Automation!
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Now that my parents are retired they can take more time touring the country. They have a satnav unit in the car, but its maps are several years out of date. They bought an update, looked at the update process – and yes, that is an image map designed to make sure you follow each step in order – and even though they're by no means technophobes, asked me to install the update for them.
Never mind the fact that the support software spattered files all over the place during installation, including but not limited to my Documents folder and C:\; never mind the fact that its online help is a 404 (Windows does that so that's okay); never mind the other giggles that are to be had; I've now got to tell them the unit bricked itself partway through step 4(a) of step 6.
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@Watson Sounds about right. I always thought the only approved way to update those dedicated navigation systems was to buy a new one.
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@Parody said in Automation!:
@Watson Sounds about right. I always thought the only approved way to update those dedicated navigation systems was to buy a new one.
The other way is to go to the dealer, pay
x ERR_INT_OVERFLOWand hope they don't brick the system.
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@Parody Buy a cheapshit Android from seven years ago, root it, uninstall everything that isn't required by Google Maps, install a huge SD card, get a free SIM card from FreedomPop, and download maps before going anywhere rural. Problem solved, no?
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@pie_flavor said in Automation!:
@Parody Buy a cheapshit Android from seven years ago, root it, uninstall everything that isn't required by Google Maps, install a huge SD card, get a free SIM card from FreedomPop, and download maps before going anywhere
ruralfurther than the next mall.FTFY.
The one thing Google Maps has going for it is the search that beats the shit out of everything else because Google. If you can't use that because you're going somewhere you're not positive there's good-enough signal, you might as well use something free to begin with.
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@LaoC I just said Google Maps because it's the one I know. If I took the five seconds to Google it, I could have come up with actual offline maps applications, like HERE WeGo.
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It's not so much the existence of dedicated satellite navigation devices per se that is the problem (the Big Friendly Display is a definite plus given its intended users), it's the update process.
- Open or Download software
- Download correct map file. This isn't done from inside said software, mind. You do this from your browser; when you've downloaded it make sure you save it to
C:\Users\Public\Downloads\Mapsor it won't be found. It's an ISO, but NOTE: Do not double click or open the map file after download has been completed. - Turn on your device and connect it to your computer.
- Open or Download software. Just in case you didn't follow step 1.
- Unlock product features; this is where you enter the product key you got when you bought the update.
- (This where the wheels fell off for me). Download map. (What? Again? Turns out they mean load it onto the device.) This is the important step:
6.1. Go to the "My GPS" tab on the left hand menu (it's actually called "My Maps", this is the only place where "My GPS" is used).
6.2. Click on the Loadable Maps section.
6.3 Click the Open button (the one next to the trash can icon). If your map is not listed, there's a six-step process (a)-(f) for repointing the software to the aforementioned correct folder, which finishes up with
6.3.(f) Close and relaunch the software and proceed from Step 1 again.
6.3a (not to be confused with 6.3.(a)) is a variant for Mac users.
6.4. Wait for the screen to refresh. Now at this point you have to (a) manually indicate which of the currently installed maps should be removed, wait until they have been removed, then (b) indicate which of the new maps you want to install in their place.
They have a program to do the update. Why am I doing its job?
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@Watson That is phenomenally retarded. The only time I've had to update something without an internet connection, the steps were: download
update.hexfrom the website, connect the device and open the file drive that appears, put the file in the drive root, and restart the device. Why on earth should it be any harder than that?
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@pie_flavor said in Automation!:
@Watson That is phenomenally retarded. The only time I've had to update something without an internet connection, the steps were: download
update.hexfrom the website, connect the device and open the file drive that appears, put the file in the drive root, and restart the device. Why on earth should it be any harder than that?I would like to take this moment to point out that firmware upgrades on commerical/public service 2-way radios, an extremely niche field, are far easier than what he described. Namely
- Place radio in firmware upgrade mode (by holding down a button while turning it on)
- Open program. Ensure it's pointed at the correct COM port.
