Javascript semicolon flamewar
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@Mason Wheeler said:
I saw this and sat there in amazement for a few brief moments
Thank you. People are often amazed by me. I guess I'm just so used to being brilliant that it doesn't surprise me any more, but I'm more than happy to put on a show for the groundlings. Anyway, you're welcome.
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@morbiuswilters said:
@nonpartisan said:
I would recommend a reading comprehension course for you. I barely mentioned the desktop at all; the closest I got was mentioning that the version I have installed is Ubuntu 11.04. I didn't express an opinion except to say that I've only had one problem with it with respect to wireless connectivity. Regardless, everything that I discussed in any depth had to do with the CLI and CLI-based utilities. I have neither agreed nor disagreed with your position.@morbiuswilters said:Tell me where in this thread I ever said that the Linux desktop was going to beat Windows. Tell me where I ever said that the tools I use under Linux are GUI tools that are superior to Windows.
You just argued for several pages that the Linux desktop (or open source desktop, which is basically the same thing) isn't shit. And now you're agreeing with me, too?
- Linux kernel (actually pretty good)
How do you reconcile that with:In a previous posting . . . (my emphasis):@morbiuswilters said:
You don't seem to be able to keep track of your inconsistencies. So which is it? Do you spend a lot of time troubleshooting the kernel, which means it must be a piece of shit, or is the kernel pretty good?@morbiuswilters said:Also, it doesn't change the fact that running Linux means spending lots of time troubleshooting problems in the kernel
(I'm aware that people would argue for other things like Postgres/Perl/Ruby/Python/nginx/Postfix/etc.. but those aren't quite as popular.)
They may not be popular, but popularity doesn't dictate whether it's quality software or not. Windows 95 was popular. It was shit, but it was popular. @morbiuswilters said:So Open Sores can produce good software
Excellent! Glad to see that you have learned! Another individual educated in the benefits of FOSS! Tomorrow there will be a spelling test . . . it's "S-O-U-R-C-E". You got close though. Good job trying!
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@nonpartisan said:
I barely mentioned the desktop at all
So, to reiterate: you agree with me.
@nonpartisan said:
How do you reconcile that with:
In a previous posting . . . (my emphasis):@morbiuswilters said:
You don't seem to be able to keep track of your inconsistencies. So which is it? Do you spend a lot of time troubleshooting the kernel, which means it must be a piece of shit, or is the kernel pretty good?Also, it doesn't change the fact that running Linux means spending lots of time troubleshooting problems in the kernel
I'm not sure why those statements are contradictory. For an open source project the kernel is pretty good but that doesn't mean there aren't times when you have to troubleshoot things, usually obscure settings or screwy drivers. It can get especially unpleasant to use with modern desktop hardware.
@nonpartisan said:
@morbiuswilters said:
(I'm aware that people would argue for other things like Postgres/Perl/Ruby/Python/nginx/Postfix/etc.. but those aren't quite as popular.)
They may not be popular, but popularity doesn't dictate whether it's quality software or not.Good job selectively quoting. I was listing the successful Open Sores projects. Regardless, I added the parenthetical to keep some moron from piping in with some project I didn't list.
@nonpartisan said:
Windows 95 was popular. It was shit, but it was popular.
Bullshit. Windows 95 was the best desktop OS of its era (unless you're counting NT, but that's debatable).
@nonpartisan said:
Another individual educated in the benefits of FOSS!
I never said that FOSS was entirely shit; that straw man came from your puny, crack-addled brain. However, FOSS rarely ever produces anything good. That's what started this entire fucking thread; some Open Sores Javascript library that relies on automatic semicolon insertion. If you're willing to invest a lot of time into getting it to work correctly, FOSS can make a good server or embedded platform. It can't even produce a decent desktop OS. I guess if you consider mostly-shitty software a "benefit", but I don't have standards nearly as low as you (except when it comes to your ex-wife..)
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@morbiuswilters said:
So, to reiterate: you agree with me.
Fine. I'll be specific: I don't have an opinion because I use the CLI. So I neither agree nor disagree.@morbiuswilters said:I'm not sure why those statements are contradictory. For an open source project the kernel is pretty good but that doesn't mean there aren't times when you have to troubleshoot things, usually obscure settings or screwy drivers. It can get especially unpleasant to use with modern desktop hardware.
