Discussion of NodeBB Updates
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@boomzilla Wait, what actions in the police thread, do you mean the bans or was there something else before that? I'm assuming it's still the same one in the Salon and I don't go there, so I have no clue.
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@blek From my perspective (I wasn't involved), it looked like
- Usual Salon/Garage border discussion. As polite as things ever really get around here. Lots of disagreements and some heat and some off-color jokes. Ie Status Quo.
- Lubar comes in posting (repeatedly) total garage-bait and making vague accusations of bigotry, neo-nazi apologia.
- When reminded that it's the Salon, he said something like "I'm sick of civility being used as a mask/excuse for bigotry"
- Then started banning people who disagreed with him or asked questions. Without actually trying to talk to people.
It came across as super heavy-handed, arbitrary, and unpleasant. I will say that personally, if that behavior continues even for temporary bans, I'll leave. Smacks too much of other forums where the admins selectively squelch people that have the temerity to disagree with them. Especially when the admin in question isn't even the owner but merely the tech support person.
Which would be a total shame. As villainous as y'all are (that's a joke), this is one of the better places to actually talk about things on the internet.
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@Benjamin-Hall Right. Yeah, as I said, I've seen that before. It never ends well.
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@TimeBandit I just clicked on the
icon in the top left corner to get back to the forum index, and a toaster popped up with an unfinished post that I must have written ages ago - something about the only good new Star Wars movie being Rogue One. I don't remember discussing Star Wars on here in ages. I have no idea what caused that, but there's definitely some fuckery going on.
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A lot of you are making assumptions about the locality or duration of the problem. Those assumptions are incorrect.
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@ben_lubar Which problem?
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@blek based on the thread title, NodeBB updates
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@Benjamin-Hall said in Discussion of NodeBB Updates:
@blek From my perspective (I wasn't involved), it looked like
- Usual Salon/Garage border discussion. As polite as things ever really get around here. Lots of disagreements and some heat and some off-color jokes. Ie Status Quo.
- Lubar comes in posting (repeatedly) total garage-bait and making vague accusations of bigotry, neo-nazi apologia.
- When reminded that it's the Salon, he said something like "I'm sick of civility being used as a mask/excuse for bigotry"
- Then started banning people who disagreed with him or asked questions. Without actually trying to talk to people.
Plus removing the only regularly active admin. The remaining admins now other than Kim Jong Lubar are several people who've not been here for years and @apapadimoulis who only logs on when he remembers he even has a forum.
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@ben_lubar said in Discussion of NodeBB Updates:
A lot of you are making assumptions about the locality or duration of the problem. Those assumptions are incorrect.
The problem is that you're not clarifying. That's why people are making assumptions.
Regardless of political views, or such (I happen to agree with your views, usually), this is beyond the norm of these forums, and you're weilding your administrative control despite not really having the authority to use it here. Disagree as much as you want, but you can't just ban people because you don't like them or what they say - it's destructive for the community, and leads those people who were banned or demoted to believe they were in the right - it's counterproductive to the change you're attempting to make. It makes you look like a dictator and makes even people who agree with you question things.
As others have suggested, please allow yourself time to calm down, and don't keep doing things that will hurt both the community and your reputation in it.
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@blek said in Discussion of NodeBB Updates:
@boomzilla Wait, what actions in the police thread, do you mean the bans or was there something else before that? I'm assuming it's still the same one in the Salon and I don't go there, so I have no clue.
Basically, as mentioned, Ben posted some inappropriate things and made some vague accusations about bigotry. From memory, he wasn't replying to anyone and didn't mention anyone.
Shortly after I asked him For clarification I noticed his accusatory post on the Updates the. I went to discuss that on the staff category and noticed that it wasn't there any more, which was my first hint of my
demotionfreedom from work.He's so far avoided clarifying anything, so who knows?
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@loopback0 You know what, that's actually perfect. Now we need to overthrow Ben and declare this place an internet CHAZ. The TDWTFAZ, if you will. No gods, no masters! I can't imagine anything going wrong with this.