- Click "begin upgrade". Type in the "password".
- Upgrade does its thing.
- Done.
The program looks like the amount of time spent on it was about an hour. It's designed for professionals who know what they're doing. And it's still better than a consumer oriented product.
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@sloosecannon Even that requires an external program. Why should an external program be needed to talk to a device?
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Do they even expect anyone to read this?
Under step 4:
""Navdesk is compatible with Windows XP 3.2 bit, Vista 3Q bit, Windows 7 32 and 64 bit and Windows 8 64 bit."Presumably, 3Q is triacontakaidecimal, and there was a 122-bit version of Vista that was far ahead of its time.
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@pie_flavor said in Automation!:
@sloosecannon Even that requires an external program. Why should an external program be needed to talk to a device?
In this particular case? Because it's a very very specialized embedded system with like 256k flash memory that communicates over raw serial. There ain't no emulating storage here.
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@Watson:
Step 7: get blamed by your parents because "YOU BROKE IT!!!".
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I actually ditched a very early Navman this year and replaced it with the TomTom Android app.
Everything was great until I got a notification that a map update was available as I opened it before starting a journey.
5 Gigs? Not a problem, I'm still on the local network and it'll get 10 MB/sec. Except it didn't, it crawled along and 5 mins later had only downloaded 1% of the update, so I cancelled it:"You have no maps installed"
******-****ing ****bandits!
About an hour later I finally managed to start my journey.
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@pie_flavor For Android I say give HERE WeGo (formerly Here maps, formerly Ovi maps, formerly Nokia maps) a chance. Google Maps has probably caught on now, but about 5 years ago they were vastly superior in terms of offline usability.
Heck, the maps were one of the most valuable parts of Nokia when they got split up and auctioned.
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@Eric-Ray I, uh... so "q" is near "2", I get that, but... how did they manage to capitalise it?
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@Watson
Few years back I decided to buy a cheap secondary GPS unit that we could take along when traveling instead of paying extra for a rental car with GPS. Bought a MIO online. Opened the package and connected the thing to update it. Failed. Put everything back in the box. Payed slightly more to get a TomTom that worked.On the topic of updating GPS devices:
Usually the Garmin Cycle GPS I use doesn't need a PC connection but the other day I connect it to upload some tracks. Promptly got a 'new version' pop-up. After updating the pc software (naturally!). It started the update process for the device after warning that the update could take several hours(!) it plotted along for half an hour to finish with the notice that it couldn't update because my pc doesn't have 14GB free on the C-drive. Duh. It's 70GB contains almost only Windows and shitty apps that don't handle being installed on D:. Don't mind that the D-drive has 206 GB free. No it needs to take a backup of the device's 14GB (of witch only 6GB is in use) to the damn c-drive.
GAAAARRRRMIIIINNNNN!
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I have a Garmin for those times I don't want to use my phone. Forget the model, but it was one of those you could get with a lifetime map update. It's simple. Plug it in. Let program push the data. Done. (I did have to buy a sim card otherwise the map updates wouldn't fit)
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@Eric-Ray said in Automation!:
""Navdesk is compatible with Windows XP 3.2 bit, Vista 3Q bit, Windows 7 32 and 64 bit and Windows 8 64 bit."
That was always my favourite version of XP.
Still, I got it going again, and even updated
. So emergency Christmas shopping has been forestalled. But here's a little snippet of info that came up during troubleshooting:*Please note that the map version on the NavDesk software will show as v18.01. But once it’s installed on the unit, it will show as v2018.02.
It's never just one thing.
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This is 2018, this version has the full right to identify as v2018.02. Stop calling it v18.01, you versionist obsoletophobe.
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@kazitor I think you missed the part where the "developer" dictated the contents of that page on microcassette and the secretary misunderstood "32" as "3-Q".
