Dear Aer Lingus...
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I was unfortunate enough to be on your delayed flight EI937 from Heathrow to Belfast City on 19/7/19, so am writing to complain about the delay itself, the way you made the delay worse, and the way you treated your passengers. I fly twice a week and have very low expectations of airlines, generally putting up with the whole awful experience that you all offer without complaining. That Aer Lingus have managed to do so much so badly in just one flight that I am prompted to write this letter is some sort of perverse achievement.
Firstly, as you are aware, since arrival at Belfast City was over six hours late, I am entitled to compensation under EU regulation 261. Please arrange that promptly. [....]
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@PJH
Sounds like they're trying very hard to be the European United.
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@PJH said in Dear Aer Lingus...:
compensation under EU regulation
I can't wait until Brexit happens and airlines operating in the UK are no longer bound by such tyrannical regulations.
At least with an EU-based airline he has a reasonable chance to get that compensation. I'm still waiting for the same from a non-EU company I flew with several months ago. I think it will have to end up in courts, there are lawyers handling that for you for a share of the compensation (you still get some money, and it's no work for the lawyers since the case is opened-and-closed, the airline is just dragging their feet to avoid paying if they can).
Nice story. The kicker to me is the unannounced diversion to a different country (Belfast), and the fact that indeed some people might not have had the right to go there (unlikely in practice, but they cannot afford to guess)! Unfortunately it's all too familiar, and the evolution of low-cost flying has proven that no, people are not really ready to pay a bit more to get better service.
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I had a pretty bizarre experience with a low-cost airline company too (Vueling).
The plane, which was supposed to leave mid-afternoon, had some technical problem and our flight was delayed... OK, accidents happen I guess.
But then they had us waiting until late evening in the airport with zero information. There was no staff from that company at the airport, the airport staff apparently didn't know much either. Then finally they gave us some taxi and hotel vouchers and told us to be back there at 7 AM the next day... and guess what... the next day they had us waiting until mid-afternoon again in the goddamn airport.
If they had told us, "sorry, plane's been delayed 24 hours, come back here tomorrow at 3PM", we'd at least have had a day to spend doing anything else other than waiting in the damn terminal. But no, finding replacement airplanes is hard, better keep the passengers around in case there's an opportunity I guess?
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@anonymous234 said in Dear Aer Lingus...:
I had a pretty bizarre experience with a low-cost airline company too (Vueling).
The plane, which was supposed to leave mid-afternoon, had some technical problem and our flight was delayed... OK, accidents happen I guess.
But then they had us waiting until late evening in the airport with zero information. There was no staff from that company at the airport, the airport staff apparently didn't know much either. Then finally they gave us some taxi and hotel vouchers and told us to be back there at 7 AM the next day... and guess what... the next day they had us waiting until mid-afternoon again in the goddamn airport.
If they had told us, "sorry, plane's been delayed 24 hours, come back here tomorrow at 3PM", we'd at least have had a day to spend doing anything else other than waiting in the damn terminal. But no, finding replacement airplanes is hard, better keep the passengers around in case there's an opportunity I guess?
The only time I've had a bad delay was the weekend after 9/11. I was in Honolulu (for a conference, dammit, not a vacation!), and the flight was supposed to leave at 10:45pm. Of course, the plane itself had been grounded in Sydney (Australia, duh), and didn't finally leave Honolulu until about 5am the next morning.
'Course arriving at Toronto having missed my flight on to London was a bit stressful. I had two hours from touch-down to take-off to get my luggage, check in for the alternative onward flight, and get on board. There were several hundred people in line ahead of me to check in.
Oops.
Well, it got worse.
Suddenly there was this Air Canada dude looking for people who had been re-booked onto that flight. I stuck up my hand, "Me!!!!!!!!!" and he directed me to proceed immediately to that check-in counter there. Er. In front of all those hundreds of people who had been queueing for hours.
Er. Um. How to express it?
Wearing one of those delicately coloured shirts you can buy in Hawaii, in front of all those hundreds of people who had been queueing for hours. (One that I had been wearing already for more than 30 hours...)
