Do you send thank-you notes after being interviewed?
-
@mott555 you don't get the point. It's not about the good companies, it's about the bad ones. In Europe generally speaking even the bad companies are forced to be
goodbetter by the law. (And they could be better yet, for example mental illnesses are still stigmatized and mistreated, and economically speaking, labour tax in most economies is too high and that tax should be levied elsewhere IMO). And sometimes it's not even about profitability/productivity/simply money, it's about toxic management (like @levicki said). Plus, if the successful companies are those who treat their employees well, I don't see any value in letting bad companies take shortcuts by treating their employees badly, it's just a way to prolong the life of an dying monster.The corner cases of some prick managing not to get fired or taking undue advantage of his benefits are not enough to justify getting rid of those protections. There will always be somebody who overbenefits. It's a fact of life.
-
@levicki said in Do you send thank-you notes after being interviewed?:
@Polygeekery said in Do you send thank-you notes after being interviewed?:
That is a pretty shit attitude. You should both be appreciative of the efforts and time of the other.
Nope. What I am talking about is this.
People in the USA have this unhealthy... cult... where employees have almost no rights and are expected to work even when sick/pregnant, put enormous amounts of overtime (60-80 hour work weeks), lick their anus and be quiet while their employer can do whatever the fuck they want such as termination without prior notice, forcing pregnant women to work until they miscarry, including illegal arbitration clauses in contracts preventing lawsuits for wrongful termination, inhuman working conditions, treating employees without basic human dignity, etc.
Huh. This sounds related to the unhealthy European cult of imagining terrible things happening all the time everywhere in America.
Yes, there are shitty and abusive employers in Europe too (mostly retail crap like supermarket chains), but even that is better than the most I read about the USA.
Yep, nailed it.
-
@levicki said in Do you send thank-you notes after being interviewed?:
I know that what I wrote above is going to sound unpopular with many (probably butthurt because of me badmouthing the glorious USA), but that won't make what I said less true.
Correct. It's untrue because it's untrue.
Which, like your previous European disclaimer, comes with an American disclaimer that shitty places and people exist.
-
@boomzilla you're not going to get away with saying "nah, can't hear you".
-
@levicki said in Do you send thank-you notes after being interviewed?:
Maybe. The problem in my opinion is the USA legal framework (which is pretty much very different than the European one from what I understand) -- all that "let the industry regulate itself" bullshit has been proven time and time again not to work everywhere (because of corporate greed), yet it seems that half the USA still votes for that option thus putting and tightening the noose around their own necks.
We are a veritable libertarian paradise like Somalia!
No, in reality I'm not sure what you're talking about. We have plenty of regulation of companies by various levels of governments.
-
@topspin said in Do you send thank-you notes after being interviewed?:
@Polygeekery said in Do you send thank-you notes after being interviewed?:
@acrow said in Do you send thank-you notes after being interviewed?:
@mott555 Agreed. The enterpreneur often realizes that keeping the employees happy keeps them productive much better than micromanagement does. In large places, squeezing employees gives a larger immediate apparent savings due to sheer number of people under the press, so it happens more.
IME, with the clients we support, the businesses that are most profitable are the ones that treat their employees best. The ones that are not doing as well are the ones where the owner does not treat employees as well and micromanages them.
That's because you work in a field where having the best employees is very valuable. For low-skill labor (where potential employees are in high supply), however, it seems that treating your employees like absolute shit is good for business.
It depends. If you can find some who are reliable even though low skilled it it probably very much in your interest to treat them well. Even without that, employee turnover is a killer even if they don't realize what it's costing them.
-
@boomzilla AIDS is a walk in the park when compared to Ebola.
-
@admiral_p said in Do you send thank-you notes after being interviewed?:
@boomzilla you're not going to get away with saying "nah, can't hear you".
As if I'd use a screen reader.
-
@admiral_p said in Do you send thank-you notes after being interviewed?:
@boomzilla AIDS is a walk in the park when compared to Ebola.
