Epic Store (and other "Occupy Steam" movements)
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Apple: "You know you could sell V-bucks through Safari and have them usable in Fortnite, bypassing the store fee?"
Tim Sweeney: "But that makes it inconvenient to buy skins in the store, if you have to jump through extra steps to add V-bucks!"
Judge: "Considering the average age of Fortnite players, isn't that a good thing to limit impulse purchases?"
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@Atazhaia I think I read somewhere that Apple has rules against apps "off-boarding" users to the developer's websites (that are outside of the Appleverse) from inside their apps. (I don't do iOS/Apple, so I'm not able to confirm either way.)
But this would throw some spanners into that argument. I.e., you can have people buy V-bucks through the webpage accessible via Safari/whatever webrowser, but you're not allowed to actually get people to that webpage in a sensible way.
OTOH, with the judge on this. Adding some friction into buying V-bucks seems the right thing. Of course, that's not what Apple wants either, so...
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@Atazhaia said in Epic Store (and other "Occupy Steam" movements):
Apple: "You know you could sell V-bucks through Safari and have them usable in Fortnite, bypassing the store fee?"
Tim Sweeney: "But that makes it inconvenient to buy skins in the store, if you have to jump through extra steps to add V-bucks!"
"Judge": "Considering the average age of Fortnite players, isn't that a good thing to limit impulse purchases?"That's not what judges are for. This case isn't about whether purchasing Fortnite DLC, in general, is good or bad. The judge's opinion on that has nothing to do with the case.
It's about whether Apple's business practice of demanding a 30% cut on the DLC is an unfair practice or if Epic's circumvention of that fee is unfair to Apple.
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@GuyWhoKilledBear As long as the industry standard is 30% it's kinda hard to argue that Apple specifically are unfair. Epic introducing their own payment provider in their iOS app was however a breach of the App Store contract, which is also an industry standard. Sell stuff in our store, use our payment provider.
Epic are however trying to upset this by both taking a lower cut and allowing third-party payment providers for IAP. Which is a double-edged sword. While it gives freedom and an even bigger cut for the developer to use their own solution, it also introduces an additional layer of complexity in that you no longer have one point of contact for any payment problems. And I dunno how that works with F2P games. Are they to piggyback on a store without giving the store owner a cut? If everyone did that the store would be forced to close.
It is a complex issue and will be interesting to follow. But at the moment I can enjoy seeing Tim Sweeney making an ass of himself. Then let's see if Apple can top that once it's their turn!
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@Atazhaia said in Epic Store (and other "Occupy Steam" movements):
@GuyWhoKilledBear As long as the industry standard is 30% it's kinda hard to argue that Apple specifically are unfair. Epic introducing their own payment provider in their iOS app was however a breach of the App Store contract, which is also an industry standard. Sell stuff in our store, use our payment provider.
Epic are however trying to upset this by both taking a lower cut and allowing third-party payment providers for IAP. Which is a double-edged sword. While it gives freedom and an even bigger cut for the developer to use their own solution, it also introduces an additional layer of complexity in that you no longer have one point of contact for any payment problems. And I dunno how that works with F2P games. Are they to piggyback on a store without giving the store owner a cut? If everyone did that the store would be forced to close.
It is a complex issue and will be interesting to follow. But at the moment I can enjoy seeing Tim Sweeney making an ass of himself. Then let's see if Apple can top that once it's their turn!
Whatever.
None of that has anything to do with whether the judge is supposed to be interjecting his opinion that Fortnite DLC is stupid.
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@GuyWhoKilledBear said in Epic Store (and other "Occupy Steam" movements):
@Atazhaia said in Epic Store (and other "Occupy Steam" movements):
@GuyWhoKilledBear As long as the industry standard is 30% it's kinda hard to argue that Apple specifically are unfair. Epic introducing their own payment provider in their iOS app was however a breach of the App Store contract, which is also an industry standard. Sell stuff in our store, use our payment provider.