Yeah, having devices work automatically in the OS. God, I really hate that!@morbiuswilters said:Good job selectively quoting. I was listing the successful Open Sores projects. Regardless, I added the parenthetical to keep some moron from piping in with some project I didn't list
I had no problem with the main list (except reconciling your two opinions about the kernel), so I didn't quote it. I was just emphasizing that just because a project isn't popular doesn't mean that it doesn't have quality behind it.@morbiuswilters said:Bullshit. Windows 95 was the best desktop OS of its era (unless you're counting NT, but that's debatable).
Wow. That was the best desktop OS at the time? Very sad. USB issues, piss-poor password/profile handling, still required certain settings to be in CONFIG.SYS, etc.@morbiuswilters said:I never said that FOSS was entirely shit; that straw man came from your puny, crack-addled brain.
Let's take a journey into history to yesterday, April 17, around 1840 PDT . . . (-- ripple effect --)From a previous posting . . .@morbiuswilters said:
(-- end ripple effect --)I don't think you've convinced anyone that FOSS isn't 99.99% garbage
Who has the crack-addled brain? Oh, you're right, I guess technically you did not say it was entirely shit. Just as much as I didn't say that Windows 95 was entirely shit.
Really, quit while you're behind. Save some of that face that, well . . . it really isn't worth saving, but try it anyway.
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@morbiuswilters said:
I'm not sure why those statements are contradictory.
"spending lots of time" contradicts "there are times", because "there are times" means "sometimes" which clearly contradicts "spending lots of time".
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@cmccormick said:
How does Wil feel about automatic semicolon insertion in Javascript?While we're recommending random geek sitcoms, see The Guild. The last episode has a good cameo from Stan Lee, and Wil has a major role. If you're wondering 'Wil who', you probably wouldn't enjoy it.
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@Mason Wheeler said:
It sucks. It's bug-ridden and resource-hogging and full of security holes,
Nice strawman you've got there. Meanwhile, on my computer, my software works just fine. It isn't perfect, but it is far from the bug-ridden mess that your claim it is.@Mason Wheeler said:
and people keep making the same mistakes over and over and over again. And why is that? Because they aren't able to learn to do it right.
And yet, open source software is just as shitty (or worse) than the evill closed-spurce software and has plenty of bugs and security flaws. Your "best pro-Open Source argument" is nothing but the same bullshit that all the Linux fanboys like to spew on places like Slashdot, which boils down to -- every time a security hole is patched in [any open source program] it is proof that open source is wonderful and superior, and every time a security hole is patched in [any closed-source program] it is proof that closed-souce is evil and inferior.
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@morbiuswilters said:
To the other, non-retarded people reading this thread: I'd just like to point out that I've given multiple examples of shitty FOSS on multiple occasions. And every single time it's been ignored by these idiots as they plow ahead with their "The Linux desktop is totally gonna pwn Windows" nonsense. Let the record show that I tried to teach the ignorant, that I tried to bring light to the darkness, but ultimately the inferior-minded refuse to accept the help of their betters.
Straw men like this just devalue your argument. Anyways, you should totally argue about something where you might convince someone. Like, RON PAUL, or religion.
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@Mason Wheeler said:
@morbiuswilters said:
The entire point of this site is to call out shitty software;
No, it's not. It's to call out horrible code. (And occasionally details of the working environments that produce such, but that's not the point here.) Do you have a sample or three from Linux (or other open-source projects) you can point to?
Shouldn't be too hard to find if they're all as terrible as you say. The code's right there for anyone to see; hearing you talk, you should practically be able to throw a dart at the codebase and have it land right in the middle of a big, stinking pile of WTFery. So what'cha got for us?
That's trivial - just grep for "goto" in the source code for the linux kernel and observe all the various transgressions against good software design. I can't believe this piece of shit even compiles! Some parts of it are even written in assembly! WTF!? Who writes in assembly in this day and age? Are these people still counting how many cycles a function takes, like it's 1969? Even worse than that - it's written in C! Not C++ - straight C! That's an obvious sign of mental deficiency, everybody knows OOP-oriented programming languages make writing software much easier.
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@Mo6eB said:
Even worse than that - it's written in C! Not C++ - straight C! That's an obvious sign of mental deficiency, everybody knows OOP-oriented programming languages make writing software much easier.