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@Luhmann said in Automation!:
It started the update process for the device after warning that the update could take several hours(!) it plotted along for half an hour to finish with the notice that it couldn't update because my pc doesn't have 14GB free on the C-drive. Duh. It's 70GB contains almost only Windows and shitty apps that don't handle being installed on D:. Don't mind that the D-drive has 206 GB free. No it needs to take a backup of the device's 14GB (of witch only 6GB is in use) to the damn c-drive.
GAAAARRRRMIIIINNNNN!Was it trying to write to C:\ProgramData, or somewhere in your profile? If the latter, well, you have only yourself to blame for not moving that to D.
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@Luhmann said in Automation!:
shitty apps that don't handle being installed on D:
'pears you underbudgeted there.
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@dcon said in Automation!:
I have a Garmin for those times I don't want to use my phone. Forget the model, but it was one of those you could get with a lifetime map update. It's simple. Plug it in. Let program push the data. Done. (I did have to buy a sim card otherwise the map updates wouldn't fit)
I used to have one of those. (Some burglar, pawn shop or unsuspecting pawn shop customer has it now.) I only remember it notifying me once of a map update (but that may have been the only time I ever connected it to a computer), and it was just about that simple.
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@kazitor said in Automation!:
@Eric-Ray I, uh... so "q" is near "2", I get that, but... how did they manage to capitalise it?
Autocorrect for "third quarter" abbreviation?
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@pie_flavor said in Automation!:
@Parody Buy a cheapshit Android from seven years ago, root it, uninstall everything that isn't required by Google Maps, install a huge SD card, get a free SIM card from FreedomPop, and download maps before going anywhere rural. Problem solved, no?
Not quite. I still get a very blank look from the dealer when I ask if they have an upgrade package for replacing the radio unit with a tablet-holder.
There's just no space anywhere in the dashboard for screen, without blocking vents or controls. Not even in supposedly "working cars" like vans, the users of which may have install an aftermarket laptop-stand to get their data-entry going.
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@acrow You can't get a suction cup stand for the windshield? That's where we put ours.
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@pie_flavor said in Automation!:
@acrow You can't get a suction cup stand for the windshield? That's where we put ours.
In the UK you're already pushing the law to mount a phone or Sat Nav on the windscreen, there's no way you'd get away with putting a tablet up there.
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@Eric-Ray said in Automation!:
Presumably, 3Q is triacontakaidecimal, and there was a 122-bit version of Vista that was far ahead of its time.
It's just a typo. They meant Vista 3qubit.
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@kazitor said in Automation!:
@Eric-Ray I, uh... so "q" is near "2", I get that, but... how did they manage to capitalise it?
I'd guess French keyboard layout, where
2requires pressingshift(yes, I know...). But thenqis no longer right next to it (it'sa), so getting toqrequires an even bigger typo.
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@pie_flavor said in Automation!:
@acrow You can't get a suction cup stand for the windshield? That's where we put ours.
I could. But I don't want
a) suction cups. They fail at random times, except in dead winter when they fail consistently.
b) obstructions to my already limited view of the outside world. I'd take out the rear-view mirror immediately if I could legally do so. Yes, I'm slightly taller than average.There's a lot of empty space on top of the console, under the windscreen, but I don't want to damage the faux leather with strong adhesives. ...But I may have to, anyway, if I want a properly placed monitor there. Or, I may end up placing a monitor on top/front of the rear-view mirror (one of those mirror-shaped ones). Right now, my traffic camera is behind the rear-view mirror, so it's not blocking my view.
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@acrow I was quite glad when I found out on my car I could move the rear view mirror downward.
Now in many cases if I'm in the right-hand lane and the traffic light is next to the road, I can just see the light in the gap between the rear view mirror and the top of the window.
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@HardwareGeek said in Automation!:
@dcon said in Automation!:
I have a Garmin for those times I don't want to use my phone. Forget the model, but it was one of those you could get with a lifetime map update. It's simple. Plug it in. Let program push the data. Done. (I did have to buy a sim card otherwise the map updates wouldn't fit)
I used to have one of those. (Some burglar, pawn shop or unsuspecting pawn shop customer has it now.) I only remember it notifying me once of a map update (but that may have been the only time I ever connected it to a computer), and it was just about that simple.