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Sounds like a shitty situation, but the guy also comes across as a prick
Last time I flew, I missed out on the compensation by 5 minutes. The plane arrived 2 hours and 54 minutes late
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@Jaloopa said in Dear Aer Lingus...:
Last time I flew, I missed out on the compensation by 5 minutes. The plane arrived 2 hours and 54 minutes late
Train company here is notorious for playing with that (well, I've never heard it say even semi-officially, but everyone has experienced it). They start compensating you from 30 min delays on arrival, and when your train leaves the station with 30-35 min delay, you can be sure that their official timing screens will show it arriving with a 29 min delay. I mean, sure, they can probably go a bit faster and catch up some of their delay, but how come when they are 20 or 50 min late on departure, they are 20 or 50 min late on arrival (so no catching up), and it juuuuust so happens that when they are 35 min late they manage to catch up juuuuust enough to be under 30 min.
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@remi Speak for yourself. If I have a choise of airlines to use to use, I'll suffer a 2 hour delay or €100 extra to use one of the better ones, like KLM. The real problem is that airlines buy flights from each other, so you can't always know for sure which company's plane you'll be boarding before you get to the gate.
There's Good Airlines, Cheap Airlines, and Pretender Airlines, with the last category being the worst, as they charge you more and provide worse service. (Why, yes, I do have some grudges towards Finnair, not least because they only pay compensation if taken to court over it.)
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@acrow said in Dear Aer Lingus...:
one of the better ones, like KLM
I virtually always fly with them, mainly for the sake of convenience. From my local airport, the choices are KLM, BA or a cheap-ass airline. Of the cheap-ass airlines, Ryanair are the most cheap-ass of the lot, specializing in emphasising the “ass” part of that equation…
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@acrow said in Dear Aer Lingus...:
Speak for yourself. If I have a choise of airlines to use to use, I'll suffer a 2 hour delay or €100 extra to use one of the better ones
Well that's the thing. The success of low-cost airlines, and the failure of most airlines who don't adopt this model, clearly shows that I'm not speaking for myself when I said that (btw, it would have helped if you quoted the relevant bit, especially since your answer happens to be just below another of my posts!), I am just telling what the majority of people actually do. Not what they say they might like or might do, but where they actually spend their money.
Whether you like or not is irrelevant, the facts are that most people simply don't value enough the "better ones" to pay more for them than low-cost ones.
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@acrow said in Dear Aer Lingus...:
they only pay compensation if taken to court over it
Perhaps you could find others affected by this and take action as a class.
Filed under: Class action lawsuits are
; as I understand it the law firm will make millions and the average plaintiff will receive $10-$50.
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@error said in Dear Aer Lingus...:
as I understand it the law firm will make millions and the average plaintiff will receive $10-$50.
I got notified I was eligible for that Equifax class-action lawsuit and I could receive $150 because my credit history was affected. I went to sign up for the payout, and I can only be paid if I buy and pay for additional credit monitoring.
Guess they found a way to achieve a net-zero sum on that payout.
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@mott555 said in Dear Aer Lingus...:
@error said in Dear Aer Lingus...:
as I understand it the law firm will make millions and the average plaintiff will receive $10-$50.
I got notified I was eligible for that Equifax class-action lawsuit and I could receive $150 because my credit history was affected. I went to sign up for the payout, and I can only be paid if I buy and pay for additional credit monitoring.
Guess they found a way to achieve a net-zero sum on that payout.There was one that managed to pay out with store credit... which expired.
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@remi said in Dear Aer Lingus...:
@acrow said in Dear Aer Lingus...:
Speak for yourself. If I have a choise of airlines to use to use, I'll suffer a 2 hour delay or €100 extra to use one of the better ones
Well that's the thing. The success of low-cost airlines, and the failure of most airlines who don't adopt this model, clearly shows that I'm not speaking for myself when I said that (btw, it would have helped if you quoted the relevant bit, especially since your answer happens to be just below another of my posts!),
Sorry about that. I tried to stop over-quoting and swerved the other way.
I am just telling what the majority of people actually do. Not what they say they might like or might do, but where they actually spend their money.
I guess most people don't fly so often that they'd bother to read up, or remember their last time clearly. Or even look up a ranking page.
There are actually airline ranking pages, btw. Didn't know that before I looked it up though:
https://www.airhelp.com/en-int/airline-ranking/Whether you like or not is irrelevant,
True.
the facts are that most people simply don't value enough the "better ones" to pay more for them than low-cost ones.
Partly disagree. I think they don't know just how bad it can be while purchasing. Although it is true that they make bad decisions based on their current (lack of) information.