Epic are however trying to upset this by both taking a lower cut and allowing third-party payment providers for IAP. Which is a double-edged sword. While it gives freedom and an even bigger cut for the developer to use their own solution, it also introduces an additional layer of complexity in that you no longer have one point of contact for any payment problems. And I dunno how that works with F2P games. Are they to piggyback on a store without giving the store owner a cut? If everyone did that the store would be forced to close.
It is a complex issue and will be interesting to follow. But at the moment I can enjoy seeing Tim Sweeney making an ass of himself. Then let's see if Apple can top that once it's their turn!
Whatever.
None of that has anything to do with whether the judge is supposed to be interjecting his opinion that Fortnite DLC is stupid.
Yeah, you tell that judge!
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Fun with denial of redaction!
https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.cand.364265/gov.uscourts.cand.364265.594.0.pdf
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@cvi said in Epic Store (and other "Occupy Steam" movements):
@Atazhaia I think I read somewhere that Apple has rules against apps "off-boarding" users to the developer's websites (that are outside of the Appleverse) from inside their apps. (I don't do iOS/Apple, so I'm not able to confirm either way.)
Yes but they're applied super inconsistently, just like everything else. It is allowed, unless it isn't, and it's on case-by-case basis with no clear guidelines (other than "big companies can do whatever they want").
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@Gąska said in Epic Store (and other "Occupy Steam" movements):
Yes but they're applied super inconsistently, just like everything else.
I've actually been wondering: there are some apps where you can buy e.g., tickets for public transportation. I would be very surprised if those go via the Apple App store (on Android, they directly ask you for your payment info in the app). Do those fall under the "physical goods" exceptions that seem to exist, or are those just flying under the radar of Apple et al.?
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@cvi said in Epic Store (and other "Occupy Steam" movements):
@Gąska said in Epic Store (and other "Occupy Steam" movements):
Yes but they're applied super inconsistently, just like everything else.
I've actually been wondering: there are some apps where you can buy e.g., tickets for public transportation. I would be very surprised if those go via the Apple App store (on Android, they directly ask you for your payment info in the app). Do those fall under the "physical goods" exceptions that seem to exist, or are those just flying under the radar of Apple et al.?
I'm going to go with yes, those are physical goods. UNLESS books get the fee. EVEN IF music gets the fee.
That's my story, and I accept no responsibility for it.
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@cvi it probably falls under big companies exception.
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@Gąska said in Epic Store (and other "Occupy Steam" movements):
@cvi it probably falls under big companies exception.
you probably fall under big companies exception.
in fact, your mom probably falls under big companies exception.
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@Gąska said in Epic Store (and other "Occupy Steam" movements):
@cvi it probably falls under big companies exception.
AFAIK, "Värsttrafik", which serves the Gothenburg region in Sweden gets (or at least used to get) this exception. I somehow doubt that they fall into a "big company" category on Apple's level
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@cvi it's good to know that puns suck in all languages. really shows us what it is to be human.
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@cvi said in Epic Store (and other "Occupy Steam" movements):
@Gąska said in Epic Store (and other "Occupy Steam" movements):
Yes but they're applied super inconsistently, just like everything else.
I've actually been wondering: there are some apps where you can buy e.g., tickets for public transportation. I would be very surprised if those go via the Apple App store (on Android, they directly ask you for your payment info in the app). Do those fall under the "physical goods" exceptions that seem to exist, or are those just flying under the radar of Apple et al.?
There's a rule for that:
3.1.3(e) Goods and Services Outside of the App: If your app enables people to purchase physical goods or services that will be consumed outside of the app, you must use purchase methods other than in-app purchase to collect those payments, such as Apple Pay or traditional credit card entry.
Where in-app purchase just means through the app store payment processor - the alternative payment methods can still be in the app.
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@loopback0 said in Epic Store (and other "Occupy Steam" movements):
Where in-app purchase just means through the app store payment processor - the alternative payment methods can still be in the app.
That sounds vaguely sane.