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@boomzilla said in Discussion of NodeBB Updates:
Ben posted some inappropriate things
If video evidence of police violence is off-topic for a thread about police violence, I'm not sure what kind of discussion forum this is, but it doesn't sound like a good one.
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@Benjamin-Hall said in Discussion of NodeBB Updates:
Especially when the admin in question isn't even the owner but merely the tech support person.
That actually pops another weasel. Other than Ben, the most recently active admin (now) hasn't even looked at the forums since early April, and the remaining 4 date to 2016 or earlier.
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@ben_lubar said in Discussion of NodeBB Updates:
A lot of you are making assumptions about the locality or duration of the problem.
The only immediate problem that's clear here is you.
You're communicating everything else in fucking riddles so what do you really expect?
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@ben_lubar said in Discussion of NodeBB Updates:
A lot of you are making assumptions about the locality or duration of the problem. Those assumptions are incorrect.
The fact that you don't actually explain anything and instead make vague, unsubstantiated, and really really offensive (yes, calling someone a neo-nazi sympathizer is extremely offensive) accusations against long-standing admins and forum members isn't helping your case. Seriously. I've been lurking or commenting here for a good long time at this point. And these actions are completely out of left field and completely dissimilar to the last permanent ban of a major contributor (@Fox).
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@ben_lubar said in Discussion of NodeBB Updates:
@boomzilla said in Discussion of NodeBB Updates:
Ben posted some inappropriate things
If video evidence of police violence is off-topic for a thread about police violence, I'm not sure what kind of discussion forum this is, but it doesn't sound like a good one.
Categories mean things. Fox was banned for aggressively leaking garage material outside the garage. You brought garage material (plus direct accusations of bad behavior, also a no-no) into the Salon.
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@ben_lubar It's
arguingin bad faith. You aren't interested in any discussion of the problem or how to fix it, just dropping bombs mid-thread to foment outrage. Whether or not the outrage is justified, that's not what that entire category is for. We have a completely separate category for that for good reason!
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@ben_lubar said in Discussion of NodeBB Updates:
@boomzilla said in Discussion of NodeBB Updates:
Ben posted some inappropriate things
If video evidence of police violence is off-topic for a thread about police violence, I'm not sure what kind of discussion forum this is, but it doesn't sound like a good one.
Now who is assuming? The tweets were probably fine. The words you posted were clearly inflammatory, which isn't too surprising, honestly. Most of your interactions with the salon were shutting down that's where people said things you disagreed with. You seem to believe that because you're incapable of civil discussion, no one is.
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To everyone accusing me of calling people nazi sympathizers:
I never did that.
I posted that using the tactics that neo-nazis (whom I have banned a lot of on the fediverse) try to use to muddy the waters will not work here.
If you're angry that I'm pointing out that tactics you want to use are the same tactics neo-nazis use when they're cornered, that's a sign that you should examine your tactics more closely.
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@ben_lubar said in Discussion of NodeBB Updates:
A lot of you are making assumptions about the locality or duration of the problem. Those assumptions are incorrect.
With no information coming from the staff - and based on what @boomzilla has said, no information going to the affected parties - we are left to gather evidence about what happened. Since most of those affected were in the police thread right up until the punishments were handed out, and the others were commenting on the nazi shit in this thread, it seems reasonable to assume that it is all connected. Especially since you pointed us directly to a post with the implication that it was the reason @polygeekery was banned - a post where he was clearly making a joke.
Look, I get trying to keep punishments private, but if you want the assumptions to end, then inform us what the hell happened. If you don't give a shit about the assumptions, then don't bother commenting on it. It feels too much like you're playing a game trying to make the forum dance to some tune that only you know.
FInally, given that there are multiple, well known people getting banned, it's probably a good idea to at least provide some explanation of why these bans were issued. It might even serve to deter other people from whatever the undesirable behavior was.