You were doing pretty well until you got here. Too obvious.
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@Mo6eB said:
That's trivial - just grep for "goto" in the source code for the linux kernel and observe all the various transgressions against good software design.
Obvious troll is obvious.
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@morbiuswilters said:
@nonpartisan said:
Windows 95 was popular. It was shit, but it was popular.
Bullshit. Windows 95 was the best desktop OS of its era (unless you're counting NT, but that's debatable).
You can take my MacOS 7.5 when you pry it from my COLD, DEAD, FINGERS!
... I will admit that Windows 95 was technically superior. But 7.5 was far, far superior when it comes to the things that matter: productivity and usability.
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@dhromed said:
@morbiuswilters said:
I'm not sure why those statements are contradictory.
"spending lots of time" contradicts "there are times", because "there are times" means "sometimes" which clearly contradicts "spending lots of time".
"Lots of time" can either be many individual times or a few long-lasting times. The point is that the kernel (especially device drives) can be a real bitch at times, like in that story about the i915 driver and kernel framebuffer I related awhile back.
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@blakeyrat said:
You can take my MacOS 7.5 when you pry it from my COLD, DEAD, FINGERS!
Really, you can keep. Nobody's trying to take your MacOS 7.5.
@blakeyrat said:
... I will admit that Windows 95 was technically superior. But 7.5 was far, far superior when it comes to the things that matter: productivity and usability.
I don't remember if I've used 7.5 or not. I did use 8 and 9 and found them to be extremely painful, but this was several years after they'd become obsolete.
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@boomzilla said:
Straw men like this just devalue your argument.
Where is the straw man?
@boomzilla said:
Anyways, you should totally argue about something where you might convince someone.
I'm not trying to convince them; I realized right off the bat that nonpartisan and Mason Wheeler are soft-skulled fanatics who can't be swayed. I just enjoy mocking them.
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@Mo6eB said:
@Mason Wheeler said:
@morbiuswilters said:
The entire point of this site is to call out shitty software;
No, it's not. It's to call out horrible code. (And occasionally details of the working environments that produce such, but that's not the point here.) Do you have a sample or three from Linux (or other open-source projects) you can point to?
Shouldn't be too hard to find if they're all as terrible as you say. The code's right there for anyone to see; hearing you talk, you should practically be able to throw a dart at the codebase and have it land right in the middle of a big, stinking pile of WTFery. So what'cha got for us?
That's trivial - just grep for "goto" in the source code for the linux kernel and observe all the various transgressions against good software design. I can't believe this piece of shit even compiles! Some parts of it are even written in assembly! WTF!? Who writes in assembly in this day and age? Are these people still counting how many cycles a function takes, like it's 1969? Even worse than that - it's written in C! Not C++ - straight C! That's an obvious sign of mental deficiency, everybody knows OOP-oriented programming languages make writing software much easier.
Retard cleanup in Aisle 3!
Seriously, though, the adults are talking. Isn't there an argument over node.js at Hacker News you should be participating in?
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@morbiuswilters said:
@blakeyrat said:
... I will admit that Windows 95 was technically superior. But 7.5 was far, far superior when it comes to the things that matter: productivity and usability.
I don't remember if I've used 7.5 or not. I did use 8 and 9 and found them to be extremely painful, but this was several years after they'd become obsolete.
Yeah, well:
1) We're talking about Windows 95-equivalents, which is System 7.5 and 7.6 more-or-less (the release dates don't line up exactly but eh.)
2) You use Linux so what the hell do you know.Apple had their own "Windows 95 moment" when System 7.0 came out, but that was 1991, well before Windows 95. So I guess you could roughly say System 7.0 corresponds to Windows 95, in a "company stage of development" sense, but eh.
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@morbiuswilters said:
Where is the straw man?
I was referring mainly to this:
@morbiuswilters said:
And every single time it's been ignored by these idiots as they plow ahead with their "The Linux desktop is totally gonna pwn Windows" nonsense.
I wasn't getting that from this thread, except where you were accusing others about it.
The FOSS vs Microsoft thing was tiresome, too, in large part due to the category error involved with it. Mu.