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@loopback0 said in Epic Store (and other "Occupy Steam" movements):
There's a rule for that:
3.1.3(e) Goods and Services Outside of the App: If your app enables people to purchase physical goods or services that will be consumed outside of the app, you must use purchase methods other than in-app purchase to collect those payments, such as Apple Pay or traditional credit card entry.
Where in-app purchase just means through the app store payment processor - the alternative payment methods can still be in the app.
They have to have that exception, as the people dealing with goods and services outside the app system are typically already set up to deal with payment processors directly, and are able to just give Apple the if they get too obnoxious (as well as almost certainly getting both banks and governments after them directly). What Apple really doesn't want is for those sorts of services to end up all going that way, as that lessens the power of the app store system, so they have to keep quite attractive terms there.
There are limits to Apple's power.
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@dkf said in Epic Store (and other "Occupy Steam" movements):
They have to have that exception
Of course they do, it's a different market.
I did find it interesting though that they say you must use another payment method than the app store rather than you can.
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@loopback0 said in Epic Store (and other "Occupy Steam" movements):
I did find it interesting though that they say you must use another payment method than the app store rather than you can.
Apple probably doesn't want to deal with refund claims involving physical goods and services.
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@Gąska said in Epic Store (and other "Occupy Steam" movements):
@loopback0 said in Epic Store (and other "Occupy Steam" movements):
I did find it interesting though that they say you must use another payment method than the app store rather than you can.
Apple probably doesn't want to deal with refund claims involving physical goods and services.
I bet taxes has something to do with it also.
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@GuyWhoKilledBear doubt it. Digital sales are always in the default (ie. highest) tax group and there's no expenses to write off. It's almost certainly about actual handling costs and the legal overhead when you sell things that actually exist.
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@Applied-Mediocrity said in Epic Store (and other "Occupy Steam" movements):
WSJ link: https://archive.is/GkoA8
Nope, don't resist. Open yourself to Enlightenment.
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@Gribnit Enlightenment, you say? Nope, not with a .
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: We breached the contract, said we didn't, then the judge said we had. Apple said one thing and then did another. They LIED!
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@Applied-Mediocrity said in Epic Store (and other "Occupy Steam" movements):
@Gribnit Enlightenment, you say? Nope, not with a .
pokeball? That's the opposite of where I though that would go.
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Epic Store now has an Epic Shopping Cart and an Epic Wishlist: https://www.epicgames.com/store/en-US/news/introducing-the-epic-games-store-shopping-cart
Today is a pretty big day around here. You may have noticed a new feature at the top right of the Store launcher and website. (Go ahead, take a look. We’ll wait.) That’s it - the Shopping Cart! We tucked it in right up there next to your wishlist. If you’ve shopped online before, the cart works exactly as you’d expect.
E_EXPECTATIONS_PRETTY_LOW
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@cvi said in Epic Store (and other "Occupy Steam" movements):
Epic Store now has an Epic Shopping Cart and an Epic Wishlist: https://www.epicgames.com/store/en-US/news/introducing-the-epic-games-store-shopping-cart
Today is a pretty big day around here. You may have noticed a new feature at the top right of the Store launcher and website. (Go ahead, take a look. We’ll wait.) That’s it - the Shopping Cart! We tucked it in right up there next to your wishlist. If you’ve shopped online before, the cart works exactly as you’d expect.
E_EXPECTATIONS_PRETTY_LOW
So it took them years to implement a basic feature of an online shop? Great. I'm still staying away.
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@cvi said in Epic Store (and other "Occupy Steam" movements):
Epic Store now has an Epic Shopping Cart and an Epic Wishlist: https://www.epicgames.com/store/en-US/news/introducing-the-epic-games-store-shopping-cart
Today is a pretty big day around here. You may have noticed a new feature at the top right of the Store launcher and website. (Go ahead, take a look. We’ll wait.) That’s it - the Shopping Cart! We tucked it in right up there next to your wishlist. If you’ve shopped online before, the cart works exactly as you’d expect.
E_EXPECTATIONS_PRETTY_LOW
Amazon had that in the late 90s didn't it?
