So I decided to try to update part of my toolchain...
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@Groaner nah, we're still a long way from literally thousand posts in a day.
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@boomzilla And what if you're on an embedded environment without a file system?
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@boomzilla said in So I decided to try to update part of my toolchain...:
@Gąska said in So I decided to try to update part of my toolchain...:
@boomzilla okay, okay, calm down. Let me ask again.
What's
wrong withnot very good about OS-provided file lookup widget?Sometimes you don't even have a GUI.
Party like it's 1970!
...Okay, okay, I'll stop.
How does that work on a CLI?
Well, it would certainly require us to change how we think of CLI. I don't feel like going into details (given the track record, there's 0% chance it will end in anything but shouting at each other for imaginary reasons), but one idea I've had (and also described the last time there was discussion on this topic) is having strongly-typed shell commands with interface declarations, and the shell, alredy being a very privileged program, taking care of converting user input into file IDs/handles. Of course this should only be available for direct user interaction and no part of it should be exposed for programmatic use.
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@Tsaukpaetra said in So I decided to try to update part of my toolchain...:
@Gąska said in So I decided to try to update part of my toolchain...:
@Tsaukpaetra and what do you think the result would be?
Civilised Discourse.
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@Gąska how do I use that widget to refer to a file that doesn't exist yet? Or exists somewhere out there on some other machine to which I do not have an active connection? Both are very common when writing html files.
Edit: Since the image resources are created by someone else and may not exist until much later in the design process than the actual HTML page being written (but with known paths)? Having paths to files be (part of) a URI (so I can do things like
path/to/file
and when I'm on the web it just works because it can automatically prepend the current protocol and host and when I'm on my local machine it can simply prependfile://%PWD%
and be done with it.
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@Benjamin-Hall said in So I decided to try to update part of my toolchain...:
how do I use that widget to refer to a file that doesn't exist yet?
Guess the GUID it'll have. If one day it actually works for someone it would be magical.
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@boomzilla said in So I decided to try to update part of my toolchain...:
Yes, this. That's how designing works. By which I mean, it IS going to be determined. Once I determine it, I'll post an answer.
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@levicki said in So I decided to try to update part of my toolchain...:
What problem it is exactly solving? It's just getting in the way without offering any actual protection. It's a fucking nag screen, instead of user action authentication.
It makes it impossible for a non-elevated program (I.E. web browser) to execute elevated code without user interaction. It also serves as a warning - if an image viewer you just downloaded from the Internet is requesting elevation, that's a sign that something might be off. (Of course this requires you to be able to think critically about this, which many people don't, but it provides a layer of protection). It's not designed to prevent hostile users from executing programs - there are plenty of mechanisms to prevent this already, and a hostile user can do plenty of damage without elevation anyways. The best way to secure a system you're not at is +L anyways. If you leave your computer unlocked you're asking to have that kind of shit happen.
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@Gąska said in So I decided to try to update part of my toolchain...:
@boomzilla said in So I decided to try to update part of my toolchain...:
Yes, this. That's how designing works. By which I mean, it IS going to be determined. Once I determine it, I'll post an answer.
And you accuse me of not paying attention in here.
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@boomzilla replying to your posts is not paying attention now? Should I stop responding to show that I pay attention? Or do you think I haven't noticed your poor attempt at making a joke? I don't get what you're trying to say.
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@Gąska said in So I decided to try to update part of my toolchain...:
replying to your posts is not paying attention now?
What? No one accused you of not paying attention, did they? I certainly didn't.
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@boomzilla oh, I see.
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@Gąska said in So I decided to try to update part of my toolchain...:
@Tsaukpaetra it's hard to take you seriously when you only reply with memes.
YMBNH
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@Tsaukpaetra said in So I decided to try to update part of my toolchain...:
@Gąska said in So I decided to try to update part of my toolchain...:
@boomzilla said in So I decided to try to update part of my toolchain...:
@Gąska said in So I decided to try to update part of my toolchain...:
@boomzilla said in So I decided to try to update part of my toolchain...:
@Gąska said in So I decided to try to update part of my toolchain...:
@boomzilla said in So I decided to try to update part of my toolchain...:
@Gąska said in So I decided to try to update part of my toolchain...:
@boomzilla said in So I decided to try to update part of my toolchain...:
In any case, the idea that modern filesystems are fundamentally broken is laughable.