Two or three years ago, a good friend of mine still had a GPS. I don't know if it was Garmin or not, but he knows I work in IT and so he thought I could somehow hack its firmware and update the maps myself. The official software update costed $99 which was more than he paid for the device (pretty sure he bought it used).
This same friend always comes to me with hairbrained tech ideas. "Oh, you work with computers so this'll be easy!" Then he spouts off some scheme that would take thousands of man-hours and still not be technically feasible.
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@HardwareGeek said in Automation!:
I only remember it notifying me once of a map update (but that may have been the only time I ever connected it to a computer)
The host program notifies me that maps are available. (It runs at startup as a tray icon)
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@kazitor said in Automation!:
@Eric-Ray I, uh... so "q" is near "2", I get that, but... how did they manage to capitalise it?
Maybe they handwrote it in cursive
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@mott555 said in Automation!:
@HardwareGeek said in Automation!:
@dcon said in Automation!:
I have a Garmin for those times I don't want to use my phone. Forget the model, but it was one of those you could get with a lifetime map update. It's simple. Plug it in. Let program push the data. Done. (I did have to buy a sim card otherwise the map updates wouldn't fit)
I used to have one of those. (Some burglar, pawn shop or unsuspecting pawn shop customer has it now.) I only remember it notifying me once of a map update (but that may have been the only time I ever connected it to a computer), and it was just about that simple.
Two or three years ago, a good friend of mine still had a GPS. I don't know if it was Garmin or not, but he knows I work in IT and so he thought I could somehow hack its firmware and update the maps myself. The official software update costed $99 which was more than he paid for the device (pretty sure he bought it used).
This same friend always comes to me with hairbrained tech ideas. "Oh, you work with computers so this'll be easy!" Then he spouts off some scheme that would take thousands of man-hours and still not be technically feasible.
But Garmin map unlocks are easy...?
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@sloosecannon But can't you send files to serial ports using a specific path?
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@pie_flavor said in Automation!:
@sloosecannon But can't you send files to serial ports using a specific path?
You can use DOS commands to send a bunch of bytes to a COM port at the default serial settings, but normally you would want to control the serial settings and build a communications protocol on top of that.
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@Parody said in Automation!:
normally you would want to control the serial settings
The MODE command is your friend (I've not checked it still works in modern Windows, but given the amount of retrocompatibility, it probably does).
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@Parody Right, but if you pipe a file into that, then all you have to do is make sure the file represents a snapshot of the 'update the thing' protocol.
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@sloosecannon said in Automation!:
The program looks like the amount of time spent on it was about an hour. It's designed for professionals who know what they're doing. And it's still better than a consumer oriented product.
Sorry about the delay replying... The key part of the above is "professionals who know what they're doing", needless to say. A "consumer oriented product" must deal with the universe's general solution to an "idiot-proof" device: a better idiot, and they are universally bad at it. Or they make it hard to deal with for people who do know what they are doing. Or both.
That said, the described process for the Navman is ... suboptimal, shall we say, even on the scale of things for countering the "better idiot" defense...
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@Zerosquare said in Automation!:
@Parody said in Automation!:
normally you would want to control the serial settings
The MODE command is your friend (I've not checked it still works in modern Windows, but given the amount of retrocompatibility, it probably does).
It does, indeed, exist in my Win10-64 machine that has never had an earlier version of Windows installed.
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@pie_flavor said in Automation!:
@sloosecannon But can't you send files to serial ports using a specific path?
The path is both more and less specific than you think. COM1 is the "historically" first serial port (my machine has only one serial port, but it is COM3 because it is a USB serial port embedded in my firewall). Any file-oriented command that you ask to write data to any file whose name part is COM1 will go to the serial port, unless the given path (e.g.