Nevertheless, his statement about no industry regulation exposes his vast ignorance about America.
-
@boomzilla that's not what he's saying. Literal interpretations, the most tedious way to get around an argument.
-
@admiral_p said in Do you send thank-you notes after being interviewed?:
@boomzilla that's not what he's saying. Literal interpretations, the most tedious way to get around an argument.
The literal interpretation was my Somalia joke. But sure, if you want to exclaim your ignorance, too, why should I stop you?
-
@boomzilla misdirection, next.
-
@admiral_p said in Do you send thank-you notes after being interviewed?:
@boomzilla misdirection, next.
Go ahead and then you can claim that none of it really matters. Not that you've provided anyone with your "non-literal" interpretation or anything.
-
@boomzilla he never said that there is no regulation at all. He didn't even use the word "regulation". Yawn.
-
@admiral_p true, he used the word "regulate." But I'll give you marks for misdirection there, for sure.
-
@Polygeekery said in Do you send thank-you notes after being interviewed?:
@levicki said in Do you send thank-you notes after being interviewed?:
Fair enough, but when big companies like Amazon, Verizon, etc have those egregious examples what do you think happens in smaller companies where nepotism is surely still entrenched?
Business runs on nepotism. There is fuckall you can do about that.
I will say this much: My entire working life when I was working for others, I worked for companies that would never end up on the Fortune 500, and I never saw anyone treated like that. In smaller companies people are not numbers. They are people.
The shittiest owner I ever worked for, a guy that could be a complete and total asshole at times, had his great moments. As an example, we employed some people who would be on the fringe of society. Ex-cons, etc. We had an employee who lived paycheck to paycheck because of his own choices, and that led him to a situation. He and his baby's momma had a child who was stillborn, and he showed up to work the next day. He was an absolute emotional wreck, as you might imagine. The owner asked him what he was doing there, and told him to take as much time off as he needed. The fellow tells him, while starting to cry, that he couldn't take time off because he had bills to pay and he did not even have the money needed to bury his child. The owner then tells him that he would give him two weeks vacation to give him time to grieve and then directed him to the funeral home he had just used to bury his own mother a few months earlier. He told him to go there and arrange for them to bury his child and he would pay for it.
You will never see something like that happen in a larger company, and such actions never hit the news because people who do such things do it out of the kindness of their own heart and not for media exposure.
That guy took the two weeks, the owner paid for the burial of his child, and he never came back to work. He never returned our phone calls. Just ghosted. No good deed goes unpunished. Not even a thank you.
I think my allergies are acting up.
-
@boomzilla isn't employment less regulated than in Europe generally speaking? Yes. Otherwise we wouldn't be living in the Socialist nightmare you despise. On the other hand, some industries might be more tightly regulated than in Europe (for example historically the auto industry is more tightly regulated in the US than in Europe, at least under certain points of view). But I don't see how that applies to this discussion.
-
@boomzilla said in Do you send thank-you notes after being interviewed?:
@admiral_p said in Do you send thank-you notes after being interviewed?:
@boomzilla AIDS is a walk in the park when compared to Ebola.
Nevertheless, his statement about no industry regulation exposes his vast ignorance about America.
See, you say that, but, having worked in the public sector, that's what I think about noise coming out of talk radio and editorial pages. At my last job, I worked six hours of unpaid overtime every week. To hear people talk, they don't think I even showed up six hours a month. And the sheer volume of stuff that's outsourced but the union employees catch the flak for is crazy...
-
@admiral_p said in Do you send thank-you notes after being interviewed?:
@boomzilla isn't employment less regulated than in Europe generally speaking? Yes.
Agreed.
Otherwise we wouldn't be living in the Socialist nightmare you despise. On the other hand, some industries might be more tightly regulated than in Europe (for example historically the auto industry is more tightly regulated in the US than in Europe, at least under certain points of view).
Also, yes.
But I don't see how that applies to this discussion.
It's exactly the (sub)discussion we were having. You've demonstrated that it's a lot more complicated than was being presented above by @levicki.