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@Polygeekery said in Discussion of NodeBB Updates:
@ben_lubar said in Discussion of NodeBB Updates:
I'm not a huge fan of eugenics-based autism charities.
I didn't think I was either......but they're growing on me.
For anyone confused about this, Autism Speaks is a charity ostensibly for supporting autistic people but actually pretty nasty. I don't know specifically what the eugenics comment is about but I do know that a lot of autistic people are not fans of them.
@Polygeekery's comment, in the context and knowing that @ben_lubar is autistic, could definitely be seen as more than just an off colour joke. A permaban with no warning is extreme, and hopefully Ben will rethink it, or at least give poly a chance to respond, but the comment was beyond his normal level of snarkyness into being plain nasty
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@ben_lubar Ben, again, I implore you, please go do something else for a while, for the sake of both your own mental health and this forums. I know "please save the forums" doesn't sound very compelling right now, because you're angry and you'd rather see it die than continue to permit people you hate to talk, but you'll hopefully feel different after you sleep on it. I promise to stop shitposting, it's already past midnight for me anyway and I should go sleep.
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@Jaloopa said in Discussion of NodeBB Updates:
@Polygeekery said in Discussion of NodeBB Updates:
@ben_lubar said in Discussion of NodeBB Updates:
I'm not a huge fan of eugenics-based autism charities.
I didn't think I was either......but they're growing on me.
For anyone confused about this, Autism Speaks is a charity ostensibly for supporting autistic people but actually pretty nasty. I don't know specifically what the eugenics comment is about but I do know that a lot of autistic people are not fans of them.
@Polygeekery's comment, in the context and knowing that @ben_lubar is autistic, could definitely be seen as more than just an off colour joke. A permaban with no warning is extreme, and hopefully Ben will rethink it, or at least give poly a chance to respond, but the comment was beyond his normal level of snarkyness into being plain nasty
Agreed. Both the Autism Speaks joke, and the subsequent response, were, while possibly not perma-ban worthy, definitely past the line of what I'd consider OK.
(The implication in the response, because eugenics is primarily about "cleaning the gene pool", via killing those with unwanted traits, could be considered a convoluted death threat. Which is, again, definitely not OK)
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@ben_lubar said in Discussion of NodeBB Updates:
I posted that using the tactics that neo-nazis (whom I have banned a lot of on the fediverse) try to use to muddy the waters will not work here.
If you're angry that I'm pointing out that tactics you want to use are the same tactics neo-nazis use when they're cornered, that's a sign that you should examine your tactics more closely.
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@ben_lubar said in Discussion of NodeBB Updates:
To everyone accusing me of calling people nazi sympathizers:
I never did that.
I posted that using the tactics that neo-nazis (whom I have banned a lot of on the fediverse) try to use to muddy the waters will not work here.
If you're angry that I'm pointing out that tactics you want to use are the same tactics neo-nazis use when they're cornered, that's a sign that you should examine your tactics more closely.
But what tactics? I really don't know. That's a 100 percent serious question. I think I must be less familiar with neo-nazis than you are. Can you see how bringing them into a discussion where they have no place would upset people?
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@boomzilla said in Discussion of NodeBB Updates:
@ben_lubar said in Discussion of NodeBB Updates:
To everyone accusing me of calling people nazi sympathizers:
I never did that.
I posted that using the tactics that neo-nazis (whom I have banned a lot of on the fediverse) try to use to muddy the waters will not work here.
If you're angry that I'm pointing out that tactics you want to use are the same tactics neo-nazis use when they're cornered, that's a sign that you should examine your tactics more closely.
But what tactics? I really don't know. That's a 100 percent serious question. I think I must be less familiar with neo-nazis than you are. Can you see how bringing them into a discussion where they have no place would upset people?
Yeah. To me, being vague about that is worse than no explanation. Because it seems like just a slur. And a hateful one at that.
