Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!
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@cvi Yeah, a truckload of masks meant for the Czech Republic is stuck in Germany as well. Since we're a landlocked country and everyone around us has a similar ban on export of medical equipment, the only way to import anything is to fly it in.
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@dkf said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@PleegWat said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
US exclusivity
It'll be about the US gaining the economic benefits of the exclusivity over manufacturing of the vaccine for something that will probably become an annual disease a bit like flu. They'll sell to everyone (it doesn't make sense not to, as the world's too interconnected) but they want to have all the money earned coming to them. The current US administration has a clear policy of putting economic benefits for themselves above everything else, and this is across many areas of policy so it'd be really unusual for this to be any different.
That's more or less what I was thinking would be closer to reality.
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@boomzilla Would still make it a move of rather dubious morals.
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@PleegWat said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
Dear Belgians,
The fact we have a prohibition of assembly at 100 people while you have a full forced closure of all restaurants, pubs, etc. does not mean we've being irresponsible. It also doesn't mean you can mass go to Dutch pubs.
Thanks for your understanding,
The Dutch.
Since the plan was floated the other week to make English a fourth official language in B•••••m, you might as well use that language to address them, I suppose …
@JBert said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
B#####n government: you seriously need to stop gathering. We'll close the shops and bars.
B#####n people: sure, but first we'll go for a last drink, there's a jolly crowd over here.As one Flemish man I heard on the radio news this morning put it: “I normally drink one beer in the pub every night. Now they’re going to close for three weeks, I need to make up for that.” Apparently, he had had his fifteenth at the time.
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@Gurth said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
a fourth official language
Three isn't enough?
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@anonymous234 said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
Gloves are so impractical for that reason. I always thought there ought to be some kind of tool that would let you put on and take off your gloves in less than a second. It would greatly reduce this kind of problem.
There is a technique for using gloves. Essentially you put them on by only touching the wrist area (after thoroughly washing your hands) and if possible only the inside of the gloves. Then when you take them off you do so by grabbing them by your wrist opening and turning them inside out as you remove them and the second glove ends up inside the first.
Hard to explain, but makes sense when demonstrated. But yes, it takes time.
On the other hand, I found out that UV resin is so toxic that you can get dermatitis on your wrist just from removing gloves and after rinsing the outside of the gloves with IPA and washing your hands right after removing those gloves. Contact and exposure time was as low as I could conceive of it ever being and I still ended up with a rash on my left wrist.
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Well, the B******s are getting their desire: Dutch pubs, restaurants, etc. are all closed since 18:00 today. Large cinema chains have announced they're closing up as well.
Schools will be closed after all. For parents in key sectors (There's a list, in Dutch childcare will still be offered in schools.
All measures extended to 6 April, for now.
They're also talking about what to do with Schiphol/Amsterdam Airport. Apart from a number of repatriation flights in the coming week, it appears passenger air travel will be grinding to a halt. I've seen it suggested (but can't find a link offhand) to just close the airspace and be done with it, though more serious signals indicate freight flights would mostly not be impacted.
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@acrow said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
kids 7yo+ can survive a few hours on their own.
You've not met my eight year old. I love the boy, but if I left him alone for longer than it takes to walk to the mailbox and back I would come home to a crater and heartbreak.
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Word on the streets (well, the internet) is that Czech Republic is going into Italy-style lockdown starting on Monday. The cabinet will be holding a press conference in 45 minutes so nothing is official, but I've seen a photo of the proposal that someone leaked. Anything non-essential is to be shut down and people will be banned from leaving their homes unless they're going to work, getting meds or groceries, or heading out to provide care for someone else (e.g. getting groceries for relatives).
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Anti-inflammatories may aggravate Covid-19, France advises
French minister says patients should take paracetamol rather than ibuprofen or cortisone
French minister says patients should take paracetamol rather than ibuprofen or cortisone
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@Rhywden said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
Anti-inflammatories may aggravate Covid-19, France advises
French minister says patients should take paracetamol rather than ibuprofen or cortisone
French minister says patients should take paracetamol rather than ibuprofen or cortisone
If this is true, you should avoid aspirin and ketonal too (the're basically the same type of drugs as ibuprofen)
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@sebastian-galczynski From what I've read on it, this is actually not news - in case of an infection you can not control via antibiotics these type of drugs are counterproductive.
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@Rhywden true shit? If so, TIL.
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@Polygeekery I'm not a doctor but it makes sense - these drugs reduce the pain and fever as well as the inflammation. And the latter is usually rather important to actually combat infections.
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@Rhywden how so? How would reducing inflammation be a bad thing in this case?
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@Polygeekery said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@Rhywden how so? How would reducing inflammation be a bad thing in this case?