The only laughable thing is your irrational fear of new ideas.
No one is afraid here. I already said that you guys were funny. That's not the same as scary. You could look it up.
Being innovative is funny. K.
Have you been to the Internet of Shit or the Dumb Things Being Crowdfunded threads?
Many times. And I've had a good laugh there. Because there was something actually wrong with those projects and I could tell you exactly what is wrong with them in one simple sentence.
Like this?
@boomzilla said in So I decided to try to update part of my toolchain...:
I'm having a lot of fun watching people recreate what's essentially identical to a normal directory structure except with incomprehensible random sequences of characters.
Like this, except I'd prefer something that's actually true.
Hmm...are you actually in @tart_savor's world?
What?
@pie_flavor didn't want his precious username in the same sentence as a bad word, so he whined until the thread title got changed.
I get the sense that you're trying to learn to troll, but you haven't quite figured out how yet.
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@Benjamin-Hall said in So I decided to try to update part of my toolchain...:
@Tsaukpaetra said in So I decided to try to update part of my toolchain...:
@Benjamin-Hall said in So I decided to try to update part of my toolchain...:
I want to link it
I had this question upthread, seems the answer is "there will, of course, be backwards compatibility. Somehow. Probably. But I won't tell you how."
But you'd need language compatibility going forward. You'd have to completely rewrite how HTML works (all those
href
andsrc
attributes, for example) and probably say that you can only use certain blessed tools.I taught HTML and CSS using iPads (which are similar to this issue). It was a serious pain. You had to import images into the app (thereby duplicating them on-device), you could only use files that the editor app understood (no
<video>
or<audio>
tags for you!), you could only view the resulting file from within the app (although you could zip it up and place it in something like Google Drive for uploading elsewhere), etc.This year I get to do it on laptops (still Macs, but...) and it's way better, at least for me.
No you wouldn't. Since when do URLs have to map 1:1 with files on disk?
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@pie_flavor said in So I decided to try to update part of my toolchain...:
@Benjamin-Hall said in So I decided to try to update part of my toolchain...:
@Tsaukpaetra said in So I decided to try to update part of my toolchain...:
@Benjamin-Hall said in So I decided to try to update part of my toolchain...:
I want to link it
I had this question upthread, seems the answer is "there will, of course, be backwards compatibility. Somehow. Probably. But I won't tell you how."
But you'd need language compatibility going forward. You'd have to completely rewrite how HTML works (all those
href
andsrc
attributes, for example) and probably say that you can only use certain blessed tools.I taught HTML and CSS using iPads (which are similar to this issue). It was a serious pain. You had to import images into the app (thereby duplicating them on-device), you could only use files that the editor app understood (no
<video>
or<audio>
tags for you!), you could only view the resulting file from within the app (although you could zip it up and place it in something like Google Drive for uploading elsewhere), etc.This year I get to do it on laptops (still Macs, but...) and it's way better, at least for me.
No you wouldn't. Since when do URLs have to map 1:1 with files on disk?
So instead you'd have to stand up a web server on your development device and provision all the URLs (without using paths...how? URLs have paths built into them. They may not be disk paths, but how are you going to identify the actual files on disk that they point to for those that need to?) And then you have to make sure that the URLs match the ones on prod exactly, otherwise everything breaks...
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@Benjamin-Hall Exactly! Welcome to the wonderful world of web development.
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@pie_flavor said in So I decided to try to update part of my toolchain...:
@Benjamin-Hall Exactly! Welcome to the wonderful world of web development.
It's much simpler now, as long as you're not enterprisy. And how are you generating those URLs without actually knowing where the file is? Or where it will be on this server you don't entirely control?
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@boomzilla said in So I decided to try to update part of my toolchain...:
I believe that's called
fopen
(etc). Takes the magic token and translates it to a magic number.
