children left the nest.
My sister was 14 then.
Sounds like a very good and practical pattern.
Not if you know the details. It wasn't a "we totally should divorce but let's wait until children grow up" situation. They actually were a good, loving marriage, until they weren't. And no, it wasn't cheating either.
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@Gąska said in Tinder is shit:
@Kamil-Podlesak said in Tinder is shit:
@Gąska said in Tinder is shit:
@Groaner said in Tinder is shit:
@Gąska said in Tinder is shit:
@Groaner said in Tinder is shit:
I'm looking for someone with whom to spend the rest of my life
Oh yeah, speaking of the things that changed in modern dating and relationships...
I'm aware. It takes maturity and sacrifice to make a proper marriage vow, but it's the only way that marriage can work, as I see it.
Eh. My parents had the most proper marriage you could find in the 90s, they've been through some highs and a whole freaking lot of lows and still kept it together. After 25 years they've still divorced. Everyone in the family agrees it's a good decision. Shit happens, people change, and there's nothing good nor honorable about continuing to live with people who make you miserable. I'd very much rather marry someone who will tell me in the face that she's not happy with me anymore than someone who will hide her true feelings from me in fear of ruining our marriage (which is already dead and buried because she's hiding her true feelings from me). I'd say the former requires a whole lot more maturity than the latter.
When I take your implied age into account (and adding some leeway for younger siblings), it sounds like everything worked until the children left the nest.
My sister was 14 then.
Ok, so not really a bulls eye. But still not that bad.
Sounds like a very good and practical pattern.
Not if you know the details. It wasn't a "we totally should divorce but let's wait until children grow up" situation. They actually were a good, loving marriage, until they weren't. And no, it wasn't cheating either.
Yes, I understood that from your first post. The "wait until children grow up" is actually crap, so you have dodged the bullet.
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@Groaner said in Tinder is shit:
This is why I treat OLD as supplemental and real-world speed dating/Meetup.com as primary methods of meeting people.
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I see this one has also encountered the red pill!
Differentiating oneself from the rest of the population is a good thing, no doubt. So is showing awareness of the present state of affairs in the dating world. But griping about the present state of affairs is best done with one's friends (or in forum threads such as these), and not on a platform where one has but seconds to sell strangers on wanting to get to know one.
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: Bad punctuation and bad grammar. Sorry, that's a red flag.
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@Groaner She's fat, isn't she. Chances of a nose ring are also above average.
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@blek as a person of fat, I can say that fat people need sex and love, too. However, nose rings are right out.
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@HardwareGeek I knew the Apostle Paul said, in his second letter to the church at Thessaloniki, "the one who is unwilling to work shall not eat," but TIL Lenin also said that is a necessary principle under socialism. So our anti-work anarcho-communist might be in for an unpleasant surprise.
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@boomzilla the “saggitarius” part really sells it.
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@boomzilla this is good because you know to avoid them before reaching the end of the first sentence
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"It is my belief that there must be something gravely repellent about people who are using dating sites, such that resorting to using a dating site is a personal failure. Finding a partner is easy, all you have to do is go to a Boyfriend Vending Machine™, put in tokens, and out pops a Significant Other. It's got to be a trivial task, right? I mean, it always goes favorably on TV and in movies, and all my friends and acquaintances [that I can think of, while probably injecting confirmation bias] have partners, therefore it must be easy, right?"
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@Groaner said in Tinder is shit:
It is my belief that there must be something gravely repellent about people who are using dating sites, such that resorting to using a dating site is a personal failure.
It kind of is. I believe it is. Not entirely personal. But a failure nonetheless.
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@Applied-Mediocrity said in Tinder is shit:
@Groaner said in Tinder is shit:
It is my belief that there must be something gravely repellent about people who are using dating sites, such that resorting to using a dating site is a personal failure.
It kind of is. I believe it is. Not entirely personal. But a failure nonetheless.
- Why? By what measure?
- What would constitute a "success?"
- Could a randomly selected person have reasonably attained success based on the resources that person had available?
- Are the criteria and metrics for success well-defined, measurable, and can be reduced to process?
- Is failure, by whatever definition, exclusively bad, or are there cases where it might be good?