From what I understood about it (someone correct me if I'm wrong), an inflammation is merely a symptom that your immune system is at work. There are even definitions under which every immune response is labelled an inflammation.
So, basically, suppressing inflammations means suppressing the immune response. Which, in this case, is a Bad ThingTM.
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@Rhywden makes sense. I usually let fevers run their course unless I get really miserable with the thought that a fever is also a sign of your immune system working. But if I do take something I usually take Ibuprofen.
Guess I won't do that anymore. TIL.
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@Polygeekery @Rhywden the thing with inflammation is, sometimes your immune system overdoes it and actually harms your body more than help it combat the infection. And inflammation is not the only immune response there is. Generally speaking, the kind of ailments you take ibuprofen against is something that doesn't need a strong immune response (even though I myself try to take paracetamol/acetaminophen when I'm under the weather) so it's not a problem to reduce inflammation. Take corticosteroids, for example. They are essential for certain conditions. Ibuprofen and other NSAIDs are the best thing you can take when it comes to painful conditions such as aches and pains, headaches, etc.
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@admiral_p Yes, that's why I said "in this case".
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@Polygeekery said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@acrow said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
kids 7yo+ can survive a few hours on their own.
You've not met my eight year old. I love the boy, but if I left him alone for longer than it takes to walk to the mailbox and back I would come home to a crater and heartbreak.
Have you tried this new thing called parenting?
I’m joking.
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@Polygeekery said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
You've not met my eight year old. I love the boy, but if I left him alone for longer than it takes to walk to the mailbox and back I would come home to a crater
On the upside, sounds like he has a bright future as an engineer.
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@Rhywden just to make things more interesting, SÚKL (the Czech government entity in charge of drug approvals, equivalent of the Federal Drug Administration in the USA) just called this fake news.
#COVID-19 - WE EDUCATE!
The antiinflammatory properties of ibuprofen do not mean it lessens immunity, as some "fake news" say. By the same logic, it would be dangerous to use for flu patients, which isn't true.
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@blek And here we go! The press event was 5 hours late but we're in quarantine for a week (so far), starting Monday.
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@blek there should be IIRC some limited evidence that recovery times are prolonged with the use of NSAIDs or corticosteroids, but yes, ibuprofen isn't harmful per se (otherwise it wouldn't have been approved). Or rather, it is harmful just like most medications are (NSAIDs generally speaking are harmful to the stomach, paracetamol is harmful to the liver, etc.). Personally I still generally prefer paracetamol when I have the flu or a temperature in general as it is an antipyretic as well. Actually you could take both.
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A thought: how long will pampered westerners put up with a full lockdown? One week? Two? Is that long enough to have a substantial effect?
And even a more lax distancing can't go on forever--businesses will fail, putting people out of work. Or people will go to work because they have to. Most of the workers can't really work remotely, after all.
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@Benjamin-Hall here in Italy the lockdown is supposed to last at least until 25 March. There are some rumours that the lockdown will actually be tightened a bit. You see, just to get on @Gąska 's nerves, the decree has been "badly" written, meaning that it's (purposely?) very vague. So the business closures are all right, legally speaking (there are clear indications to it), but citizens aren't expressly forbidden from leaving their homes because that would be unconstitutional, even during a state of war (the citizens' basic rights can never be suspended in Italy; in fact there is no true martial law in Italy). So citizens don't actually have to stay home (there is only an express ban on public gatherings) and in the actual wording of the decree they are urged to stay home and leave their homes only for "justifiable reasons".
More specifically:
a) evitare ogni spostamento delle persone fisiche in entrata e in uscita dai territori di cui al presente articolo, nonché all'interno dei medesimi territori, salvo che per gli spostamenti motivati da comprovate esigenze lavorative o situazioni di necessità ovvero spostamenti per motivi di salute. È consentito il rientro presso il proprio domicilio, abitazione o residenza;
b) ai soggetti con sintomatologia da infezione respiratoria e febbre (maggiore di 37,5° C) è fortemente raccomandato di rimanere presso il proprio domicilio e limitare al massimo i contatti sociali, contattando il proprio medico curante;(DeepL):
a) avoid any movement of natural persons into and out of the territories referred to in this Article, as well as within those territories, except for movements motivated by proven occupational needs or situations of need or movements for health reasons. It is permitted to return to one's home, residence or residence;
b) subjects with respiratory symptoms and fever (over 37.5° C) are strongly recommended to stay at home and limit social contacts as much as possible by contacting their doctor;So what happens is that basically the police is now charging people with violation of the regulations at their discretion, even though probably most of these charges will be thrown out of court. (In fact the Ministry has expressly stated that healthy people who aren't positive for the virus can actually go out for a walk or do sporting activity, as long as they maintain a certain distance from other people, but these indications are in a FAQ and not in the law because, if they were, the decree would amount to nothing). Heh... but in a Western country with clear provisions against the limitation of basic rights, how can you even word a prohibition? Right now it's all left to "common sense".