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@TimeBandit said in Discussion of NodeBB Updates:
@blek based on the thread title, NodeBB updates
Is it the problem of a week+ of missing posts? I'd like that problem solved.
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@boomzilla said in Discussion of NodeBB Updates:
@ben_lubar said in Discussion of NodeBB Updates:
To everyone accusing me of calling people nazi sympathizers:
I never did that.
I posted that using the tactics that neo-nazis (whom I have banned a lot of on the fediverse) try to use to muddy the waters will not work here.
If you're angry that I'm pointing out that tactics you want to use are the same tactics neo-nazis use when they're cornered, that's a sign that you should examine your tactics more closely.
But what tactics? I really don't know. That's a 100 percent serious question. I think I must be less familiar with neo-nazis than you are. Can you see how bringing them into a discussion where they have no place would upset people?
A common tactic they use is trying to establish a definite boundary between acceptable and unacceptable behavior so that they can brush up against the limit and accuse anyone who punishes their repeated bad behavior of overreacting.
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@Jaloopa said in Discussion of NodeBB Updates:
@Polygeekery's comment, in the context and knowing that @ben_lubar is autistic, could definitely be seen as more than just an off colour joke.
But it was not a statement that he wanted to commit genocide, which is what he was accused of.
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@loopback0 said in Discussion of NodeBB Updates:
@Jaloopa said in Discussion of NodeBB Updates:
@Polygeekery's comment, in the context and knowing that @ben_lubar is autistic, could definitely be seen as more than just an off colour joke.
But it was not a statement that he wanted to commit genocide, which is what he was accused of.
What was it a statement of, then?
What other possible meaning could there be to that series of words in that context?
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@ben_lubar said in Discussion of NodeBB Updates:
@boomzilla said in Discussion of NodeBB Updates:
@ben_lubar said in Discussion of NodeBB Updates:
To everyone accusing me of calling people nazi sympathizers:
I never did that.
I posted that using the tactics that neo-nazis (whom I have banned a lot of on the fediverse) try to use to muddy the waters will not work here.
If you're angry that I'm pointing out that tactics you want to use are the same tactics neo-nazis use when they're cornered, that's a sign that you should examine your tactics more closely.
But what tactics? I really don't know. That's a 100 percent serious question. I think I must be less familiar with neo-nazis than you are. Can you see how bringing them into a discussion where they have no place would upset people?
A common tactic they use is trying to establish a definite boundary between acceptable and unacceptable behavior so that they can brush up against the limit and accuse anyone who punishes their repeated bad behavior of overreacting.
The problem, Ben, is that the "acceptable" and "unacceptable" boundary, in the context of the Salon, was agreed upon by pretty much everyone in the forum. The salon is a place to have respectful conversations regarding politics. Inflammatory speech, from any side, is not acceptable there.
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@boomzilla said in Discussion of NodeBB Updates:
I went to discuss that on the staff category
I feel like these discussions should be more open (but not fully public). Lounge maybe?
_TL4?
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@ben_lubar it was a nasty and bad taste joke. I sincerely doubt he actually wants to ethnically cleanse autism. I get that it's probably really offensive to you and I immediately downvoted, before I'd seen he was banned. But you're angry right now, and probably not taking actions that are the best long term
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@Jaloopa said in Discussion of NodeBB Updates:
knowing that @ben_lubar is autistic
Who isn't at least somewhat autistic around here? I'm completely serious right now, for once in my life. This is a forum centered around information technology, populated by people who are so much into computers they seek out forums specifically about IT. Everyone here is deep into the ol' spectrum.
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The salon thread was getting to the point where I was about to mute it. Too many people making unfounded accusations stated as fact, and I don't really want to be reading that sort of shit right now
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@ben_lubar said in Discussion of NodeBB Updates:
@boomzilla said in Discussion of NodeBB Updates:
@ben_lubar said in Discussion of NodeBB Updates:
To everyone accusing me of calling people nazi sympathizers:
I never did that.
