Dawn: the SUBLEQ OS by Geri
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@topspin Besides, SUBLEQ seems rather wasteful. Each instruction is apparently encoded by three addresses, making the instructions much larger than the average x86 one. That's going to make the I-cache situation even worse. Additionally, each instruction is possibly a branch. That's going to make any sort of pipelining/super-scalar/speculative execution not-fun.
As has already been said, this is fine for a project somebody is doing for fun. It's probably fairly easy to get started - writing a SUBLEQ-emulator is (probably) going to be way easier than writing one for a more complex architecture (the majority of code will be dealing with providing IO facilities, I'd guess).
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@Zerosquare said in Dawn: the SUBLEQ OS by Geri:
Sure, sooner or later you'll end up in a corner, and you won't compete with current OSes, but you can still do a lot. Examples: Classic MacOS, Acorn RiscOS, Atari TOS.
Also, you get some… “interesting”… systems if you have CPU cores that have no protection levels, but where you've got plenty of CPU cores that are physically separated from each other and can only communicate via message passing. Those systems are very much not like normal OSs.
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@HardwareGeek said in Dawn: the SUBLEQ OS by Geri:
the performance of RISC vs. CISC is more-or-less a toss-up
Right now, there are two Big Dogs in general purpose CPUs. x86 (and more particularly derivatives like ia_64) tend to have the edge for sheer speed, and ARM tends to be better for performance-per-watt. Different (physical) applications tend to be keener on one of those or the other…
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@dkf said in Dawn: the SUBLEQ OS by Geri:
@HardwareGeek said in Dawn: the SUBLEQ OS by Geri:
the performance of RISC vs. CISC is more-or-less a toss-up
Right now, there are two Big Dogs in general purpose CPUs. x86 (and more particularly derivatives like ia_64) tend to have the edge for sheer speed, and ARM tends to be better for performance-per-watt. Different (physical) applications tend to be keener on one of those or the other…
It could have been MIPS instead of ARM if they didn't make the fatal mistake of ignoring the low-power market. Shame really.
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MIPS is OK, but I've never heard anything that they do better than ARM.
And the PIC32 mentioned above is a bad way to experience MIPS. Microchip took a MIPS core, and added their secret sauce: WTFy hardware bugs. Not just the on-chip peripherals, they somehow managed to introduce bugs into the core CPU. For example, at least some of the chips have a bug that can cause memory read/writes to occur twice if they get interrupted. Which is very fun to track down for registers where access has side effects (queuing/dequeing hardware FIFOs...)
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@Zerosquare said in Dawn: the SUBLEQ OS by Geri:
For example, at least some of the chips have a bug that can cause memory read/writes to occur twice if they get interrupted.
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@Gurth said in Dawn: the SUBLEQ OS by Geri:
@Groaner said in Dawn: the SUBLEQ OS by Geri:
@Gurth said in Dawn: the SUBLEQ OS by Geri:
@Applied-Mediocrity said in Dawn: the SUBLEQ OS by Geri:
So what you're saying is that there's no practical use for this project whatsoever?
You’re saying that as if this is a problem.
Damn right it's a problem! People who build toy projects that aren't instant market leaders at what they do must be immediately and mercilessly ripped apart by us critics, who haven't built anything comparable on our own!
This is why I tend to not share anything I work on with other people until I consider it finished.
I see this attitude sometimes in response to indie games. The huge amount of free-to-play content has conditioned a fair number of consumers into expecting AAA quality out of everything they see and getting it for free, as if you need a loss-leading $100 million budget to even capture their attention.
And then they get all skinflinty when it comes to price. If you slap on a $60 price tag, they expect AAA, even though the price for a AAA title should really be $80 or more today due to inflation. The only silver lining is that the big studios have realized the new calculus and are focusing their efforts on low-risk products, leaving the indie developer plenty of room to experiment and innovate.
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@Groaner said in Dawn: the SUBLEQ OS by Geri:
I see this attitude sometimes in response to indie games.
Funny to see how you reply seriously to my mostly joking reply to what I perceived to be a joke from you :)
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@Gurth said in Dawn: the SUBLEQ OS by Geri:
@Groaner said in Dawn: the SUBLEQ OS by Geri:
I see this attitude sometimes in response to indie games.
