Linux locks and a kinder, gentler Linus
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@levicki said in Linux locks and a kinder, gentler Linus:
@boomzilla said in Linux locks and a kinder, gentler Linus:
Which says nothing about the fact that it actually performs just fine. I dunno...perhaps there was a time when the minutiae of the scheduler mattered in a noticeable way for a desktop experience. That's not today.
I disagree. Try using Linux for DAW and let me know how it goes. Without at least changing the default scheduler you won't get far even if you are a guru who knows how to set up the Linux audio stack.
Ignoring that I have no idea if what you said is true or not, that seems like a rather niche professional use case, not the average "desktop experience" that was talked about.
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@dkf said in Linux locks and a kinder, gentler Linus:
Security isn't a feature that most buyers of IoT devices look for. It is therefore mostly not done at all or only done badly. If nobody will pay extra for it and stuff without it sells, why would anyone bother?
So basically, security pollution?
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@dkf said in Linux locks and a kinder, gentler Linus:
@Mason_Wheeler said in Linux locks and a kinder, gentler Linus:
The reason IoT is a massive dumpster fire of security holes is because they're almost universally running on Linux, which has never taken security seriously.
Most IoT security is shit because it is made for least cost by someone who doesn't care other than to get the money (yours or VC, it doesn't matter). Security isn't a feature that most buyers of IoT devices look for. It is therefore mostly not done at all or only done badly. If nobody will pay extra for it and stuff without it sells, why would anyone bother?
The devices could run Windows, except then they'd cost quite a lot more and the market is definitely price sensitive. See above.
Also, "they have
telnetSSH configured withadmin:password" is hardly a Linux problem.
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@topspin It would totally be more secure if it was RDP and
Administrator:Password!
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@dkf said in Linux locks and a kinder, gentler Linus:
@topspin It would totally be more secure if it was RDP and
Administrator:Password!
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@levicki said in Linux locks and a kinder, gentler Linus:
@boomzilla said in Linux locks and a kinder, gentler Linus:
:sigh: Is DAW anything like CP? I have no idea what you're talking about, either, unfortunately, but that's just down to unfamiliar acronyms, not shoulder aliens.
Digital Audio Workstation?
What does that mean you're doing? Like, a recording studio?
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@boomzilla said in Linux locks and a kinder, gentler Linus:
His arguments reminds of the sorts of things I have to explain to people. Different domain, of course, but basically shooting down their simplified view of things and explaining why their seemingly obvious plan is doomed to fail.
Usually it's "This boat has holes in it, let's jump out into the shark infested waters."
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@boomzilla said in Linux locks and a kinder, gentler Linus:
@dkf said in Linux locks and a kinder, gentler Linus:
@topspin It would totally be more secure if it was RDP and
Administrator:Password!I'm starting to believe this isn't a toy and just a series of images that you're rendering text on.
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@xaade said in Linux locks and a kinder, gentler Linus:
@boomzilla said in Linux locks and a kinder, gentler Linus:
@dkf said in Linux locks and a kinder, gentler Linus:
@topspin It would totally be more secure if it was RDP and
Administrator:Password!I'm starting to believe this isn't a toy and just a series of images that you're rendering text on.
What does the kneeling razor tell you is more likely?
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@boomzilla said in Linux locks and a kinder, gentler Linus:
@xaade said in Linux locks and a kinder, gentler Linus:
@boomzilla said in Linux locks and a kinder, gentler Linus:
@dkf said in Linux locks and a kinder, gentler Linus:
@topspin It would totally be more secure if it was RDP and
Administrator:Password!I'm starting to believe this isn't a toy and just a series of images that you're rendering text on.
What does the kneeling razor tell you is more likely?
There's no insurmountable amount of work involved if you just have @error write a bot module to do it. Well, not for you at least.
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@boomzilla said in Linux locks and a kinder, gentler Linus:
@xaade said in Linux locks and a kinder, gentler Linus:
@boomzilla said in Linux locks and a kinder, gentler Linus:
@dkf said in Linux locks and a kinder, gentler Linus:
@topspin It would totally be more secure if it was RDP and
Administrator:Password!I'm starting to believe this isn't a toy and just a series of images that you're rendering text on.