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@dcon said in So I decided to try to update part of my toolchain...:
@boomzilla said in So I decided to try to update part of my toolchain...:
I believe that's called
fopen
(etc). Takes the magic token and translates it to a magic number.and where are you getting the magic token for a file that doesn't exist on your machine yet?
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@Benjamin-Hall said in So I decided to try to update part of my toolchain...:
@dcon said in So I decided to try to update part of my toolchain...:
@boomzilla said in So I decided to try to update part of my toolchain...:
I believe that's called
fopen
(etc). Takes the magic token and translates it to a magic number.and where are you getting the magic token for a file that doesn't exist on your machine yet?
That's the magic number
0
. "I tried to read it and it failed. Up to you now program!"
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@Benjamin-Hall said in So I decided to try to update part of my toolchain...:
@pie_flavor said in So I decided to try to update part of my toolchain...:
@Benjamin-Hall Exactly! Welcome to the wonderful world of web development.
It's much simpler now, as long as you're not enterprisy. And how are you generating those URLs without actually knowing where the file is? Or where it will be on this server you don't entirely control?
I say
foobar.com/baz
. The server figures out what file to serve me. Right now that file is almost definitely entirely autogenerated - what's a little bit more?
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@dcon said in So I decided to try to update part of my toolchain...:
@Benjamin-Hall said in So I decided to try to update part of my toolchain...:
@dcon said in So I decided to try to update part of my toolchain...:
@boomzilla said in So I decided to try to update part of my toolchain...:
I believe that's called
fopen
(etc). Takes the magic token and translates it to a magic number.and where are you getting the magic token for a file that doesn't exist on your machine yet?
That's the magic number
0
. "I tried to read it and it failed. Up to you now program!"So you can't even write an HTML file that loads an asset to be determined later. Great.
Oh, and how is an HTML file calling
fopen
? And how are you telling it what file to open when it does exist? How do you write the HTML to do this without changing HTML at all?
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@pie_flavor said in So I decided to try to update part of my toolchain...:
@Benjamin-Hall said in So I decided to try to update part of my toolchain...:
@pie_flavor said in So I decided to try to update part of my toolchain...:
@Benjamin-Hall Exactly! Welcome to the wonderful world of web development.
It's much simpler now, as long as you're not enterprisy. And how are you generating those URLs without actually knowing where the file is? Or where it will be on this server you don't entirely control?
I say
foobar.com/baz
. The server figures out what file to serve me. Right now that file is almost definitely entirely autogenerated - what's a little bit more?And how do you test it without a full identical copy of the production server? And (more importantly for my case) how do you teach a student to do this without having each of them having an individual copy of the production server...locally on their machine?
You're talking about having to generate a whole web server with routing, etc. Just to write a hello world HTML file that uses an external CSS or image file. Yay. No.
Edit: and "let the web server figure it out" is isomorphic to "just magic". Because the web server can't figure it out unless you tell it...and you now have no way of telling it without a GUI on the server itself.
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@Benjamin-Hall Or a GUI on the thing you use to talk to the server. I think your mental block is that you only see the terminal-server connection as bridgeable via SSH.
Anyway, your webdev environment doesn't have to be a dumb directory either. Add files and specify their name and extension. Boom, easy iPad development.
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@pie_flavor said in So I decided to try to update part of my toolchain...:
@Benjamin-Hall Or a GUI on the thing you use to talk to the server. I think your mental block is that you only see the terminal-server connection as bridgeable via SSH.
No, you're asking it to autogenerate something by magic. Or by taking a million clicks to do something that now can be done scripted. You're breaking all generation scripts. For very little gain that I can see. For something that cannot be implemented without breaking everything everywhere.
IE this whole thing is nothing but mental masturbation.
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@Benjamin-Hall said in So I decided to try to update part of my toolchain...:
IE this whole thing is nothing but mental masturbation.
Welcome to TDWTF.
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@Benjamin-Hall said in So I decided to try to update part of my toolchain...:
@dcon said in So I decided to try to update part of my toolchain...:
@Benjamin-Hall said in So I decided to try to update part of my toolchain...:
@dcon said in So I decided to try to update part of my toolchain...:
@boomzilla said in So I decided to try to update part of my toolchain...:
I believe that's called
fopen
(etc). Takes the magic token and translates it to a magic number.and where are you getting the magic token for a file that doesn't exist on your machine yet?