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@error said in Dear Aer Lingus...:
Perhaps you could find others affected by this and take action as a class.
There is no class-action system in Finland. There are a couple of law firms that collect cases an then sue as a pseudo class-action. But the court system doesn't make it easy. Every participant needs to sign and post a paper waiver (last I checked). And, for practical reasons, the companies are only interested in a uniform mass of claims; if you got routed differently than the rest of the plane (as I was, for some reason) when operations resumed, then you're out of luck.
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@mott555 All you need to do is sign up for Borrowell or Credit Karma, it counts and is free.
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I had a checking account get compromised around the same time, and I had to close it, move all my money to a new account, and update all my other accounts to use the new account.
I have no idea if it was in any way related to the breach, but I'm sure going to claim it as damages.
Edit: I'm not sure how you could ever prove causality here.
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@remi said in Dear Aer Lingus...:
@acrow said in Dear Aer Lingus...:
Speak for yourself. If I have a choise of airlines to use to use, I'll suffer a 2 hour delay or €100 extra to use one of the better ones
Well that's the thing. The success of low-cost airlines, and the failure of most airlines who don't adopt this model, clearly shows that I'm not speaking for myself when I said that (btw, it would have helped if you quoted the relevant bit, especially since your answer happens to be just below another of my posts!), I am just telling what the majority of people actually do. Not what they say they might like or might do, but where they actually spend their money.
Whether you like or not is irrelevant, the facts are that most people simply don't value enough the "better ones" to pay more for them than low-cost ones.
I think most people will just go on Flighthub or Expedia or whatever, and take the best trip from there, regardless of airline. So airlines don't have to worry so much about their reputation, because it's a small minority of customers who will actually care enough to avoid them.
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@levicki said in Dear Aer Lingus...:
@PJH
is not flying Lufthansa and then complaining about delays and bad service.Lufthansa don't fly from Heathrow to Belfast so it seems like a fairly sensible decision not to fly with them.
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@acrow said in Dear Aer Lingus...:
There are actually airline ranking pages, btw. Didn't know that before I looked it up though:
Did you actually look at their rating? United is ranked higher than Delta and Lufthansa. That's all I need to know to judge the trustworthiness of this site.
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@loopback0 not going to Belfast seems pretty sensible to me
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@remi said in Dear Aer Lingus...:
@PJH said in Dear Aer Lingus...:
compensation under EU regulation
I can't wait until Brexit happens and airlines operating in the UK are no longer bound by such tyrannical regulations.
At least with an EU-based airline he has a reasonable chance to get that compensation.
Aer Lingus is Irish, its head office is at Dublin Airport.
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@dfdub said in Dear Aer Lingus...:
@acrow said in Dear Aer Lingus...:
There are actually airline ranking pages, btw. Didn't know that before I looked it up though:
Did you actually look at their rating? United is ranked higher than Delta and Lufthansa. That's all I need to know to judge the trustworthiness of this site.
Delta is pretty awful. Unless you really like hanging out at the Atlanta airport. I've flown United a lot (that's my company's default airline) and I've found them no worse than their peers, actually. There are horror stories from every airline.
I haven't flown a European airline in decades, so I couldn't really comment. The last non-US carrier I flew was ANA, going from Washington to Tokyo...probably 15 years ago. It was a 777, but they didn't have any air nozzles!
The flight wasn't terrible, aside from that, which really sucked.
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@boomzilla said in Dear Aer Lingus...:
Delta is pretty awful. Unless you really like hanging out at the Atlanta airport. I've flown United a lot (that's my company's default airline) and I've found them no worse than their peers, actually.
My personal experience with Delta and their customer service was pretty good so far. I can't say the same about United - maybe I'll tell my stories in that thread someday. I have to admit that I don't fly with American carriers very often, though, so maybe they're awful enough to deserve that rating.
I still wonder how Lufthansa got their rating, though.
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@boomzilla said in Dear Aer Lingus...:
Delta is pretty awful. Unless you really like hanging out at the Atlanta airport.
Whenever I used to fly with Delta, it seemed to be via Detroit or Minneapolis. Detroit is OK as an airport, I guess, in part because it isn't really in the city. Minneapolis was always nighttime when I was there. And usually snowy too.