-
@Zenith said in Do you send thank-you notes after being interviewed?:
See, you say that, but, having worked in the public sector, that's what I think about noise coming out of talk radio and editorial pages. At my last job, I worked six hours of unpaid overtime every week. To hear people talk, they don't think I even showed up six hours a month. And the sheer volume of stuff that's outsourced but the union employees catch the flak for is crazy...
You worked six hours of unpaid overtime every week in the government? In government contracting, when I had contact with government employees, I would find two kinds. 95% of the government employees were only busy about 10% of the time. Some of the managers, on the other hand, worked 45 - 50+ hours a week. So you didn't need to work hard to survive, but you did need to work hard to ascend. (Not counting scheduled promotions.)
-
@levicki said in Do you send thank-you notes after being interviewed?:
Interesting story. Here in Europe we have minimum 5 working days off for the death of a family member mandated by law.
Nope. That is not Europe thing. In my European country, the law says you have the right for 1 day off, and for a far off funeral, 2 days of travels. The time off does not have to be paid, that is left up to the employer or the union/employer bloodsucking agreement.
Most companies and unions go above and beyond what the law stipulates though.
-
@jinpa Would've been twelve hours if not for the other DBA. It was just awful. Not just because of the time but because it was completely unnecessary.
I was coming off of two years of really bad private sector jobs (desperation). For the first two years, I had a supervisor who actually pushed back. It was still unnecessary overtime but it was like three hours a month. Then he was shuffled elsewhere to be marginalized and the problems became exponentially worse. I can't even begin to explain how fucked up that department is and you wouldn't believe me if I did.
I really disagree that you need to work hard to ascend in government. There are alot of managers pulling down six figures that don't know anything, don't do anything, don't communicate anything, etc. They fail upward. Every boondoggle we suffer ends with the architects promoted to where they can do even more damage. My blood is boiling just thinking about it. If you do your job well, these assholes just burn you out.
Perhaps the sickest part in my opinion is this. I'm really good at developing software. No, I don't use MVC like the cool kids, but my work is reliable and efficient and documented. Bad management pushed me into a management position where I really do about six hours of work a month now. I hate myself for having a makework job almost as much as I hate the circumstances that put me here.
-
@Zenith there goes... Europe is just as diverse as ...hmm ... California and Maryland.
that being said -as european-: assholes are everywhere, can't be helped because everyone has one; the majority just doesn't show them.
-
@Zenith said in Do you send thank-you notes after being interviewed?:
@jinpa Would've been twelve hours if not for the other DBA. It was just awful. Not just because of the time but because it was completely unnecessary.
I was coming off of two years of really bad private sector jobs (desperation). For the first two years, I had a supervisor who actually pushed back. It was still unnecessary overtime but it was like three hours a month. Then he was shuffled elsewhere to be marginalized and the problems became exponentially worse. I can't even begin to explain how fucked up that department is and you wouldn't believe me if I did.
I really disagree that you need to work hard to ascend in government. There are alot of managers pulling down six figures that don't know anything, don't do anything, don't communicate anything, etc. They fail upward. Every boondoggle we suffer ends with the architects promoted to where they can do even more damage. My blood is boiling just thinking about it. If you do your job well, these assholes just burn you out.
Perhaps the sickest part in my opinion is this. I'm really good at developing software. No, I don't use MVC like the cool kids, but my work is reliable and efficient and documented. Bad management pushed me into a management position where I really do about six hours of work a month now. I hate myself for having a makework job almost as much as I hate the circumstances that put me here.
I'm convinced. Let's have these people tell us how to run our workplaces!
-
@boomzilla I know this is sarcasm but I'm really having a difficult time seeing how one end of a shit sandwich tastes better than the other.
-
@Zenith it doesn't but the view might be nicer :boobies: instead of :x-holes: ?
-
@Zenith said in Do you send thank-you notes after being interviewed?:
@boomzilla I know this is sarcasm but I'm really having a difficult time seeing how one end of a shit sandwich tastes better than the other.