That's the magic number
0
. "I tried to read it and it failed. Up to you now program!"So you can't even write an HTML file that loads an asset to be determined later. Great.
Oh, and how is an HTML file calling
fopen
? And how are you telling it what file to open when it does exist? How do you write the HTML to do this without changing HTML at all?I think you're misreading me. Basically, I'm saying is their new super cool filesystem has to have path->id facilities for html (and pretty much any other place the user specifies a file within another file) to work. So I'm kind of (weakly) trolling with a: hey look, you can call
fopen
with a path (uri) and get back an ID!
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@Benjamin-Hall said in So I decided to try to update part of my toolchain...:
For something that cannot be implemented without breaking everything everywhere.
The same way Java did. You speak as though there will be no way forwards but the exact same technologies for all eternity. Even HTML started somewhere.
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@Gąska said in So I decided to try to update part of my toolchain...:
What's wrong with OS-provided file lookup widget?
Generally, configuration files don't come with one embedded.
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@PleegWat said in So I decided to try to update part of my toolchain...:
@Luhmann You expect one of the existing mods or (god forbid) the admins to promote someone?
Wouldn't that be work?
No, it would be delegation thereof! Totally different!
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@pie_flavor but your system can't sit on top of others like Java can. It's all or nothing. Huge first mover problem. Like IPV6, minus the pressing need.
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@dcon said in So I decided to try to update part of my toolchain...:
@Benjamin-Hall said in So I decided to try to update part of my toolchain...:
@dcon said in So I decided to try to update part of my toolchain...:
@Benjamin-Hall said in So I decided to try to update part of my toolchain...:
@dcon said in So I decided to try to update part of my toolchain...:
@boomzilla said in So I decided to try to update part of my toolchain...:
I believe that's called
fopen
(etc). Takes the magic token and translates it to a magic number.and where are you getting the magic token for a file that doesn't exist on your machine yet?
That's the magic number
0
. "I tried to read it and it failed. Up to you now program!"So you can't even write an HTML file that loads an asset to be determined later. Great.
Oh, and how is an HTML file calling
fopen
? And how are you telling it what file to open when it does exist? How do you write the HTML to do this without changing HTML at all?I think you're misreading me. Basically, I'm saying is their new super cool filesystem has to have path->id facilities for html (and pretty much any other place the user specifies a file within another file) to work. So I'm kind of (weakly) trolling with a: hey look, you can call
fopen
with a path (uri) and get back an ID!Ah. I misread. Sorry.
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@Gąska said in So I decided to try to update part of my toolchain...:
taking care of converting user input into file IDs/handles.
Sure, sure, but.... How would it be done?
Again, I say, MAGIC!
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@pie_flavor said in So I decided to try to update part of my toolchain...:
@Tsaukpaetra said in So I decided to try to update part of my toolchain...:
@Gąska said in So I decided to try to update part of my toolchain...:
@boomzilla said in So I decided to try to update part of my toolchain...:
@Gąska said in So I decided to try to update part of my toolchain...:
@boomzilla said in So I decided to try to update part of my toolchain...:
@Gąska said in So I decided to try to update part of my toolchain...:
@boomzilla said in So I decided to try to update part of my toolchain...:
@Gąska said in So I decided to try to update part of my toolchain...:
@boomzilla said in So I decided to try to update part of my toolchain...:
In any case, the idea that modern filesystems are fundamentally broken is laughable.
The only laughable thing is your irrational fear of new ideas.
No one is afraid here. I already said that you guys were funny. That's not the same as scary. You could look it up.
Being innovative is funny. K.
Have you been to the Internet of Shit or the Dumb Things Being Crowdfunded threads?
Many times. And I've had a good laugh there. Because there was something actually wrong with those projects and I could tell you exactly what is wrong with them in one simple sentence.
Like this?