Recent flights to the US have all been direct into Houston (with KLM) so I've no experience with Delta from the past few years.
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United is the only airline I've had trouble with. I had a flight get, well, something, due to weather. Depending on whether I looked at their app, the SMS they sent me, the email they sent me, and the boards in the airport, I was either delayed, cancelled, rerouted, or everything was okay. And there was not a single United employee in the airport to answer questions because they all made themselves very scarce.
That trip ended up getting cancelled, because once I sort of figured out what had happened, they'd cancelled my flight and auto-rebooked me on a new flight out that left after my return flight.
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@dfdub said in Dear Aer Lingus...:
I still wonder how Lufthansa got their rating, though.
They've always got a zero from me, but that's for not flying to an airport that's convenient. The closest one they go to is annoyingly far away...
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@acrow said in Dear Aer Lingus...:
@error said in Dear Aer Lingus...:
Perhaps you could find others affected by this and take action as a class.
There is no class-action system in Finland. There are a couple of law firms that collect cases an then sue as a pseudo class-action. But the court system doesn't make it easy. Every participant needs to sign and post a paper waiver (last I checked). And, for practical reasons, the companies are only interested in a uniform mass of claims; if you got routed differently than the rest of the plane (as I was, for some reason) when operations resumed, then you're out of luck.
Over here in Germany we have several companies who buy your right to compensation. Basically, they ask a bunch of questions (mainly to see if you indeed qualify for compensation) and then, if positive, immediately pay out your compensation minus 10%(? I think?). They're the ones who then take the airlines to court and, due to their experience, are quite successful.
(Here's one which also speaks Finnish? https://www.airhelp.com/fi/ Not affiliated with them, merely the first search result...)
So successful in fact that airlines tried to sneak in clauses about not being able to transfer the right to compensation. Which promptly was found illegal and thus null and void.
It even made the news some weeks ago because an airline's inboard magazine's publisher contacted such a company and asked them if they wanted to advertise in this magazine? The company immediately agreed (and included a 10% voucher so they could track how successful this campaign was). They paid about 15,000€ but then gained at least double that from getting the transfer rights (i.e. the airline paid for their campaign and then some...)
The airline took them out of their magazine the next month - which promptly put them in breach of contract because the campaign was supposed to run for two months...
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@Rhywden said in Dear Aer Lingus...:
Over here in Germany we have several companies who buy your right to compensation. Basically, they ask a bunch of questions (mainly to see if you indeed qualify for compensation) and then, if positive, immediately pay out your compensation minus 10%(? I think?).
That sounds like a very American thing to do. But then, if it's only 10-20%, it also sounds like a pretty good idea iff you don't get the compensation just by telling the airline "hey, pay up".
So, I'm not quite sure what I'm trying to say here.
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@topspin Well, the percentage they're keeping might very well be worth it considering the costs on sanity and time you'd otherwise incur if the airline doesn't immediately comply.
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@Rhywden Plus, it's compensation money in the first place (so you're not losing money, just gaining a bit less), and for European flights it will often cover more than the cost of the flight itself (250 EUR at least), so it's really free money, in addition to getting a free flight. Given that most airlines at least drag their feet on paying (if they don't actively try to oppose it), I don't really mind losing a bit of that to a 3rd party that takes away all the worry of it.
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@Rhywden said in Dear Aer Lingus...:
@acrow said in Dear Aer Lingus...:
@error said in Dear Aer Lingus...:
Perhaps you could find others affected by this and take action as a class.
There is no class-action system in Finland. There are a couple of law firms that collect cases an then sue as a pseudo class-action. But the court system doesn't make it easy. Every participant needs to sign and post a paper waiver (last I checked). And, for practical reasons, the companies are only interested in a uniform mass of claims; if you got routed differently than the rest of the plane (as I was, for some reason) when operations resumed, then you're out of luck.
Over here in Germany we have several companies who buy your right to compensation. Basically, they ask a bunch of questions (mainly to see if you indeed qualify for compensation) and then, if positive, immediately pay out your compensation minus 10%(? I think?). They're the ones who then take the airlines to court and, due to their experience, are quite successful.
(Here's one which also speaks Finnish? https://www.airhelp.com/fi/ Not affiliated with them, merely the first search result...)
So successful in fact that airlines tried to sneak in clauses about not being able to transfer the right to compensation. Which promptly was found illegal and thus null and void.