What does the kneeling razor tell you is more likely?
- There's a program you didn't write that took a bunch of images of D20 on a desk, you're typing in one phrase and it makes the image. As in the only thing you do is type something and it copies an image to your clipboard. Or better yet, it's giving you one at random.
- You're bothering to actually roll a dice IRL and take a photo, and upload that photo to the internet.
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@levicki said in Linux locks and a kinder, gentler Linus:
@boomzilla said in Linux locks and a kinder, gentler Linus:
What does that mean you're doing? Like, a recording studio?
Yes, see edit.
OK, yeah...in situations where no latency is very important...I'd think using a desktop OS would be risky. That's where you'd want a real time system, right?
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@boomzilla Where did you buy this dice and do they ship to Europe?
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@dfdub said in Linux locks and a kinder, gentler Linus:
@boomzilla Where did you buy this dice and do they ship to Europe?
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@boomzilla said in The Official Funny Stuff Thread™:
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$21 with shipping.
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@topspin said in Linux locks and a kinder, gentler Linus:
@boomzilla said in Linux locks and a kinder, gentler Linus:
@xaade said in Linux locks and a kinder, gentler Linus:
@boomzilla said in Linux locks and a kinder, gentler Linus:
@dkf said in Linux locks and a kinder, gentler Linus:
@topspin It would totally be more secure if it was RDP and
Administrator:Password!I'm starting to believe this isn't a toy and just a series of images that you're rendering text on.
What does the kneeling razor tell you is more likely?
There's no insurmountable amount of work involved if you just have @error write a bot module to do it. Well, not for you at least.
I'm willing to write some kind of magic 8-ball/d12 module.
Just printing the results is boring. I'll render it in 3d.
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@levicki said in Linux locks and a kinder, gentler Linus:
@boomzilla said in Linux locks and a kinder, gentler Linus:
OK, yeah...in situations where no latency is very important...I'd think using a desktop OS would be risky. That's where you'd want a real time system, right?
Windows does just fine for that purpose, and so does mac OS.
Glad to hear that they're good for something then.
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@boomzilla said in Linux locks and a kinder, gentler Linus:
@Vixen said in Linux locks and a kinder, gentler Linus:
@izzion said in Linux locks and a kinder, gentler Linus:
that's..... surprisingly calm and rational response from him...
His arguments reminds of the sorts of things I have to explain to people. Different domain, of course, but basically shooting down their simplified view of things and explaining why their seemingly obvious plan is doomed to fail.
@error_bot xkcd revolutionary
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@boomzilla said in Linux locks and a kinder, gentler Linus:
@levicki said in Linux locks and a kinder, gentler Linus:
@boomzilla said in Linux locks and a kinder, gentler Linus:
OK, yeah...in situations where no latency is very important...I'd think using a desktop OS would be risky. That's where you'd want a real time system, right?
Windows does just fine for that purpose, and so does mac OS.
Glad to hear that they're good for something then.
Games and video/audio mixing, respectively. Nice to see the stereotypes work out.
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@dkf said in Linux locks and a kinder, gentler Linus:
@acrow said in Linux locks and a kinder, gentler Linus:
Speaking of EOL-7. I'll push Ubuntu Linux on an unsuspecting grandma later this month. Let's see how long it'll take before she coughs up which SkypeJavaSyphillis she actually needs installed, in addition to "just a bit of e-mail and banking". And then I'll cough up for that Win10 license for her.
Get her a tablet or chromebook. Except for people actively creating a lot of content, such devices are entirely adequate.
Paving over her current laptop with Linux is cheaper, while Ubuntu specifically is just about as usable for seniors as most android tablets.
If I might have to spring for the Win10 license down the road anyway, I'd rather start with the cheap options.