That wasn't directed at you exactly. OTOH, I think European regulations like, "It takes 6 months to fire someone" are insane (pretty sure people around here have talked about stuff like that).
-
@boomzilla said in Do you send thank-you notes after being interviewed?:
I think European regulations like, "It takes 6 months to fire someone" are insane
There isn't really one like that - not Europe-wide regulation anyway.
In the UK there's no regulation around length of time - how long it takes depends on the circumstances and how good the employee's management/HR robots are.
-
@loopback0 said in Do you send thank-you notes after being interviewed?:
@boomzilla said in Do you send thank-you notes after being interviewed?:
I think European regulations like, "It takes 6 months to fire someone" are insane
There isn't really one like that - not Europe-wide regulation anyway.
I know. I didn't mean it like that. Just that somewhere in Europe something like that exists.
In the UK there's no regulation around length of time - how long it takes depends on the circumstances and how good the employee's management/HR robots are.
I may also have been thinking about mandatory delays for resigning from a job, too.
-
@boomzilla but not enough to transcend his point. With all the added regulations in select fields in the US I don't think that somehow doing business in the US is harder than in Europe.
By the way, AFAIK, many of those added regulations (at least which mainly apply to the end product) are not even US-wide. They technically originate from California and are only valid in California. Since it doesn't make sense, evidently, to produce two different lines (one for California, one for the rest of the US) what California says is de facto law in the rest of the country. And California happens to be, generically speaking, quite a bit more "liberal" than the rest of the US.
-
@admiral_p said in Do you send thank-you notes after being interviewed?:
@boomzilla but not enough to transcend his point.
I think you've minimized what he's saying with your non-literal interpretation, perhaps.
With all the added regulations in select fields in the US I don't think that somehow doing business in the US is harder than in Europe.
Indeed. I think that there are a lot of reasons to believe the opposite, though as before...it's complicated.
-
@boomzilla OK. My work experience makes "hard to fire" stories sound even more outlandish to me than they must sound to you. I don't think I've ever been formally disciplined. Just boom, here's your box. Bad employees can be protected anywhere though. I think the argument being made is that maybe a small amount of protection for all employees might spare innocent employees a little bit of that abrupt disruption.
-
@boomzilla said in Do you send thank-you notes after being interviewed?:
I may also have been thinking about mandatory delays for resigning from a job, too.
In the UK resignation isn't regulated but minimum notice is written into a lot of employment contracts (if one exists) - both for termination and resignation. If you want to deal with whatever the consequences written into it (if any) are then you can leave.
If you're making someone redundant (e.g. you don't need someone but they're in contract and their job no longer exists, rather than they're shit at their job or whatever) there are regulations around how much notice to give them, but you can just give them severance payment in lieu of notice.
-
@acrow said in Do you send thank-you notes after being interviewed?:
So it's either automated e-mail rejections or nothing.
Even an automated email rejection is infinitely preferable to never hearing anything.
-
@boomzilla said in Do you send thank-you notes after being interviewed?:
@Zenith said in Do you send thank-you notes after being interviewed?:
@boomzilla I know this is sarcasm but I'm really having a difficult time seeing how one end of a shit sandwich tastes better than the other.
That wasn't directed at you exactly. OTOH, I think European regulations like, "It takes 6 months to fire someone" are insane (pretty sure people around here have talked about stuff like that).
It varies by country. In Poland, it's 2 weeks for people employed for under 6 months, 1 month for people employed for under 3 years and 3 months for people employed for over 3 years, and it doesn't apply in case of disciplinary firing or mutual agreement to terminate employment. I like it, because it's not terribly long, but also doesn't suddenly leave you without income (you lose income, but not so suddenly).
-
@thegoryone said in Do you send thank-you notes after being interviewed?:
@LaoC said in Do you send thank-you notes after being interviewed?:
Obviously, a fantastic applicant for her is only one who knows where their place is: on their knees
-
@levicki said in Do you send thank-you notes after being interviewed?:
@acrow said in Do you send thank-you notes after being interviewed?:
The problem with the current Soviet Socialist Europe is that the socialism started to bloat and bog things down.