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@morbiuswilters said:
@Mo6eB said:
That's trivial - just grep for "goto" in the source code for the linux kernel and observe all the various transgressions against good software design. I can't believe this piece of shit even compiles! Some parts of it are even written in assembly! WTF!? Who writes in assembly in this day and age? Are these people still counting how many cycles a function takes, like it's 1969? Even worse than that - it's written in C! Not C++ - straight C! That's an obvious sign of mental deficiency, everybody knows OOP-oriented programming languages make writing software much easier.
Retard cleanup in Aisle 3!
Seriously, though, the adults are talking. Isn't there an argument over node.js at Hacker News you should be participating in?
Huh. And here I always assumed that trolls could recognize their fellow trolls. Apparently not.
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@El_Heffe said:
...And yet, open source software is just as shitty (or worse) than the evill closed-spurce software and has plenty of bugs and security flaws. Your "best pro-Open Source argument" is nothing but the same bullshit that all the Linux fanboys like to spew on places like Slashdot, which boils down to -- every time a security hole is patched in [any open source program] it is proof that open source is wonderful and superior, and every time a security hole is patched in [any closed-source program] it is proof that closed-souce is evil and inferior.
I agree that that is not a good argument. And, open source softwares can be pretty bad; closed source softwares can also be pretty bad. But open source softwares aren't always worse; sometimes they are better. It depend which software. The difference is that open source softwares can be improved later on; so, if a lot of people use it perhaps they can fix it faster. And if someone doesn't like a few things, they can make a copy with their own modifications. But in general yes any software can have bad software, open, close, it doesn't matter. They are all bad; you are correct about that.And, Windows is more messed up than Linux (or any other UNIX system, including prorietary systems); I am a programmer too and I can tell.
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@boomzilla said:
I wasn't getting that from this thread, except where you were accusing others about it.
Fair enough, I was engaging in hyperbole there. My main point was that Linux is a crappy desktop OS.
@boomzilla said:
The FOSS vs Microsoft thing was tiresome, too, in large part due to the category error involved with it.
Also fair, although the argument did start as FOSS vs. Microsoft. But when people have this silly little argument it's almost always FOSS vs. Microsoft, not FOSS vs. System G (I'd link it but apparently they pulled the page after it appeared here..) However, I do think I was using an incorrect metric; I still think that 99.99% of FOSS is shit whereas only 90% of closed source is, but that's not really relevant. I don't care about comparing the worst vs. the worst, I compare about comparing the best from one category against the best of another. In that case, the best of closed source tends to be Microsoft. And FOSS might produce software of roughly equal quality in some cases (web servers, MTAs) but there are plenty of categories where FOSS is significantly worse than closed source (desktop environments, desktop apps, games..)
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@blakeyrat said:
2) You use Linux so what the hell do you know.
Wouldn't that make me an expert on shitty software?
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@zzo38 said:
And, Windows is more messed up than Linux (or any other UNIX system, including prorietary systems); I am a programmer too and I can tell.
And that's a good argument in your book‽
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@heterodox said:
@zzo38 said:
And, Windows is more messed up than Linux (or any other UNIX system, including prorietary systems); I am a programmer too and I can tell.
And that's a good argument in your book‽
Welcome to another edition of TDWTF Classics Weekend!
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@morbiuswilters said:
System G (I'd link it but apparently they pulled the page after it appeared here..)
I'm not sure if I should be happy or sad about this. If only they'd engaged us directly as some authors do.
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@blakeyrat said:
1) We're talking about Windows 95-equivalents, which is System 7.5 and 7.6 more-or-less (the release dates don't line up exactly but eh.)
Morbs was 11 when Win95 came out; the most involvement he had in it was making sure Commander Keen worked well with it.
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@zzo38 said:
And, Windows is more messed up than Linux (or any other UNIX system, including prorietary systems); I am a programmer too and I can tell.
I've used Linux and Windows, and I find Windows to be vastly superior in every way that's meaningful to the average person. And I play a programmer on TV, so I can tell.
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@El_Heffe said:
I've used Linux and Windows, and I find Windows to be vastly superior in every way that's meaningful to the average person. And I play a programmer on TV, so I can tell.
The only place I'd disagree on this is software updates. Windows update works well (mostly) but it's only for MS stuff, leaving us at the mercy of shitty auto-updating software (or nothing at all). I'm most familiar with apt, where it's really easy to add third party repositories, which function, as far as updates and the user are concerned, just like the official distro's repositories. I really wish that MS would allow other software to use the Windows update mechanism to automate security updates.