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@Vixen said in Linux locks and a kinder, gentler Linus:
@Tsaukpaetra said in Linux locks and a kinder, gentler Linus:
any guarantees the Windows Scheduler makes.
according to Raymond Chen...... it doesn't make any promises above and beyond running your threads in as efficeint a manner as it can figure out.
he's also be annoyed that the game developers did shit like this instead of just doing the right thing.
he's be just as acerbic as Tovalds, but much less...... pyrotechnic.
The thing about game development (especially the bleeding edge development like those working on Stadia) is that even today in the world of teraflops in every person's pocket, there's never enough performance, and the correctness of result is unimportant enough that it totally makes sense to cut as many corners as possible to squeeze those few extra frames. Their work is only going to make money for a few months, it doesn't matter what happens with it in the future. When things change, all incompatibilities are blamed on the thing that changed, not the part that did the wrong thing. There's literally zero incentives not to do this. The only thing you have to watch out for is that your code must not crash, but then again, that also is more of a guideline than actual rule.
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@Mason_Wheeler said in Linux locks and a kinder, gentler Linus:
@dkf said in Linux locks and a kinder, gentler Linus:
Security isn't a feature that most buyers of IoT devices look for. It is therefore mostly not done at all or only done badly. If nobody will pay extra for it and stuff without it sells, why would anyone bother?
So basically, security pollution?
Let me put it this way.
All the IoT are using the same Linux 1.6 image from 1999 with password-less telnet pre-configured. And if they weren't, then they would be using Windows 95/CE with remote administration enabled. And the admin password would still be "0000" or "admin", as it is now. Can you really blame Linux in this situation?
Also. The actual OS used matters noticeably less than the fact that it's more than a decade out-of-date when it gets out the factory door. And the out-of-date OS also matters very little when the application on it has a wide open front door.
Not that Linux would in any way be less secure than Windows. As modern OSes go, they would be roughly equal if Windows didn't constantly compromise security for small speed gains, like rendering fonts in the kernel.
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@acrow said in Linux locks and a kinder, gentler Linus:
@dkf said in Linux locks and a kinder, gentler Linus:
@acrow said in Linux locks and a kinder, gentler Linus:
Speaking of EOL-7. I'll push Ubuntu Linux on an unsuspecting grandma later this month. Let's see how long it'll take before she coughs up which SkypeJavaSyphillis she actually needs installed, in addition to "just a bit of e-mail and banking". And then I'll cough up for that Win10 license for her.
Get her a tablet or chromebook. Except for people actively creating a lot of content, such devices are entirely adequate.
Paving over her current laptop with Linux is cheaper, while Ubuntu specifically is just about as usable for seniors as most android tablets.
If I might have to spring for the Win10 license down the road anyway, I'd rather start with the cheap options.I think it's still possible to get a free windows 10 upgrade. This link's just an arbitrary Google search result, but the content does match what I've heard
How to download Windows 10 for free | Digital Trends
As Microsoft removes support for Windows 7, Windows 10 will ensure that you're not open to security issues. Here's how to get Windows 10 for free.
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@Buddy Ubuntu's still easier.
It's a bit like these days; if it works, then it will Just Work (tm). If it doesn't, then I can always try to get the free Windows 10 license. But most importantly, the Ubuntu installation is very low-effort, and
is strong.
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@dkf said in Linux locks and a kinder, gentler Linus:
The devices could run Windows, except then they'd cost quite a lot more and the market is definitely price sensitive. See above.
I once built a Windows PE image for display signage. Had Wifi, Ethernet, Chrome, and a few other things. I wonder what its attack surface was...
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@levicki said in Linux locks and a kinder, gentler Linus:
Try using Linux for DAW
If I have to google an acronym, as a common desktop user you have already failed.
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@levicki said in Linux locks and a kinder, gentler Linus:
@boomzilla said in Linux locks and a kinder, gentler Linus:
What does that mean you're doing? Like, a recording studio?
Yes, see edit.
The Real Audio Engineers don't use "computers" in that case. But, you'd know that, since you're using the term "DAW" to move the goal posts.