You mean, totally unlike what those fat corporate
donationsbribes are doing in the USA?The exact same thing happens here too. In Finland there's the added zest that the bribe money was usually stolen from public funds in the first place.
-
@loopback0 said in Do you send thank-you notes after being interviewed?:
you can just give them severance payment in lieu of notice
Or have them on “gardening leave” for the statutory notice period.
-
@levicki said in Do you send thank-you notes after being interviewed?:
Yes, but at least in EU there are laws against bribery and corruption so there is at least a potential to get caught and fined or end up in prison. In USA it is fucking free for all.
Today I learned that people actually believe the shit they see on the news about the USA.
-
@pie_flavor But see, we're actually dealing with the problem here in the EU:
-
@pie_flavor said in Do you send thank-you notes after being interviewed?:
@levicki said in Do you send thank-you notes after being interviewed?:
Yes, but at least in EU there are laws against bribery and corruption so there is at least a potential to get caught and fined or end up in prison. In USA it is fucking free for all.
Today I learned that people actually believe the shit they see on the news about the USA.
Half of your own goddamn nation believes what the news say about their own country. Why shouldn't half of rightpondians?
-
@Gąska said in Do you send thank-you notes after being interviewed?:
@pie_flavor said in Do you send thank-you notes after being interviewed?:
@levicki said in Do you send thank-you notes after being interviewed?:
Yes, but at least in EU there are laws against bribery and corruption so there is at least a potential to get caught and fined or end up in prison. In USA it is fucking free for all.
Today I learned that people actually believe the shit they see on the news about the USA.
Half of your own goddamn nation believes what the news say about their own country.
You mean both halves.
-
@topspin said in Do you send thank-you notes after being interviewed?:
@Gąska said in Do you send thank-you notes after being interviewed?:
@pie_flavor said in Do you send thank-you notes after being interviewed?:
@levicki said in Do you send thank-you notes after being interviewed?:
Yes, but at least in EU there are laws against bribery and corruption so there is at least a potential to get caught and fined or end up in prison. In USA it is fucking free for all.
Today I learned that people actually believe the shit they see on the news about the USA.
Half of your own goddamn nation believes what the news say about their own country.
You mean both halves.
Just not the same news sources.
-
@levicki said in Do you send thank-you notes after being interviewed?:
@boomzilla said in Do you send thank-you notes after being interviewed?:
No, in reality I'm not sure what you're talking about. We have plenty of regulation of companies by various levels of governments.
So what you are saying is that Facebook was heavily fined for all those data breaches, Mark Zuckerberg had to resign and is looking forward to up to 10 years in prison just like what happened to Volkswagen and their ex-CEO Martin Winterkorn in Germany?
What?
No, but seriously, are you serious?
What you have plenty instead of regulation is regulatory capture, or the 737 MAX fiasco wouldn't have happend, killing of net neutrality wouldn't have happened, and your internet bills wouldn't be 4x the EU price for 6x slower access.
You also have way too much freedom for some things critical to society like health care, or the measles outbreak and those nutty anti-vaxxers wouldn't have happened either.
I'm amused that your example is people refusing health Care. That's a new tactic.
@acrow said in Do you send thank-you notes after being interviewed?:
The exact same thing happens here too. In Finland there's the added zest that the bribe money was usually stolen from public funds in the first place.
Yes, but at least in EU there are laws against bribery and corruption so there is at least a potential to get caught and fined or end up in prison. In USA it is fucking free for all.
Eh. We have to do something with all that oil money we all got from Iraq.
-
@levicki said in Do you send thank-you notes after being interviewed?:
@boomzilla said in Do you send thank-you notes after being interviewed?:
What?
No, but seriously, are you serious?
Why I wouldn't be? It's an example of low or almost no industry regulation when it comes to privacy. And when it comes to Facebook, this just in, so if american companies are regulated, when is Zuck going to jail over this one? Or is he going to be "punished" again by having to answer questions in front of Senate (i.e. just for show)?