- If failing to attract a partner is a failure, is it a greater or lesser failure than being with a partner but in an incredibly toxic relationship? Or how about versus a string of short relationships, or being divorced?
- Are failures of this nature like "failing an exam in school," or more akin to "failing to become a billionaire?"
I once worked for a company that gave its customer support staff exactly zero training and had zero policies of that nature, and for some reason, new hires would frequently "fail" to live up to the expectations of management. Except that failure didn't mean much in that context since anyone without mind-reading capabilities would fail by that standard. So I'm curious whether this kind of "failure" is similar.
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@Groaner said in Tinder is shit:
Finding a partner is easy, all you have to do is go to a Boyfriend Vending Machine™, put in tokens, and out pops a Significant Other.
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@Groaner said in Tinder is shit:
@Applied-Mediocrity said in Tinder is shit:
@Groaner said in Tinder is shit:
It is my belief that there must be something gravely repellent about people who are using dating sites, such that resorting to using a dating site is a personal failure.
It kind of is. I believe it is. Not entirely personal. But a failure nonetheless.
- Why? By what measure?
- What would constitute a "success?"
- Could a randomly selected person have reasonably attained success based on the resources that person had available?
- Are the criteria and metrics for success well-defined, measurable, and can be reduced to process?
- Is failure, by whatever definition, exclusively bad, or are there cases where it might be good?
- If failing to attract a partner is a failure, is it a greater or lesser failure than being with a partner but in an incredibly toxic relationship? Or how about versus a string of short relationships, or being divorced?
- Are failures of this nature like "failing an exam in school," or more akin to "failing to become a billionaire?"
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It sharply reduces introspection (since it's no more a requirement). Instead lists of instant no-goes are written (or enumerated without writing down, thus applied inconsistently) and filters used. People hunt for specific kinds of unicorns, which, I say it with some certainty, simply do not exist. There is a very small chance of a happily ever after, almost negligible, to begin with. Eventually they are likely to settle for a compromise that may or may not blow up in their faces (pun not intended), because ordering items by their relative importance is very, very difficult. This is bound to happen anyway. However, online behavior of most people is simply abhorrent. This is coupled with non-verbal cues not present, such as eye movement, nervous ticks to indicate discomfort or anxiousness, disinterest (or the opposite - passion). This has a tendency to assume things without proper context and not display any effort when the one-sided conclusions are disagreeable.
The larger the pool, the more filters need be applied to reduce candidates worth investigating to a manageable amount. Then, if dating sites do not magically result in favorable outcome despite the gamble of odds, it may lead to wrong conclusions about the state of relationships people have [these days] or assume without proper introspection some bad qualities that they do not necessarily possess (I'm ugly and/or stupid, all women are gold-digging bitches, all men want to date supermodels).
It doesn't imply that they are capable of changing or improving, or that understanding and patience, while in short supply, holds a promise of success. The measure is my personal preference. -
Success is open-ended, floating, continuous effort of flawed persons recognizing faults and, if at all possible, working around them. It is unavoidable. Most people are terrible.
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There are no guarantees regardless of the process used.
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No. But failure is terminal.
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Not necessarily. One example, I believe, would be yours truly.
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It is a lesser failure than all others mentioned.
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The billionaire one. Remaining without a partner should be acceptable. I'd recommend - but not demand - that reasons for doing so are accounted for.
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@topspin said in Tinder is shit:
@Groaner said in Tinder is shit:
Finding a partner is easy, all you have to do is go to a Boyfriend Vending Machine™, put in tokens, and out pops a Significant Other.
They will definitely take your money. Whether that results in you getting a boyfriend is another question.
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@Gąska said in Tinder is shit:
@Groaner also. The kind of people who are serious about "until death do us part" are usually also the kind of people who get offended by a prenup.
This is only logical. If you're committing to staying together until death separates you, then what's the point of having something that pries open the door, however slightly, to not staying together until you or your spouse's demise?
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@Groaner said in Tinder is shit:
I'm looking for someone with whom to spend the rest of my life, someone I can count on, for better or for worse, for richer or for poorer, etc.
Also, just popping in to remind you that you'll likely find the highest concentration of this type of woman in a traditionally-practicing church. Or a Bible college. Or by volunteering/working at a Bible camp. ‡ :)
@Groaner said in Tinder is shit:
And I say this as a non-denominational, non-practicing* deist.