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@levicki said in Linux locks and a kinder, gentler Linus:
@boomzilla said in Linux locks and a kinder, gentler Linus:
OK, yeah...in situations where no latency is very important...I'd think using a desktop OS would be risky. That's where you'd want a real time system, right?
Windows does just fine for that purpose, and so does mac OS.
False. Almost every single audio playing program has a minimum of 20ms delay unless directly driven. More if it's "protected". Even more if you're capturing audio and then trying to play it back in real time.
I know this because I spent months trying to figure out why there was a nearly half second delay in an echo test where all I did was literally pipe raw wave samples from the microphone straight to the output, and there was nothing I could do short of interfacing with the sound card directly to improve it.
"Oh but if there's a delay, why doesn't anyone complain about it?" I hear your aliens ask.
Well that's because sophisticated trickery (such as buffering and syncing) makes it so the delay is consistent between (for example) video and audio. But you'd know that, seeing as you're talking about schedulers that have no guarantees of when things get scheduled.
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@Gąska said in Linux locks and a kinder, gentler Linus:
@Vixen said in Linux locks and a kinder, gentler Linus:
@Tsaukpaetra said in Linux locks and a kinder, gentler Linus:
any guarantees the Windows Scheduler makes.
according to Raymond Chen...... it doesn't make any promises above and beyond running your threads in as efficeint a manner as it can figure out.
he's also be annoyed that the game developers did shit like this instead of just doing the right thing.
he's be just as acerbic as Tovalds, but much less...... pyrotechnic.
The thing about game development (especially the bleeding edge development like those working on Stadia) is that even today in the world of teraflops in every person's pocket, there's never enough performance, and the correctness of result is unimportant enough that it totally makes sense to cut as many corners as possible to squeeze those few extra frames. Their work is only going to make money for a few months, it doesn't matter what happens with it in the future. When things change, all incompatibilities are blamed on the thing that changed, not the part that did the wrong thing. There's literally zero incentives not to do this. The only thing you have to watch out for is that your code must not crash, but then again, that also is more of a guideline than actual rule.
Speaking of, with the latest engine upgrade a few "special things" not-my-code is doing is officially deprecated, so I'll have to go and fix that before the next release...
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@Tsaukpaetra Digital sound mixing became a thing when all those gigaflops got a lot cheaper than the dedicated mixing hardware. It is actually being done.
Especially when you're mixing 60+ channels at once, like in a live concert.
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@acrow said in Linux locks and a kinder, gentler Linus:
@Tsaukpaetra Digital sound mixing became a thing when all those gigaflops got a lot cheaper than the dedicated mixing hardware. It is actually being done.
Especially when you're mixing 60+ channels at once, like in a live concert.Sure, but for applications such as those you're going to be using highly customized software out the gate at the bare minium.
This conversation has been about "Linux on the laypersons' Desktop", not "Linux on the super-specialized machine that requires fidgeting schedulers and memory managers and whatever to eke out the best latency-driven performance ever".
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@Tsaukpaetra Yes and no. Software mixing is most cost-effective if you can use a generic desktop OS. As such, several implementations run on plain Windows. Also, latency is not that critical, as long as jitter is kept to a strict minimum.
On an open-air stage, the speed of sound through the air dominates sound lag anyways, so a bit more goes unnoticed. And in a studio environment lag is inconsequential, as stated. Same for live broadcasting.
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@acrow said in Linux locks and a kinder, gentler Linus:
as long as jitter is kept to a strict minimum.
And jitter shouldn't really happen because the sound cards have a buffer, right?
So, all this talk about "OMG Schedulers rawr DAW bads!" is basically inconsequential, right?
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@Tsaukpaetra said in Linux locks and a kinder, gentler Linus:
@acrow said in Linux locks and a kinder, gentler Linus:
as long as jitter is kept to a strict minimum.
And jitter shouldn't really happen because the sound cards have a buffer, right?
Most sound cards have a buffer, I assume, yes. For a few (to tens of) milliseconds. The kind of cards used for this kind of work definitely do.