OK, I lied. It also sucks that you can't have a task bar on multiple monitors with Windows. Maybe the average person doesn't have multiple monitors, but I think it can't be terribly rare, especially with so many laptops floating around.
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@boomzilla said:
OK, I lied. It also sucks that you can't have a task bar on multiple monitors with Windows. Maybe the average person doesn't have multiple monitors, but I think it can't be terribly rare, especially with so many laptops floating around.
I have a four-screen tanning booth in my cube, all portrait mode. (My preference; my co-workers argue with me about that.) One screen is dedicated to monitoring systems, one screen is dedicated to e-mail, the other two screens are for writing configurations, scripts, reading documentation, etc. Quite nice.
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@nonpartisan said:
@blakeyrat said:
1) We're talking about Windows 95-equivalents, which is System 7.5 and 7.6 more-or-less (the release dates don't line up exactly but eh.)
Morbs was 11 when Win95 came out; the most involvement he had in it was making sure Commander Keen worked well with it.Never played Commander Keen. I was writing C when I was 11 (albeit not particularly good C..) I did use Win98 and Win2k considerably more than Win95, that's true.
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@nonpartisan said:
one screen is dedicated to e-mail
What the.. who needs an entire screen dedicated to email?
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@morbiuswilters said:
@nonpartisan said:
I have multiple accounts opened in the folder sidebar, each of which has multiple folders that automatically get messages sorted to them. I have an extensive rule base that sorts my personal email automatically. In one of the generic team email accounts, it can still be faster seeing the monitoring system alerts popping up in their respective folders than getting them over the pager. I also maintain an extensive task list.one screen is dedicated to e-mail
What the.. who needs an entire screen dedicated to email?
It's not really a big deal; I use a smaller 21" monitor for it -- one from my old desktop.
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@nonpartisan said:
have a four-screen tanning booth in my cube, all portrait mode. (My preference; my co-workers argue with me about that.)
Are you a programmer?
Is a least one of the screens 1200px wide?
Then your coworkers are idiots, since I use the same setup and it's so obviously better. But I've had this conversation before.
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@morbiuswilters said:
What the.. who needs an entire screen dedicated to email?
I have seen several people who - when they double-click an email to open it - immediately maximise that window, so we're looking at half an inch of content that tops a few square acres of white. It's called "Windows", not "Window".
I invariably fight a nervous tic and attempt to control Fist Of Death. It's their machine, their monitor, their workflow process, and my time they're wasting whilst they open-maximise-close-next-open-maximise-noThatsNotIt-close-gaaahhhAAARRRGHHHGHRRARRRR--
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I am severely disappointed in this thread. I mean, Windows v. FOSS? Again? It's like there's no "Rest of the Internet" out there. I really wanted to see some good old fashioned flaming about Javascript Semicolons, but instead we got 4 pages of crap.
(Also, Paint.NET is the best FOSS application -- and it's for Windows)
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@pkmnfrk said:
(Also, Paint.NET is the best FOSS application -- and it's for Windows)
Wow, it's open source? I never realized.
Yeah, it's pretty good.
Of course, they're going to do a complete rewrite for version 4, so that's probably the last we'll ever see of this application.
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Whoops, fact checking is for pussies. No, Paint.NET is only free, it is not Open Source. Probably for the better, but my bad.
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@pkmnfrk said:
I am severely disappointed in this thread. I mean, Windows v. FOSS? Again? It's like there's no "Rest of the Internet" out there. I really wanted to see some good old fashioned flaming about Javascript Semicolons, but instead we got 4 pages of crap.
(Also, Paint.NET is the best FOSS application -- and it's for Windows)
Shut up, you're distracting the argument!
So, remember that one time when that one guy said Linux sucked and that other guy said "Na-uh, Windows suck!"? Yeah, that was awesome. Good times.
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@boomzilla said:
OK, I lied. It also sucks that you can't have a task bar on multiple monitors with Windows. Maybe the average person doesn't have multiple monitors, but I think it can't be terribly rare, especially with so many laptops floating around.
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@Sutherlands said:
@boomzilla said:
OK, I lied. It also sucks that you can't have a task bar on multiple monitors with Windows. Maybe the average person doesn't have multiple monitors, but I think it can't be terribly rare, especially with so many laptops floating around.