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@admiral_p That answers part of it, but what's going to happen when people just plain run out of money for food? I'm very very lucky that I'm on salary and can (sort of) work from home doing online classes. But a large chunk of the economy (especially the bottom half) can't, just by the nature of the thing. And if everyone's staying home, that means no one's building buildings (construction workers), eating at restaurants/visiting clubs (most of entertainment/food service), getting haircuts, etc. Those businesses won't survive that long, and less if they try to pay their idled workers. And that doesn't pay rent--even assuming that no eviction are allowed (reasonable), you're looking at the landlords having a money crunch if their expenses keep up (and are probably more expensive due to restrictions) but the rent doesn't.
And if international shipping stops, that disrupts a lot of things entirely. Spare parts are already hard to find for a lot of things that are normally ordered "just in time" from China. Not to mention raw feed-stocks. And localized production just can't ramp up that fast if at all--the lead time on retooling a factory is months, if not years.
I'm guessing people will just start openly defying any such lock down order and go back to some semblance of "normal" life in large chunks of the world after a relatively short time. A paycheck or so. Maybe 2. So 2-4 weeks. Max. Is that enough to stem the virus? Dunno. But much longer and we're looking at much larger effects from the ensuing economic mess than from the sheer human casualties would suggest. Maybe I'm a pessimist.
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@Benjamin-Hall FWIW here all bills, tax payments, and I think mortgage/loan payments are suspended. Rent isn't as of today but regulations only allow eviction after so many months of unpaid rent, so it's a bit more flexible there (and there will probably be a decree to make it temporarily even more flexible). Probably there will be aid to small companies and freelance workers, while large companies can request "cassa integrazione", which is basically a temporary redundancy scheme where employees work less (or nothing at all) and are paid, I think, around 70% of their salary, and the government covers part of the salary. (They have something similar in France too, as @remi will attest). Of course this means a huge hit to the economy, but at the same time, it's hitting all sectors of society so it should be more manageable. We'll all have to tighten our belts as if there were an actual war.
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@Benjamin-Hall yes, surely service industries like restaurants etc. that just close down or simply have fewer customers will be hit very hard.
We, too, will enact short-time allowance (that’s what the dictionary calls it), but that only goes so far. For other industries, I think instead of purely throwing money at it it’d be beneficial to have large funds for public research. In that way, when you still have workers available (e.g. home office) but they’re idling due to general lack of orders, they can do R&D instead.To help the service industry a bit, I just went to a half empty restaurant and got some nice boar stew with cranberries (kneeling optional) for two.
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Here in Argentina the government finally grew some sense and classes are suspended until March 31st and non-resident foreigners can't enter Argentina until that date as well. However, the school diners that feed poor children will still be open. Also, people 65 and up don't have to go to work.
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Dr. Lipkin told Francis that “we could have treatments in four weeks that could begin to save lives.”
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@CarrieVS said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@Benjamin-Hall Both of my D&D groups are preparing for the possibility of playing online if things get worse here.
My group is already online, so it makes no difference to us.
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@Dragoon said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
Hey? Watch who you are calling a geek. Some of us are just introverts, no need to get nasty about it.
Being called a geek is not an insult!
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@Polygeekery said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
rinsing the outside of the gloves with IPA
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@topspin said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@Polygeekery said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@acrow said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
kids 7yo+ can survive a few hours on their own.
You've not met my eight year old. I love the boy, but if I left him alone for longer than it takes to walk to the mailbox and back I would come home to a crater and heartbreak.
Have you tried this new thing called parenting?
I’m joking.
Yes, but he hired @Polygeekery to babysit too many times, and the boy picked up some bad habits. And close your tags!
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@HardwareGeek said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@Polygeekery said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
rinsing the outside of the gloves with IPA
Rinsing gloves is about the only thing that particular beer might be good for. But no. Different IPA.
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@Gurth said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
Since the plan was floated the other week to make English a fourth official language
Funny, I haven't heard a whisper about that. Very, very unlikely. In the Flemish side there is plenty of knowledge of English but little interest in weakening the status of Dutch, something that took us long enough to establish.
In the south the knowledge of English is lacking but I could see there that they are seeking to strengthen this knowledge but making it an official language? This would manly entail useless practicalities. Like, translating the constitution and publishing some laws in all languages and having politicians representing the English language group of the country.