C:\PathThatDoesNotExistinC:\PathThatDoesNotExist\COM1.frobble) does not exist, except that/dev/COM1will work even if/devdoes not exist. And the extension doesn't matter either, or it is ignored, or something.
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@dcon said in Automation!:
I have a Garmin for those times I don't want to use my phone. Forget the model, but it was one of those you could get with a lifetime map update. It's simple. Plug it in. Let program push the data. Done. (I did have to buy a sim card otherwise the map updates wouldn't fit)
Wait. It stores map updates in the cloud? How's the data usage on it? ...Or did you perchance mean a memory card?
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@pie_flavor said in Automation!:
@Parody Right, but if you pipe a file into that, then all you have to do is make sure the file represents a snapshot of the 'update the thing' protocol.
How does your piped file handle responses? Those are usually part of a protocol.
Making a program lets you (as the device creator) help the users do what they need and help the device overcome its limited capabilities related to the program's functions as well as accomplish your own goals related to the device. Is it always necessary? No. Should you use simple and/or standardized methods of communication? I recommend it when possible, but requirements can take those options away. Sometimes you just do what you have to do.
(Don't get me wrong, though: the folks that made that particular GPS map update system did a bad job of it.)
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@Benjamin-Hall said in Automation!:
@Parody said in Automation!:
@Watson Sounds about right. I always thought the only approved way to update those dedicated navigation systems was to buy a new one.
The other way is to go to the dealer, pay
x ERR_INT_OVERFLOWand hope they don't brick the system.Dunno, my father's Mazda 6's update process is kinda easy. Sure, the app did crash before writing to the SD card, but it was able to resume download following a subsequent launch and then i just plugged it into the unit and it worked, automatically. Actually, so automagically that I had to check if the maps version got bumped, caused it seem like it didn't do anything. (INB4, it probably didn't and it reads all the maps from the SD, nothing gets copied to the internal memory).
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@pie_flavor said in Automation!:
Google Maps
Well, I was using Garmin when I traveled along there. I used a map created from Openstreetmap data. There, that "road" was an agricultural track. But on Google Maps, it's just a road
Just click on the "I"(nfo) symbol on the image in the link, and you'll see that.
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Here's my own "I wish they hadn't done it this way" story:
I have an old MP3 player/FM radio receiver, one that has 128MB of internal storage and supports up to 128MB SmartMedia cards. It's about 2" square and slightly thicker than a AA battery, which is what you use to power the thing. The primary control is a two-way joystick that also presses in; it was great for skipping tracks, scanning through stations or longer files, and buzzing through the limited menus. I used it for years for exercise and other activities.
It even has a USB port, but here things go wrong. First, the port is a non-standard smaller one; it's neither Mini nor Micro, but a third D-shaped one. I happen to have two cables for it because the same port was also used on a camera I have from that time, but they're not too common. More importantly, though, the device doesn't implement Mass Storage and predates MTP. If you want to mess with the internal storage you have to use the program the company made, and that program was designed for Windows 98 and doesn't work too well nowadays. In the late 2000s/early 2010s someone had done some work reverse-engineering it, but I don't think their project was ever stable. By that time I'd bought a SanDisk Clip to replace my old player.
That player still works, but it's pretty much stuck with the music that's on it.
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@BernieTheBernie said in Automation!:
There, that "road" was an agricultural track. But on Google Maps, it's just a road
There are “roads” near me that you can't drive on without a permit from the local council because they're inside a park in the bit that's not open for motor traffic. But almost all the online mapping applications (that I've seen) mark them as ordinary roads and so give the most confusing directions near the park gates, or just get their layout entirely wrong with no basis in reality at all (hello, Bing Maps!). OpenStreetMap gets closest to what is really going on.
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@BernieTheBernie
This is an issue with Google maps ... it really isn't accurate enough in many situations for anything except car navigation. It at best knows a road and a cycleway. If you are looking for a cycle map I adviseIt takes the OMS base and adapts it to fit the cycling use case better.
Openmtbmap.org - Mountainbike and Hiking Maps based on Openstreetmap