It even made the news some weeks ago because an airline's inboard magazine's publisher contacted such a company and asked them if they wanted to advertise in this magazine? The company immediately agreed (and included a 10% voucher so they could track how successful this campaign was). They paid about 15,000€ but then gained at least double that from getting the transfer rights (i.e. the airline paid for their campaign and then some...)
The airline took them out of their magazine the next month - which promptly put them in breach of contract because the campaign was supposed to run for two months...Thanks. I'll have to try that next time. It's been a while since my last trip, and will be another while before the next, though, so laws may change in the meanwhile. We have a bun in the oven, and we're not going to drag it into a plane until it's old enough to talk, so...
The depressing part is that I will have to fly Finnair at some time in the future. Unless I can convince my wife that a 2-hour stop in Germany, plus a longer flight, is worth it. But that's unlikely in the extreme.
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@acrow said in Dear Aer Lingus...:
I guess most people don't fly so often that they'd bother to read up, or remember their last time clearly. Or even look up a ranking page.
True, but that's part of the choice mechanism. As @hungrier said, most people probably just pick whatever airline the search site they use offers them, without really caring about which airline it is, as long as it is the cheapest. And that's the key thing: the recent past shows us that the actual difference in quality in airlines does not really matter a lot to most people, they just go for the cheapest. This might be because people are morons, or because the difference in quality is not that much (see various posts here about how all airlines are bad to at least one person), or because most people don't fly enough to know about the differences, or whatever combination of all that, but the end fact is that price is clearly by far the first (and probably only) factor that people take into account when picking airlines.
(in fact, I might go as far as saying that price is an even higher factor than the time/duration of flights, given how many low-costs flights are flying at inconvenient midday times that end up costing you a full day... clearly people value more a bit of saving on their flight than more time spent at their destination)
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@remi It sure matters to me - if we have a choice, we always fly Virgin America. (FUCK YOU Alaskan Airlines for replacing Virgin with something far shittier)
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@pie_flavor Please read the subthread that started this, this was exactly @acrow's argument, and my point is that individuals like you are in a tiny minority that has (almost) no impact on the practice of airlines, as evidenced by the whole airline industry.
(and also, I'm pretty sure that it wouldn't be very hard to find someone who will swear that Virgin America is a shitty airline and that they do everything to avoid it, which is another thing, namely that the actual statistical difference between airlines is smaller than the variance between individual experiences of a single airline, and the overwhelming majority of people do not fly enough to personally experience that statistical average, so the perceptions are very skewed)
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@remi said in Dear Aer Lingus...:
price is clearly by far the first (and probably only) factor that people take into account when picking airlines.
And then they complain about the poor service, having to pay extra for various things, etc.
And then they do it all exactly the same again next time they fly.
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@Gurth Yes, exactly.
And they do the same for cheap shit produced in China, buying it because it's a penny cheaper than the same thing produced locally, then complain that it's shit and that it kills local jobs, before proceeding to buy even more Chinese shit.
Welcome to the real world, please leave your sanity at the door.
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@remi Or buying from webshops, then complaining that local shops selling similar things (for more money, of course) all go out of business.
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@remi I started wondering about the proportion of frequent vs. infrequently flying passengers. First google result says 12% business (which I'd consider to be frequent fliers), but business flying account for 75% of profits...?:
How Much Airline Revenue Comes From Business Travelers?
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Business travelers account for 12% of airlines' passengers, but they are typically twice as lucrative—accounting for as much as 75% of profits.
Quora from some years ago says 40% business, 50% pleasure:
What percentage of airline travel is for business vs. personal?
Answer (1 of 6): Overall, I don't know, but nowadays, personal definitely is a higher number than business. Taking a look at some data, we have: According to Percentage of Air Travel for Business vs Other Purposes, in 2001, only 40,6% of the air travel was business passengers. This was 13 years...
Of course, not all company slav-*ahem* employees get to choose their mode of transport. Also, if I read that first article is right, airlines try to retain business-business.
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@acrow I'm not sure the distinction "frequent vs. infrequent" aligns with "business vs. non-business". I mean, of course most frequent flyers are likely business flyers (very few people take the plane every week-end for fun -- there must be a few, but that's likely a tiny number), but I suspect that a lot of infrequent flyers are also business flyers. Judging by my company, there are a few managers/salesmen who fly every week or so, and then the vast majority of people who fly maybe once a year to a meeting/conference/... So they're all business flyers, but in terms of number of people, the infrequent flyers are the large majority -- and given the ratio of salesmen to normal people, I even wonder if their are not the majority in number of flights.