*I don't need to practice because I got it right the first time.
And hey, maybe by attending a church you'll also learn that you're wrong on this. :)
‡ I can offer some recommendations.
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@djls45 said in Tinder is shit:
@Gąska said in Tinder is shit:
@Groaner also. The kind of people who are serious about "until death do us part" are usually also the kind of people who get offended by a prenup.
This is only logical. If you're committing to staying together until death separates you, then what's the point of having something that pries open the door, however slightly, to not staying together until you or your spouse's demise?
It's like life insurance. Nobody wants to die (barring a few exceptions). People who buy life insurance don't plan to die. They don't buy it because they're likely to die. It's just that it may happen, for a variety of reasons over the course of your life, and when it happens it will really suck for those they leave behind. But the insurance payout will help them go through it a whole lot easier.
As I mentioned previously, shit happens. And I have first-hand experience (well, first-row view to the events) with marriage-breaking shit happening out of the blue. My parents had a divorce quite a few years ago already, but their shared property - basically all their accumulated capital throughout life - is currently in a state of limbo where they can't agree how to split it and it costs too much to get lawyers involved, so they didn't split it so neither can do anything with it. So it just sits there unused, only generating costs for both. And it doesn't look like things are going to change anytime soon. Without my software developer salary to help them and my siblings every so often, I don't know how any of us would make it.
I really really really hope my own (potential future) marriage doesn't fall apart, but what if it does? That's what prenup is for. In the best case, it doesn't matter whatsoever because it really was death that did us part. In the worst case, we saved ourselves tens of thousands of dollars and a whole lot of nerves. That's why prenups are great.
But you need someone who doesn't freak out at a mere suggestion that bad things sometimes happen. Someone who understands that having a plan B doesn't mean I won't try my hardest to make the plan A succeed. Preferably someone who had to deal with the aftermath of an attempted murder too. I mean, I don't wish for anyone to die or almost die, but it's good for a relationship to have a shared reference point of what "the worst" actually entails.
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@Groaner said in Tinder is shit:
- Why? By what measure?
My guess is one of three things. One of her potential goals in dating is "Find the best man I possibly can, and then get married to him." This kind of person would consider themself as having failed so far in attracting a spouse through traditional means, and sees a dating website as a lower percentage shot for most people. (Some of this is cultural bias, and some is recognition that most people on most dating websites aren't actively looking to get married.) But she has to do it because she exhausted her other options.
Another potential option is "My goal in life is to be pretty and beautiful and attractive and to have men falling all over me. Since they're not, I'm here."
The third option, and probably the most likely, is that she didn't want to answer the question because she's too shy/too vain to give a real answer. You know how on a job interview, people say their biggest flaw is that they work too hard? This is probably that.
- What would constitute a "success?"
Everyone who's dating ideally has one clear purpose in mind when they do so.
For some people, it's "I want to find a spouse." Others want a one night stand that they'll never speak to again. An important part of figuring out whether you should go on a date with someone is making sure they have compatible goals with you. (If she's the spouse-oriented girl from the first example, she should be dating a spouse-oriented guy. If her goal is to have men falling all over her, maybe a guy who's trying to show up to the party with the most attractive girl is more her speed.
- Could a randomly selected person have reasonably attained success based on the resources that person had available?
Sure. It's a lot of goal setting and clear thinking that most people aren't willing to do, though.
- Are the criteria and metrics for success well-defined, measurable, and can be reduced to process?
To the extent that the person is goal oriented and a clear thinker, their metrics for success are well defined and measurable. To the extent that they're not, their metrics are not.
It can't be reduced to process because the prospective partner's goal orientation and clear thinking gets a vote too.
- Is failure, by whatever definition, exclusively bad, or are there cases where it might be good?
It's exclusively bad. But see the next answer.
- If failing to attract a partner is a failure, is it a greater or lesser failure than being with a partner but in an incredibly toxic relationship? Or how about versus a string of short relationships, or being divorced?
As you're alluding to, some things are famously Worse Than Failure. If you roll a 1 on The Cosmic D20 Of Life, somebody ends up dead. (Maybe you get the girl pregnant and need to get an abortion. Maybe you accidentally go on a date with a serial killer. Et cetera.)