@boomzilla said in So I decided to try to update part of my toolchain...:
I'm having a lot of fun watching people recreate what's essentially identical to a normal directory structure except with incomprehensible random sequences of characters.
Like this, except I'd prefer something that's actually true.
Hmm...are you actually in @tart_savor's world?
What?
@pie_flavor didn't want his precious username in the same sentence as a bad word, so he whined until the thread title got changed.
I get the sense that you're trying to learn to troll, but you haven't quite figured out how yet.
Much like Giggity Engine, it needs to be trained and improved over time.
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@levicki said in So I decided to try to update part of my toolchain...:
@Tsaukpaetra said in So I decided to try to update part of my toolchain...:
@Gąska said in So I decided to try to update part of my toolchain...:
taking care of converting user input into file IDs/handles.
Sure, sure, but.... How would it be done?
Again, I say, MAGIC!
Are we now onto MFFS?
I like it! We need to patent that, stat!
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I guess my take on this is that:
- Yeah, maybe file names suck and should be "replaced".
- But at the end of the day, the user will need to interact with a file, and unless the file is completely hidden behind the application (including serialization and transfer to peers, etc), the file will need some kind of user-readable identifier. This identifier is a definite descriptor (in the sense of Russell), so arguably qualifies as a "name". So we're back to square one.
- The reality is that this is the situation we're in today, too. File systems keep evolving internally, pushing more metadata in there to work more robustly. We still need a "name", and filenames are good enough.
But filenames do suck, and should be replaced. I had a lot of hope for MacOS's Spotlight thing way back when. Maybe AI can help us figure out some sensible universal tagging system. There just have to be better ideas for how we interact with files.
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@Captain Nobody so far, except the trolls, have talked about removing file names. What has been discussed is no longer using the names for the programmatic interface.
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@pie_flavor Everything I said still applies.
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@Captain Nope.
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@pie_flavor said in So I decided to try to update part of my toolchain...:
@Captain Nobody so far, except the trolls, have talked about removing file names. What has been discussed is no longer using the names for the programmatic interface.
All file systems have the ability to refer to files by id. The thing is, programmers are users too and are no better at remembering a guid than people who interact with a file browser
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@Jaloopa Nobody so far, except the trolls, have talked about remembering GUIDs. What has been discussed is using the GUIDs only for the programmatic interface.
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@Gąska said in So I decided to try to update part of my toolchain...:
programmatic interface.
i.e. the part programmers interact with. Programmers are users and aren't any good at remembering guids
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@Tsaukpaetra said in So I decided to try to update part of my toolchain...:
@levicki said in So I decided to try to update part of my toolchain...:
@Tsaukpaetra said in So I decided to try to update part of my toolchain...:
@Gąska said in So I decided to try to update part of my toolchain...:
taking care of converting user input into file IDs/handles.
Sure, sure, but.... How would it be done?
Again, I say, MAGIC!
Are we now onto MFFS?
I like it! We need to patent that, stat!
I'd have thought that you'd go for TSFS.
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@Captain said in So I decided to try to update part of my toolchain...:
Maybe AI can help
Nope. Any time you say that, the answer is no.
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@Jaloopa
And sysops, sysadmin, support techs and the gazillion other IT roles.
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@Jaloopa said in So I decided to try to update part of my toolchain...:
@Gąska said in So I decided to try to update part of my toolchain...:
programmatic interface.
i.e. the part programmers interact with. Programmers are users and aren't any good at remembering guids
How many memory pointers do you remember? Window handles? Mangled C++ function names? Hell, even file sizes? These are all part of programmatic interfaces that programmers have to deal with on daily basis.
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@Gąska ok, so as a programmer I have an ide open and want to add a command to open a particular file. What do I type in to the open method? If it's an unambiguous way to locate the file via a location and name then that's a path. If there is no such unambiguous way then what choice do I have other than knowing and using the guid?
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@Jaloopa said in So I decided to try to update part of my toolchain...:
@Gąska ok, so as a programmer I have an ide open and want to add a command to open a particular file. What do I type in to the open method?
See above.
If it's an unambiguous way to locate the file via a location and name then that's a path.
See above.