So you were serious. And believe that one thing shows that there's no regulation.
Granted, it's not the same industry on both sides of my example, but if that is the only thing that bothers you then I'll try harder.
How about Flint water crisis? See how many were actually charged and put in jail in the end?
You mean where the government screwed up? How does that help your case?
Or how about subprime mortgage crisis? How many big bank CEOs are in jail over that one? Who footed the bill for fucking up the economy? Was it your tax money or were the banks responsible? Or were they "too big to fail"? As a counter-example, check how Finland dealt with banks.
And once again you've found a situation where the government had its hands in the pie and are ignoring it.
I mean, Googling stuff isn't rocket surgery, it just requires an inquiring mind so if you are not satisfied with my examples I am sure you will be able to find plenty others, and that's without mentioning Republicans who are always pushing for deregulation and against "big government" and >50% of Americans seems to be in support of that given their recent electoral votes.
And we'd be so much better of if the Republicans actually acted like they believed that. I mean, what do you think "too big to fail" is about? It's precisely big government.
-
@dcon said in Do you send thank-you notes after being interviewed?:
@topspin said in Do you send thank-you notes after being interviewed?:
@Gąska said in Do you send thank-you notes after being interviewed?:
@pie_flavor said in Do you send thank-you notes after being interviewed?:
@levicki said in Do you send thank-you notes after being interviewed?:
Yes, but at least in EU there are laws against bribery and corruption so there is at least a potential to get caught and fined or end up in prison. In USA it is fucking free for all.
Today I learned that people actually believe the shit they see on the news about the USA.
Half of your own goddamn nation believes what the news say about their own country.
You mean both halves.
Just not the same news sources.
As a general rule, major news sources report correctly. They just pick what to report.
-
@boomzilla said in Do you send thank-you notes after being interviewed?:
And we'd be so much better of if the Republicans actually acted like they believed that. I mean, what do you think "too big to fail" is about? It's precisely big government.
I seem to recall it being used in two contexts. One, uncertainty over what happens when city/state governments go bankrupt. Two, industries so consolidated that the collapse of one player could practically wipe out an entire industry. They're separate concepts in my mind too, the former being more of an unstoppable force vs an immovable object while the latter is about access to services.
-
@Zenith said in Do you send thank-you notes after being interviewed?:
@boomzilla said in Do you send thank-you notes after being interviewed?:
And we'd be so much better of if the Republicans actually acted like they believed that. I mean, what do you think "too big to fail" is about? It's precisely big government.
I seem to recall it being used in two contexts. One, uncertainty over what happens when city/state governments go bankrupt. Two, industries so consolidated that the collapse of one player could practically wipe out an entire industry. They're separate concepts in my mind too, the former being more of an unstoppable force vs an immovable object while the latter is about access to services.
The context I was replying to was bank bailouts by the government. Yes, great of wrong out an industry is the typical justification but free enterprise works best when failure of a firm is possible.
Wanting CEOs to go to jail for acting rationally and legally to government incentives (NB: positive incentives, not a lack of regulation) strikes me as capricious and not particularly helpful for correcting the mistakes of the past or making the world a better place.
-
@boomzilla said in Do you send thank-you notes after being interviewed?:
Wanting CEOs to go to jail for acting rationally and legally to government incentives (NB: positive incentives, not a lack of regulation) strikes me as capricious and not particularly helpful for correcting the mistakes of the past or making the world a better place.
Speaking of banks and Europe: I don’t remember if all the shit Goldman-Sachs did was legal or not, but we’ve bailed out the banks without anyone going to jail, either.
And so far we’ve yet to see anyone go to jail, or even pay back the €50+ billion, for this definitely highly illegal shit:Even worse, last I’ve heard it might soon enough fall under the statute of limitations before anyone goes to jail.
-
@boomzilla said in Do you send thank-you notes after being interviewed?:
Yes, great of wrong out an industry is the typical justification
I think you words there some. Or something.