I was wondering when this link would show up. Great, $40 to add some obvious UI functionality.
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@boomzilla said:
@Sutherlands said:
So if you already knew about it, why didn't you mention it? Yes, it costs $40, but I still provided you a solution to your problem that you provided no hint of knowing anything about.
I was wondering when this link would show up. Great, $40 to add some obvious UI functionality.@boomzilla said:
OK, I lied. It also sucks that you can't have a task bar on multiple monitors with Windows. Maybe the average person doesn't have multiple monitors, but I think it can't be terribly rare, especially with so many laptops floating around.
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@Cassidy said:
I don't do that; I'll happily have multiple emails up at a time non-maximized. I just prefer to keep the main Outlook window maximized on its own screen for ready reference when I don't have any messages open.@morbiuswilters said:
What the.. who needs an entire screen dedicated to email?
I have seen several people who - when they double-click an email to open it - immediately maximise that window, so we're looking at half an inch of content that tops a few square acres of white. It's called "Windows", not "Window".
I invariably fight a nervous tic and attempt to control Fist Of Death. It's their machine, their monitor, their workflow process, and my time they're wasting whilst they open-maximise-close-next-open-maximise-noThatsNotIt-close-gaaahhhAAARRRGHHHGHRRARRRR--
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@dhromed said:
I've got two 21" screens and two 24" screens, all in portrait mode. I do a lot of script programing, but mostly I'm logged into routers and switches or writing config files (both for network gear and our monitoring systems). When analyzing data from our monitoring systems, it's helpful to be able to maximize those windows vertically because I'll frequently be looking at a subset of our interfaces, perhaps a hundred or more. I can get around 150 lines visible in vi doing it like this. Finally, when I'm reading documentation, I can read a page at a time without scrolling or zooming. My co-workers talk about wide spreadsheets. I sometimes have to look at those, but for my major day-to-day operations portrait mode suits me best. (I think I have the 21" monitors at 1050x1680 and the 24" monitors at . . . 1280 x 1920??? Whatever the HD ratio would be there; I'm not at work today.)@nonpartisan said:
have a four-screen tanning booth in my cube, all portrait mode. (My preference; my co-workers argue with me about that.)
Are you a programmer?
Is a least one of the screens 1200px wide?
Then your coworkers are idiots, since I use the same setup and it's so obviously better. But I've had this conversation before.
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@Sutherlands said:
So if you already knew about it, why didn't you mention it? Yes, it costs $40, but I still provided you a solution to your problem that you provided no hint of knowing anything about.
It doesn't change the fact that Windows doesn't let you do this itself, so it doesn't change my argument that it's something about windows that bugs me.
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@pkmnfrk said:
I really wanted to see some good old fashioned flaming about Javascript Semicolons, but instead we got 4 pages of crap.
I don't think we had anyone who was against semicolons. I tried my best to entertain you... :(
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@morbiuswilters said:
@pkmnfrk said:
I really wanted to see some good old fashioned flaming about Javascript Semicolons, but instead we got 4 pages of crap.
I don't think we had anyone who was against semicolons. I tried my best to entertain you... :(
Stop being such a cheapskate and get the whole damn colon already.
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@El_Heffe said:
I've used Linux and Windows, and I find Windows to be vastly superior in every way that's meaningful to the average person. And I play a programmer on TV, so I can tell.
To the average person, yes usually Windows has meaningful. But, note there are many Linux distributions. And playing a programmer on TV is unlikely to mean much to this case.
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@zzo38 said:
And playing a programmer on TV is unlikely to mean much to this case.
It's true. More to the point, you should be staying at a Holiday Inn Express.
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@nonpartisan said:
I've got two 21" screens and two 24" screens, all in portrait mode. I do a lot
Maaaay be QooC, but - - - if that's a significant part of your job, I don't envy you.
of script programing, but mostly I'm logged into routers and switches or writing
config files
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@boomzilla said:
@morbiuswilters said:
@pkmnfrk said:
I really wanted to see some good old fashioned flaming about Javascript Semicolons, but instead we got 4 pages of crap.
I don't think we had anyone who was against semicolons. I tried my best to entertain you... :(
Stop being such a cheapskate and get the whole damn colon already.
Why buy the dhromed when you can get the colon for free?