I posted that using the tactics that neo-nazis (whom I have banned a lot of on the fediverse) try to use to muddy the waters will not work here.
If you're angry that I'm pointing out that tactics you want to use are the same tactics neo-nazis use when they're cornered, that's a sign that you should examine your tactics more closely.
But what tactics? I really don't know. That's a 100 percent serious question. I think I must be less familiar with neo-nazis than you are. Can you see how bringing them into a discussion where they have no place would upset people?
A common tactic they use is trying to establish a definite boundary between acceptable and unacceptable behavior so that they can brush up against the limit and accuse anyone who punishes their repeated bad behavior of overreacting.
That's not even what anyone was doing in there. You we making inflammatory posts not directed at anyone.
I still have no idea what you were talking about in there when you are making unsupported accusations of bigotry.
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@boomzilla said in Discussion of NodeBB Updates:
@ben_lubar said in Discussion of NodeBB Updates:
@boomzilla said in Discussion of NodeBB Updates:
@ben_lubar said in Discussion of NodeBB Updates:
To everyone accusing me of calling people nazi sympathizers:
I never did that.
I posted that using the tactics that neo-nazis (whom I have banned a lot of on the fediverse) try to use to muddy the waters will not work here.
If you're angry that I'm pointing out that tactics you want to use are the same tactics neo-nazis use when they're cornered, that's a sign that you should examine your tactics more closely.
But what tactics? I really don't know. That's a 100 percent serious question. I think I must be less familiar with neo-nazis than you are. Can you see how bringing them into a discussion where they have no place would upset people?
A common tactic they use is trying to establish a definite boundary between acceptable and unacceptable behavior so that they can brush up against the limit and accuse anyone who punishes their repeated bad behavior of overreacting.
That's not even what anyone was doing in there. You we making inflammatory posts not directed at anyone.
I still have no idea what you were talking about in there when you are making unsupported accusations of bigotry.
I understand what he's saying there, and I've seen it in action too. I just want him to understand that while he's seen that tactic used, that isn't what's happening here, because that's the reason that category exists to begin with.
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@error said in Discussion of NodeBB Updates:
@boomzilla said in Discussion of NodeBB Updates:
I went to discuss that on the staff category
I feel like these discussions should be more open (but not fully public). Lounge maybe?
_TL4?Agreed. But someone started calling people neo-nazis very publicly.
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@blek said in Discussion of NodeBB Updates:
@Jaloopa said in Discussion of NodeBB Updates:
knowing that @ben_lubar is autistic
Who isn't at least somewhat autistic around here? I'm completely serious right now, for once in my life. This is a forum centered around information technology, populated by people who are so much into computers they seek out forums specifically about IT. Everyone here is deep into the ol' spectrum.
No. I've done a few different assessments, and I'm pretty far over towards the neurotypical end of the spectrum. I'm antisocial and introverted with low levels of social anxiety at times, but autism is not those things. Plenty of people get into computers without having a diagnosable condition
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@ben_lubar said in Discussion of NodeBB Updates:
@loopback0 said in Discussion of NodeBB Updates:
@Jaloopa said in Discussion of NodeBB Updates:
@Polygeekery's comment, in the context and knowing that @ben_lubar is autistic, could definitely be seen as more than just an off colour joke.
But it was not a statement that he wanted to commit genocide, which is what he was accused of.
What was it a statement of, then?
Nothing. It was a joke (in poor taste, sure) and it wasn't even about genocide.
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Well, according to that super accurate autism test a few weeks ago I am apparently normal.
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@loopback0 said in Discussion of NodeBB Updates:
and it wasn't even about genocide.
That's how I read it
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@boomzilla said in Discussion of NodeBB Updates:
@error said in Discussion of NodeBB Updates:
@boomzilla said in Discussion of NodeBB Updates:
I went to discuss that on the staff category
I feel like these discussions should be more open (but not fully public). Lounge maybe?