And of course, as you say, we don't have that much choice in airlines, we have to pick between the 2-3 that are acceptable by company standards (whatever they are...).
Also, at least in Europe (I have no idea about the US market in that regard), small-ish airports, like regional capitals or even state capitals of smaller countries, will only have a couple of flights that match your time window and destination, so often we're limited by that. I mean, unless you live close to a major airport hub like London, Paris, Amsterdam or Frankfurt, finding a flight from smaller city A to smaller city B, that does not cause you to lose a full day in travel either because of bad timing or because of having to change somewhere, severely limits your choices. When the choice is a short flight with a shitty airline, or two flights and a correspondance with a slightly less shitty one, the "correct" answer is not obvious.
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@remi you would be really hard pressed to find someone who will swear that Virgin America is a shitty airline, unless they're @blakeyrat and evaluate shittiness compared to their personal ideal rather than that of everyone else. Seriously, that's one of those nearly objective things.
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@remi said in Dear Aer Lingus...:
I'm not sure the distinction "frequent vs. infrequent" aligns with "business vs. non-business".
There's two notions: how frequently people fly (people flying for business tend to fly a lot more often) and the class of travel that people use (business class seats cost a lot more, first class — where present — even more so). Frequent business-class travellers are extremely profitable for airlines.
When the choice is a short flight with a shitty airline, or two flights and a correspondance with a slightly less shitty one, the "correct" answer is not obvious.
When I used to fly quite a bit, my choices were to change in a hub… or to change in a different hub. The super-shit airlines almost never flew where I needed to go, so were out of the running at the first hurdle.
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@dkf said in Dear Aer Lingus...:
There's two notions: how frequently people fly (people flying for business tend to fly a lot more often) and the class of travel that people use (business class seats cost a lot more, first class — where present — even more so).
And I think (but
to check in detail) that both articles cited above don't mention business class but only people travelling for business. Which is what I spoke about as well.
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@remi I know, but the only ones who know "frequent vs. infrequent" are the airlines themselves. And they're not talking. (Unless you know some sources, of course.) So I'm trying to infer the information from whatever is in public.
company standards (whatever they are...)
From personal experience, one or more of the following:
- Cheap
- Kickbacks for management
- Crappy enough that no-one volunteers for travel (keeps costs low)
YMMV
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@remi said in Dear Aer Lingus...:
@Gurth Yes, exactly.
And they do the same for cheap shit produced in China, buying it because it's a penny cheaper than the same thing produced locally, then complain that it's shit and that it kills local jobs, before proceeding to buy even more Chinese shit.
Welcome to the real world, please leave your sanity at the door.
Why buy a €200 pair of shoes, when you can buy a €50 pair of shoes ten times.
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@pie_flavor said in Dear Aer Lingus...:
@remi It sure matters to me - if we have a choice, we always fly Virgin America. (FUCK YOU Alaskan Airlines for replacing Virgin with something far shittier)
What if the United flight has a two hour layover but the Virgin one has nine hours? Or the one with your preferred airline with a short layover costs $1000 extra? You might value it enough to still make that trade-off, but I think most people would rather hold their nose and go with the airline they hate
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@hungrier said in Dear Aer Lingus...:
I think most people would rather hold their nose and go with the airline they hate
That depends. Is the hated airline Ryanair?
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@hungrier Virgin costs pretty much the same as all the other airlines. That's why the drastic increase in quality is so noticeable. And I'd take an extra seven hours of layover for a Virgin plane, yes.
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@PJH I'm guessing the lies by the staff were along the lines of omitting that other staff members were employed by a subsidiary or whatever, and this one technically was the only one with Aer Lingus Customer Service as opposed to Aer Lingus Casually Directing People.
Seems the whole thing is a cludge of lackadaisical training, recruiting and procedures.
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@boomzilla said in Dear Aer Lingus...:
Delta is pretty awful. Unless you really like hanging out at the Atlanta airport.
Never flown to Atlanta, but here they're the default (SLC is a major Delta hub) and I've always had good experiences with them.