There's various gradiatons of Worse Than Failure in between "can't find a partner" and "somebody dies."
- Are failures of this nature like "failing an exam in school," or more akin to "failing to become a billionaire?"
I might not be understanding this analogy. I see the billionaire thing as a long term life goal that some people have. Failing at your purpose in life is worse than the minor setback of failing a test in school. The first girl from all the way up at the beginning of the post (the one who's looking for a spouse) probably feels closer to "fail at life goal" than "minor setback."
TLDR: Decide what you want to get our of a relationship before you ask the girl out. Make sure that she wants the same thing as you from the relationship by very early in the relationship.
Also, most importantly, I had the opportunity to make a joke about Worse Than Failure and I fucking took it.
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@Applied-Mediocrity said in Tinder is shit:
@Groaner said in Tinder is shit:
@Applied-Mediocrity said in Tinder is shit:
@Groaner said in Tinder is shit:
It is my belief that there must be something gravely repellent about people who are using dating sites, such that resorting to using a dating site is a personal failure.
It kind of is. I believe it is. Not entirely personal. But a failure nonetheless.
- Why? By what measure?
- What would constitute a "success?"
- Could a randomly selected person have reasonably attained success based on the resources that person had available?
- Are the criteria and metrics for success well-defined, measurable, and can be reduced to process?
- Is failure, by whatever definition, exclusively bad, or are there cases where it might be good?
- If failing to attract a partner is a failure, is it a greater or lesser failure than being with a partner but in an incredibly toxic relationship? Or how about versus a string of short relationships, or being divorced?
- Are failures of this nature like "failing an exam in school," or more akin to "failing to become a billionaire?"
- It sharply reduces introspection (since it's no more a requirement). Instead lists of instant no-goes are written (or enumerated without writing down, thus applied inconsistently) and filters used. People hunt for specific kinds of unicorns, which, I say it with some certainty, simply do not exist. There is a very small chance of a happily ever after, almost negligible, to begin with. Eventually they are likely to settle for a compromise that may or may not blow up in their faces (pun not intended), because ordering items by their relative importance is very, very difficult. This is bound to happen anyway. However, online behavior of most people is simply abhorrent. This is coupled with non-verbal cues not present, such as eye movement, nervous ticks to indicate discomfort or anxiousness, disinterest (or the opposite - passion). This has a tendency to assume things without proper context and not display any effort when the one-sided conclusions are disagreeable.
The larger the pool, the more filters need be applied to reduce candidates worth investigating to a manageable amount. Then, if dating sites do not magically result in favorable outcome despite the gamble of odds, it may lead to wrong conclusions about the state of relationships people have [these days] or assume without proper introspection some bad qualities that they do not necessarily possess (I'm ugly and/or stupid, all women are gold-digging bitches, all men want to date supermodels).
It doesn't imply that they are capable of changing or improving, or that understanding and patience, while in short supply, holds a promise of success. The measure is my personal preference.
My takeaway from this is that modern dating sucks (and you're not wrong). But I'm not seeing how there's a connection to failure aside from having impossibly high standards and suffering the natural consequences of those standards.
- Success is open-ended, floating, continuous effort of flawed persons recognizing faults and, if at all possible, working around them. It is unavoidable. Most people are terrible.
Do you think there comes a point where having to deal with those faults and flaws is a lesser pain point than being lonely? I mean, living in this world means having to deal with faults and flaws on a regular basis, such is the human experience.
- There are no guarantees regardless of the process used.
If there isn't a reliable path to success, I'm not sure it's fair to call lack of success a failure.
- No. But failure is terminal.
What do you mean by that? That once failure sets in, no further attempts are made, or that failure is not assured until one takes one's last breath?
- Not necessarily. One example, I believe, would be yours truly.
As long as you're at peace with it.
- It is a lesser failure than all others mentioned.
Ok.
- The billionaire one. Remaining without a partner should be acceptable. I'd recommend - but not demand - that reasons for doing so are accounted for.
Fair enough. It may disappoint you, though, that many people do not have that kind of agency/self-mastery or accountability, that they float through life like a jellyfish at the whims of ocean currents. So I'm not sure you're going to be able to get a satisfactory justification out of everyone. This is one thing that has taken me a while to learn.