_TL4?Agreed. But someone started calling people neo-nazis very publicly.
I'm not accusing you of anything, but your behavior so far today has matched exactly what my experience of dealing with neo-nazis in the fediverse has taught me to look out for.
I'd encourage people to also read the Wikipedia article on DARVO (don't worry, it's short) for context.
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@sloosecannon said in Discussion of NodeBB Updates:
@boomzilla said in Discussion of NodeBB Updates:
@ben_lubar said in Discussion of NodeBB Updates:
@boomzilla said in Discussion of NodeBB Updates:
@ben_lubar said in Discussion of NodeBB Updates:
To everyone accusing me of calling people nazi sympathizers:
I never did that.
I posted that using the tactics that neo-nazis (whom I have banned a lot of on the fediverse) try to use to muddy the waters will not work here.
If you're angry that I'm pointing out that tactics you want to use are the same tactics neo-nazis use when they're cornered, that's a sign that you should examine your tactics more closely.
But what tactics? I really don't know. That's a 100 percent serious question. I think I must be less familiar with neo-nazis than you are. Can you see how bringing them into a discussion where they have no place would upset people?
A common tactic they use is trying to establish a definite boundary between acceptable and unacceptable behavior so that they can brush up against the limit and accuse anyone who punishes their repeated bad behavior of overreacting.
That's not even what anyone was doing in there. You we making inflammatory posts not directed at anyone.
I still have no idea what you were talking about in there when you are making unsupported accusations of bigotry.
I understand what he's saying there, and I've seen it in action too. I just want him to understand that while he's seen that tactic used, that isn't what's happening here, because that's the reason that category exists to begin with.
Sure. And so has every parent. The neo-nazi slur was completely uncalled for.
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@loopback0 said in Discussion of NodeBB Updates:
@ben_lubar said in Discussion of NodeBB Updates:
@loopback0 said in Discussion of NodeBB Updates:
@Jaloopa said in Discussion of NodeBB Updates:
@Polygeekery's comment, in the context and knowing that @ben_lubar is autistic, could definitely be seen as more than just an off colour joke.
But it was not a statement that he wanted to commit genocide, which is what he was accused of.
What was it a statement of, then?
Nothing. It was a joke (in poor taste, sure) and it wasn't even about genocide.
To be clear, it's roughly analogous to "joking" that "maybe the KKK was right after all", in the context it was delivered
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@Jaloopa said in Discussion of NodeBB Updates:
Autism Speaks is a charity ostensibly for supporting autistic people
This was the extent of my knowledge of that organization.
but actually pretty nasty. I don't know specifically
That makes the response more clear, but I'm still lacking crucial context. You're going to make me do research, aren't you?
Fuck, I'm probably mildly autistic (but, surprisingly, only about median for the people who posted autism scores in the lounge), and I assumed they were allies.
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@error Autism Speaks treats autism as a disease, and has the intention of "wiping out" autism, which is, by definition, eugenics.
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@Jaloopa said in Discussion of NodeBB Updates:
@ben_lubar is autistic
First off, I had no idea about that until this post. It may be possible that @polygeekery didn't know either.
@Jaloopa said in Discussion of NodeBB Updates:
@Polygeekery's comment, in the context and knowing that @ben_lubar is autistic, could definitely be seen as more than just an off colour joke.
I understand that, and knowing the full context now, I kind of understand that ban. But when you are personally involved, you don't directly handle the punishments. You let some other staff deal with it. For example, when I was a mod a few years ago, another member would get drunk and then proceed to harass me on the forum, frequently including very antagonizing comments about my religion. Instead of banning him myself, I made sure the other mods and admins were aware of the problem and let them handle it. If there were other active mods or admins at the time, @ben_lubar should have let someone else handle it. In the current situation, he should have stepped away for a few hours before doing anything.
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Actual autistic people generally despise them. One described Autism Speaks as "a charity for neurotypical people who have been afflicted with the horror of having autistic people in their lives