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@DogsB said in Epic Store (and other "Occupy Steam" movements):
Amazon
E_EXPECTATIONS_JUST_GOT_EVEN_LOWER
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@Carnage I’m guessing the reason it took them so long is because they couldn’t hire many devs because they were too busy paying the money to the games developers instead?
(J/k, I know that’s not the reason. But gotta go for the cheap laughs because my brain got broken by the stupid today)
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@Arantor said in Epic Store (and other "Occupy Steam" movements):
@Carnage I’m guessing the reason it took them so long is because they couldn’t hire many devs because they were too busy paying the money to the games developers instead?
(J/k, I know that’s not the reason. But gotta go for the cheap laughs because my brain got broken by the stupid today)
Bad jokes are always welcome.
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@DogsB said in Epic Store (and other "Occupy Steam" movements):
@Arantor said in Epic Store (and other "Occupy Steam" movements):
@Carnage I’m guessing the reason it took them so long is because they couldn’t hire many devs because they were too busy paying the money to the games developers instead?
(J/k, I know that’s not the reason. But gotta go for the cheap laughs because my brain got broken by the stupid today)
Bad jokes are always welcome.
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"For a while now, we've been spending way more money than we earn, investing in the next evolution of Epic and growing Fortnite as a metaverse-inspired ecosystem for creators," Sweeney said.
Riiiight...
sea bassmetaverse
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It turns out that maybe you do need to take more than 12% in game hosting fees after all?
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@Arantor said in Epic Store (and other "Occupy Steam" movements):
It turns out that maybe you do need to take more than 12% in game hosting fees after all?
Or take 12% of revenue but spaff less money up the wall on silly metaverse stuff and even sillier lawsuits
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@loopback0 the amount of money they spent on exclusive deals couldn't have helped either.
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i'm reeeeeeeally getting tired of seeing jobs sacrificed on the alter of "line must go up"
becuase, that's all this business bullshit reads to me. "we need to post better quarterly earnings or the shareholders will to the big mad and sell shares and we can't have the line go down! lime must go up! go sacrifice some workers! blood for the blood god!"
-grumbles and growls-
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@accalia said in Epic Store (and other "Occupy Steam" movements):
lime must go up!
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@accalia said in Epic Store (and other "Occupy Steam" movements):
lime must go up!
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@loopback0 said in Epic Store (and other "Occupy Steam" movements):
@accalia said in Epic Store (and other "Occupy Steam" movements):
lime must go up!
...... siiigh.
i'd correct the typo... but really that makes as much sense as the correct version does.
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@accalia more seriously though "spending way more money than we earn" isn't exactly a sustainable strategy. That's a line that needs to go up.
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@loopback0 said in Epic Store (and other "Occupy Steam" movements):
@accalia more seriously though "spending way more money than we earn" isn't exactly a sustainable strategy. That's a line that needs to go up.
spending more money than they earned wasn't a problem for YEARS. because line was going up. it's only now that line isnt' going up that it's a problem
business should be run in a sustainable way, not relying on the line always going up and embarking on strategies that mean when line doesnt' go up everything collapses..
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@accalia said in Epic Store (and other "Occupy Steam" movements):
spending more money than they earned wasn't a problem for YEARS.
It wasn't a problem yet.
@accalia said in Epic Store (and other "Occupy Steam" movements):
because line was going up.
Evidently not.
@accalia said in Epic Store (and other "Occupy Steam" movements):
business should be run in a sustainable way
Getting rid of 800 non-essential staff works towards that.
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@loopback0 and the same announcement, they’re hiring.
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@Arantor for apparently critical roles. They need to do that too.
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Sweeney, the CEO of Epic—a video game developer who had brought the case against Apple—termed the changes as a “bad faith ‘compliance’” of the court order.
Sweeney also criticized Apple’s disclaimer for users choosing an external payment option, calling it a “scare screen.”
That seems a reasonable warning.
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@loopback0 yeah, that’s Apple covering their arse. If they don’t have it, the same people would criticise them for not having it.
They’re still going to have people asking them to get a refund.