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@djls45 said in Tinder is shit:
@Groaner said in Tinder is shit:
I'm looking for someone with whom to spend the rest of my life, someone I can count on, for better or for worse, for richer or for poorer, etc.
Also, just popping in to remind you that you'll likely find the highest concentration of this type of woman in a traditionally-practicing church. Or a Bible college. Or by volunteering/working at a Bible camp. ‡ :)
I am aware of this and have become more open to it as I've gotten older. I still have some reservations about it, though:
- Ever read the introduction to A Brief History of Time, in particular the part where Hawking mentions that his publisher told him that every equation he puts in the book will cut the book's audience in half? Each time I see certain buzzwords or key phrases on a dating site profile, e.g. "You must have a personal relationship with our Lord Jesus", "I seek a God-fearing family-oriented man", "Looking for someone who shares my Christian faith", etc. I reckon that my chances of getting any tail before the next Ice Age are cut in half.
This may be borne of personal prejudice, but when they say that, such is the message that's received. And I don't want that. I want a deeply passionate relationship, and since I am a firm believer in monogamy*, I would like to have a reasonable expectation of being able to bang said partner frequently, since said partner is going to be the only one who gets banging from me. I want us to be able to enjoy all that without any guilt coming from a Being in the Sky (who apparently frowns on His creation for enjoying something that He made them able to enjoy), and free from any power struggles, so none of that "one penny in the jar before marriage, two pennies out after marriage" bullshit either. Men and women Doing the Deed™ is kind of the raison d'être of even getting into a relationship. And while I am on the fence about $500,000 Screaming Poopers (I even have a couple names picked out for prospective $500,000 Screaming Poopers), it would be selfish and immoral to bring them into this world just to get a thumbs-up from the Being in the Sky for myself and my partner to engage in carnal pleasures.
- The redpill guys say that the churchgoers are just as capable of branch-swinging as the non-churchgoers. I'm not quite that cynical, as I can appreciate that one being conscientious enough to attend church (even if it boils down to virtue-signaling) is perhaps at least making an effort to be a good person. At the same time, I find it a bit troubling that some people might want to engage in a certain activity if it makes them perceived as good/moral/righteous people, since one would probably want to steer clear of the virtue signalers. If someone is a good person, it should be evident regardless of any ritual social behaviors. Also, there are more secular-oriented social groups that offer something similar.
@Groaner said in Tinder is shit:
And I say this as a non-denominational, non-practicing* deist.
*I don't need to practice because I got it right the first time.
And hey, maybe by attending a church you'll also learn that you're wrong on this. :)
‡ I can offer some recommendations.
I am open to that possibility. Don't get me wrong, that certain bearded guy who lived a couple millenia ago with all those teachings about tolerance, not casting stones, turning the other cheek, etc. does seem like a pretty chill guy, and I don't have any beefs with him off the top of my head.
I do, however, take umbrage with his daddy, who punishes thoughtcrime, demands loyalty, and has no problem pettily punishing the smallest of offenses. Most literary works cannot help but capture the zeitgeist of when they were written/recorded, and as I see it, there is an abundance of Bronze Age thinking and worldbuilding in that certain Good Book. Things get even worse when many of the ideas presented therein are subjected to scrutiny. Hitchens, for example, spoke of being judged at the pearly gates by St. Peter, and when prompted about his lack of faith, he responded (paraphrasing), "What, you would have me be a hypocrite? You did not give me enough evidence to be able to commit to a conclusion on that matter with any degree of confidence." It's kind of disappointing that a Creator would get so upset about giving His creation logic and reason and His creation then putting those skills to use in lieu of blind fealty.
But, I digress. If I'm going to add religion to my life, it's going to have to be of the sort that recognizes that other religions (some of which might also make claims about being the One True Religion) exist. Or, one that pragmatically extracts the good parts from Bronze Age texts and applies them practically to a world where we're on the cusp of being able to make a steak without killing a cow, where we've seen light emitted billions of years in the past, and where people can bang for reasons in addition to procreation.
As it happens, I am kind of a member of an atheist "church." And, we have occasionally ended up having meetings at a UU church, which is probably the closest denomination that fits my worldview. Maybe that's something I'll consider when the area I live in goes out of lockdown mode.
*Outside of certain tenant/roommate situations