Funny to see how you reply seriously to my mostly joking reply to what I perceived to be a joke from you :)
What can I say? Not only is it a bit of a frustration, but the best humor is rooted in reality.
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@dkf said in Dawn: the SUBLEQ OS by Geri:
@HardwareGeek said in Dawn: the SUBLEQ OS by Geri:
the performance of RISC vs. CISC is more-or-less a toss-up
Right now, there are two Big Dogs in general purpose CPUs. x86 (and more particularly derivatives like ia_64) tend to have the edge for sheer speed, and ARM tends to be better for performance-per-watt. Different (physical) applications tend to be keener on one of those or the other…
My understanding is that, deep down, x86/x64 CPUs are essentially very similar to RISC CPUs anyway. Is that correct?
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@Groaner said in Dawn: the SUBLEQ OS by Geri:
the best humor is rooted in reality.
And the worst is rooted in really bad puns.
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@admiral_p said in Dawn: the SUBLEQ OS by Geri:
Is that correct?
They've got some extra circuitry for instruction decoding, including handling non-aligned accesses, but that's now a small fraction of the total gate area (even excluding the caches most mainline CPUs have). A much bigger impact on everything (area, power consumption, speed, etc) is the choices of the types of gates used; even within a technology type, there's some significant differences between the options available in terms of leakage current and sensitivity to input.
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@HardwareGeek said in Dawn: the SUBLEQ OS by Geri:
@Groaner said in Dawn: the SUBLEQ OS by Geri:
the best humor is rooted in reality.
And the worst is rooted in really bad puns.
Speaking of which, while one might criticize the OP for expending so much effort on an OISC platform, clearly it was a RISC worth taking.
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@Groaner Paging ... Oh, never mind.
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@Zerosquare said in Dawn: the SUBLEQ OS by Geri:
MIPS is OK, but I've never heard anything that they do better than ARM.
And the PIC32 mentioned above is a bad way to experience MIPS. Microchip took a MIPS core, and added their secret sauce: WTFy hardware bugs. Not just the on-chip peripherals, they somehow managed to introduce bugs into the core CPU. For example, at least some of the chips have a bug that can cause memory read/writes to occur twice if they get interrupted. Which is very fun to track down for registers where access has side effects (queuing/dequeing hardware FIFOs...)
Eh, you get errata on any processor. I was quite fond of the PIC32. The PIC24 had a much better one, you had to bump-start the I2C bus with a capacitively coupled pulse
Edit: The extra registers on MIPS should translate into better performance. Not sure if that's actually the case though.
Edit2: A big problem on the PIC32 was that DMA transfers stalled the core. Kinda made DMA a bit pointless.
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@Cursorkeys said in Dawn: the SUBLEQ OS by Geri:
Not sure if that's actually the case though.
You win some, you lose some. A big loss is that the cost of context switches is far higher.
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Alas, the freedom is "under rewrite". Rewriting freedom sounds like something our government likes to do.
From: http://gerigeri.uw.hu/DawnOS/freedom.html
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@Cursorkeys said in Dawn: the SUBLEQ OS by Geri:
Eh, you get errata on any processor.
Sure, no processor is perfect. But Microchip's uCs tend to have lots of them, even for relatively low-complexity chips. And they include some that are so blatant they should have been caught by elementary testing, and even in basic stuff (how hard is it to make a bug-free UART or SPI module? That's a project you'd give as an exercise to students, and their product line has been going for something like 25 years at this point!)
My favorite Microchip errata was "the core randomly skips instructions if temperature is below xx °C" (with probability inversely proportional to temperature). I'm glad I never used that part!
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@Adynathos Pepperidge Farm remembers : click.
Copypasting for future generations. I think I've seen this somewhere in this thread before.Imagine the most dystropic world you can:
-There are computers, but they instruction set and hardware set is so complex that nobody on the entry world fully understands how they work.
-Imagine that software development become so complex and expensive that basically no software is being written any more, only ,,apps'' designed in ,,devtools''.
-Imagine that opening a generic picture file needs more complex algorythms than sending a rocket with persons to land on the moon.