So, all this talk about "OMG Schedulers rawr DAW bads!" is basically inconsequential, right?
Short answer: Yes.
Long answer: As long as the scheduler (or the processes it manages) doesn't introduce, like, 100ms-1000ms of random delay. Which wasn't unheard of in the days of single-core PCs. But that's history now, I guess.
Roughly the same standard as can be applied to computer gaming. And I've been playing games on a Linux laptop (in a pinch) for a while now, so...
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@acrow So... if the critical bit of software has a dedicated core (easy enough these days) then it can get really excellent time control on all operating systems? :you_dont_say:
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@Vixen said in Linux locks and a kinder, gentler Linus:
he's be just as acerbic as Tovalds, but much less...... pyrotechnic.
Less pyrothechnic? What happened to "the social skills of a thermonuclear device"?
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@acrow Wasn't that written in the single-core days? In those days, if you didn't yield in your spinlock, you'd spend the rest of your scheduling quantum wasting CPU time.
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@dkf While true, I didn't imply that. I'm not sure if the people writing audio software are savvy enough to dedicate a core. Specialist software tends to be written by people other than software engineers.
The main reason multi-core makes shit faster than equivalent flops on single-core is that idiotically (mis-)implemented spinlocks can't stop execution entirely (as long as you have more cores than home-baked spinlocks).
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@Medinoc said in Linux locks and a kinder, gentler Linus:
@acrow Wasn't that written in the single-core days? In those days, if you didn't yield in your spinlock, you'd spend the rest of your scheduling quantum wasting CPU time.
Yes. but in Windows delay(0)/sleep(0)/whatever always yields (apparently), and places you at the end of the run-queue (for the priority level).
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@dkf said in Linux locks and a kinder, gentler Linus:
@Mason_Wheeler said in Linux locks and a kinder, gentler Linus:
The reason IoT is a massive dumpster fire of security holes is because they're almost universally running on Linux, which has never taken security seriously.
Most IoT security is shit because it is made for least cost by someone who doesn't care other than to get the money (yours or VC, it doesn't matter). Security isn't a feature that most buyers of IoT devices look for. It is therefore mostly not done at all or only done badly. If nobody will pay extra for it and stuff without it sells, why would anyone bother?
The devices could run Windows, except then they'd cost quite a lot more and the market is definitely price sensitive. See above.
ATMs are an instructive example of the few IoTish devices that run Windows. They're also a pretty extreme example in that they're not cheap mass-market devices, buyers are usually not completely clueless, security has always been very much an issue in their design, plus they tend to live in an environment that makes it relatively hard to fuck around with them—isolated networks and CCTV all over the place.
So how do you pwn an ATM? Most common method: drill an inconspicuous hole where the USB ports are, stick a combined mouse/mass-storage device in, and click away to your heart's content. Works just fine because Windows always brings the whole kitchen sink of drivers, software installation infrastructure, even a fucking browser, it's all preinstalled. Theoretically it would be possible to disable most of that, but it's an arcane art that even most Windows admins have to look up in Microsoft's dungeon of broken links that's called a "Knowledge Base". On Linux, it's common knowledge not to add shit you don't need like drivers or, Linus forbid, a package manager to an embedded image, and it's mostly straightforward.
If the manufacturer added software of its own (very likely, like drivers for the cash dispenser), the quality is usually shit and can be exploited over the network. I've seen plenty of ATMs that run a VPN via a GSM router that has just been jammed into the same cabinet, so plugging in there works as well.
That the vast majority of ATMs still run unsupported (and often even pirated) Windows XP doesn't even matter much in this state of affairs.
So that's about the most secure you could expect from Windows IoS devices—all the cheap router/camera/fridge/whatever shit, in as far as it would even exist with license costs being what they are, would all be downhill from there.
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@LaoC said in Linux locks and a kinder, gentler Linus:
Theoretically it would be possible to disable most of that, but it's an arcane art that even most Windows admins have to look up in Microsoft's dungeon of broken links that's called a "Knowledge Base".