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@PleegWat said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
Well, the B******s are getting their desire:
hey, you are just copying our rules!
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@HardwareGeek said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@Dragoon said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
Hey? Watch who you are calling a geek. Some of us are just introverts, no need to get nasty about it.
Being called a geek is not an insult!
This sounds just like pointing out Star Trek and Star Wars fans.
Which one is insulting to whom depends entirely on which group they identify themselves to be in.
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@acrow said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@HardwareGeek said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@Dragoon said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
Hey? Watch who you are calling a geek. Some of us are just introverts, no need to get nasty about it.
Being called a geek is not an insult!
This sounds just like pointing out Star Trek and Star Wars fans.
Which one is insulting to whom depends entirely on which group they identify themselves to be in.Nah, I think it's more like "Trekkie or Trekker?".
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Cruise ship from Brazil carrying 2000 people denied disembarkment in Lisbon.
So what do they do? They travel some 500 km to neighbouring Spain, disembark, then travel back here on 90 buses.
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@Zecc effective!
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Amazon Drops The Hammer On Coronavirus Price-Gouging Couple
Amazon has come down on a couple who have been bragging about making a fortune off the coronavirus by selling cleaning items at highly inflated prices. “A Vancouver couple who’ve spent the last few weeks cleaning out Costco store shelves of Lysol cleaning products and reselling them at higher...
Reached by phone Friday, Ranga said he objected to the way he and his wife were portrayed in the story and that the fallout was potentially jeopardizing their livelihoods.
And another case:
Now [...] Mr. Colvin is sitting on 17,700 bottles of the stuff with little idea where to sell them.
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@Benjamin-Hall said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@admiral_p That answers part of it, but what's going to happen when people just plain run out of money for food? I'm very very lucky that I'm on salary and can (sort of) work from home doing online classes. But a large chunk of the economy (especially the bottom half) can't, just by the nature of the thing. And if everyone's staying home, that means no one's building buildings (construction workers), eating at restaurants/visiting clubs (most of entertainment/food service), getting haircuts, etc. Those businesses won't survive that long, and less if they try to pay their idled workers. And that doesn't pay rent--even assuming that no eviction are allowed (reasonable), you're looking at the landlords having a money crunch if their expenses keep up (and are probably more expensive due to restrictions) but the rent doesn't.
And if international shipping stops, that disrupts a lot of things entirely. Spare parts are already hard to find for a lot of things that are normally ordered "just in time" from China. Not to mention raw feed-stocks. And localized production just can't ramp up that fast if at all--the lead time on retooling a factory is months, if not years.
I'm guessing people will just start openly defying any such lock down order and go back to some semblance of "normal" life in large chunks of the world after a relatively short time. A paycheck or so. Maybe 2. So 2-4 weeks. Max. Is that enough to stem the virus? Dunno. But much longer and we're looking at much larger effects from the ensuing economic mess than from the sheer human casualties would suggest. Maybe I'm a pessimist.
Over here there's some noise about such concerns, but I'm not seeing a lot. People are urged to continue paying as normal (including for things like child care, if their right to receive it has been suspended). Large companies may not be able to pay wages, but there are existing mechanisms for it. For the self-employed, the fact there's a problem is known. I expect there will be a relief decision some time this week - national budget restrictions are the last thing on anyone's mind right now.
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@PleegWat here in Italy there were some concerns about loss of income at first, but the people are mostly complying now. Many businesses were late to close, also because of the novelty of the situation and a certain vagueness of the decree (meaning that, if you really wanted to, and looked at it from just about the right angle, then your business was not included among the ones that had to close). But social pressure and simple fear soon did the rest. After all, "la salute prima di tutto" (health first and foremost).
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@Polygeekery said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@HardwareGeek said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@Polygeekery said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
rinsing the outside of the gloves with IPA
Rinsing gloves is about the only thing that particular beer might be good for.
PistolsKnives at dawn.
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@PleegWat
In
there is a thing called 'economic unemployment' where normally companies can temporarily sent workers home due to certain circumstances (e.g. it's freezing and too cold to do construction work). Companies still pay employees but at a deducted rate, government adds a bit on top for the employee. Biggest thing is, if I remember correctly, is that taxes and social security contributions for the employer are reduced. This has been explicitly called applicable to the current situation. So employees who can't work are covered for.
Self-employed or business owners that are forced to shut down can apply for a compensation. All business can apply for extensions on their social security and other tax advances.
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@PleegWat said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@Gurth said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
a fourth official language
Three isn't enough?
Apparently not, according to Open VLD.
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@MrL said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
PistolsKnives at dawn.I don't have anything against IPAs in general. Some of my favorite beers are IPAs. But Lagunitas IPA is atrocious.
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