I do this all the time! 
Edit: And, contrary to popular belief, it's far easier to start with nothing and add shit in (using Windows PE) than it is to remove shit from a full installation.
It's just too bad MS doesn't want you using Windows PE in production environments, it's a really nice environment comparable to Linux's "Live" solutions.
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@Gąska said in Linux locks and a kinder, gentler Linus:
The only thing you have to watch out for is that your code must not crash,
you mean like all the games that stopped working on PC, and Console this year when the year changed to 2020? that kind of not crashing?
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@Vixen will people ever learn to read full sentences?
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@Tsaukpaetra said in Linux locks and a kinder, gentler Linus:
@LaoC said in Linux locks and a kinder, gentler Linus:
Theoretically it would be possible to disable most of that, but it's an arcane art that even most Windows admins have to look up in Microsoft's dungeon of broken links that's called a "Knowledge Base".
I do this all the time! Edit: And, contrary to popular belief, it's far easier to start with nothing and add shit in (using Windows PE) than it is to remove shit from a full installation.
It's just too bad MS doesn't want you using Windows PE in production environments, it's a really nice environment comparable to Linux's "Live" solutions.
Just to make sure I understood that right, are you talking about the Preinstallation Environment? As in:
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@Vixen said in Linux locks and a kinder, gentler Linus:
all
I'd heard of one. Were there several? And was there a common factor?
@Gąska said in Linux locks and a kinder, gentler Linus:
@Vixen will people ever learn to read full sentences?
Of course not. That's not how brains work.
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@Gąska said in Linux locks and a kinder, gentler Linus:
@Vixen will people ever learn to read full sentences?
hmmmmmmmmmmm
No? at least not based on the evidence on display by the denizens herabouts.
@acrow said in Linux locks and a kinder, gentler Linus:
@Vixen said in Linux locks and a kinder, gentler Linus:
all
I'd heard of one. Were there several? And was there a common factor?
yeah. It looks like the ones affected were all using the same DRM that for some reason had a Y2k20 bug, despite being released at a time where the game was expected to be played post 2019
course none of the game publishers will admit that, but the common factor in all the affected games is they use the same DRM provider....
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@Mason_Wheeler said in Linux locks and a kinder, gentler Linus:
The perpetual predictions that "this year will be the year of the Linux desktop"
TBF, have there been serious predictions of that in the last 10 years or so? Mostly what I see is people saying it as a pisstake of the straw man Linux nerd stereotype
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@error said in Linux locks and a kinder, gentler Linus:
xkcd revolutionary
It took me a while to figure out why a rocket shooting a rocket shooting a rocket can't go over the speed of light.
Then I learned about calculus, and learned that with floating point numbers there's always more room for a yet smaller increment. Then the final nail in the coffin was that, because of general relativity, each smaller increment could appear as a flat increase in speed to the previous rocket.
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@xaade said in Linux locks and a kinder, gentler Linus:
@error said in Linux locks and a kinder, gentler Linus:
xkcd revolutionary
It took me a while to figure out why a rocket shooting a rocket shooting a rocket can't go over the speed of light.
Then I learned about calculus, and learned that with floating point numbers there's always more room for a yet smaller increment. Then the final nail in the coffin was that, because of general relativity, each smaller increment could appear as a flat increase in speed to the previous rocket.
Also the fiddly nature of time. And space.
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@xaade said in Linux locks and a kinder, gentler Linus:
@error said in Linux locks and a kinder, gentler Linus:
xkcd revolutionary
It took me a while to figure out why a rocket shooting a rocket shooting a rocket can't go over the speed of light.
Then I learned about calculus, and learned that with floating point numbers there's always more room for a yet smaller increment. Then the final nail in the coffin was that, because of general relativity, each smaller increment could appear as a flat increase in speed to the previous rocket.
Special relativity. Not general. General is all about gravity.
Linux Hardware Reviews & Performance Benchmarks, Open-Source News
675: Revolutionary - explain xkcd
Windows Preinstallation Environment - Wikipedia