-Imagine a world, where the education of the students on computers is about showing the shapes of computers, and they call it ,,science''.
-Imagine a world where being an IT professional means fake-expertising a $30000 hardware with clicking in a specific software basically as a teached operator, with a 0.001% efficiency rate teached by fake professionals payed by corporations through bribed public servants - from your tax.
-Imagine a world, where they capture every button you pressed down, where the network providers are directly connected to national surviellance.
-Imagine a computer, which requires 1 billion transistors to flicker the cursor on the screen.
-Imagine a world which was not able to show up any kind of technological innovation in the last 20 years.
-Imagine a world, where computers are driven by software written from 400 million lines of source code.
-Imagine a world, where the biggest 20 technology corporation with total 2 million employers and 100 billion usd revenue groups up to introduce a new standard. And they are unable to write even a compiler within 15 years.
I have bad news: This is not an imagination, this is our current world.
Dawn operating system and its underlying hardware specifications meant to liberate people from the imperialistic opression.
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Anime: Gunsmith Cats...
Anyway, this discussion as made me realize that we MUST DO THE FOLLOWING:
MIGRATE FORUM TO DISCOURSE RUNNING UNDER DAWN!
@Ben-L Start the migration! More performant forum on the way!
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@strangeways Welcome back!
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Too bad the forum no longer uses Discourse. Otherwise that statement may have been actually true.
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@CHUDbert I support this, minus the Dawn bit.
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@Cursorkeys said in Dawn: the SUBLEQ OS by Geri:
The PIC24 had a much better one, you had to bump-start the I2C bus with a capacitively coupled pulse
Wait what?
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@gordonjcp said in Dawn: the SUBLEQ OS by Geri:
@Cursorkeys said in Dawn: the SUBLEQ OS by Geri:
The PIC24 had a much better one, you had to bump-start the I2C bus with a capacitively coupled pulse
Wait what?
It was ridiculous and took a long while to get published as errata (PIC24FJ16GA02 in my case):
- Module: I2C (I2C1, SDA Line State)
When using I2C1, the SDA1 line state may not be
detected properly unless it is first held low for
150 ns after enabling the I2C module.
In Master mode, this error may cause a bus collision
to occur instead of a Start bit transmission.
Transmissions after the SDA1 pin that have been
held low will occur correctly.Edit: Also, nice wording there Microchip. It wasn't 'may' it was 'always, every damn part'.
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It's always "may", even when it is a design error that causes the problem to occur every single time. And when you report suspected hardware bugs, you're always told you're the first one to encounter the issue, even when several persons on forums confirm they reported the exact same problem. (Public bug-trackers aren't really a thing in electronics hardware. Companies don't like to admit they messed up, since the fix may be a costly PCB rework or trashing the boards that have already been manufactured.)
It's not Microchip-specific by the way, virtually all semiconductors vendors do that.
At least Microchip has the honesty of listing their hardware bugs in a document called "errata", unlike another company that disingenuously called that document "application hints".
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@pie_flavor said in Dawn: the SUBLEQ OS by Geri:
@strangeways
Welcome back!here we comeMuch better.
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@wger4 said in Dawn: the SUBLEQ OS by Geri:
This operating system was already posted here
Link or it didn't happen...
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@wger4 said in Dawn: the SUBLEQ OS by Geri:
@Jaloopa It runs chess and snake.
Sounds kinky, downloading!
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@admiral_p said in Dawn: the SUBLEQ OS by Geri:
@witchdoctor said in Dawn: the SUBLEQ OS by Geri:
@blakeyrat said in Dawn: the SUBLEQ OS by Geri:
Does the cartoon this one comes from even claim the character is human?
The previous one was at least of a character that was supposed to be creepy. This one seems to be creepy solely due to artistic incompetence.
Apparently hotlinking isn't allowed, BTW.
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@wger4 said in Dawn: the SUBLEQ OS by Geri:
OS have to manually turn off all the cores and copy the instruction pointer of processes.
If all the cores are turn off, who the running does instruction pointer to be getting of?
@wger4 said in Dawn: the SUBLEQ OS by Geri:
Starting them goes like this as well.
Clearly, in order to start you must first stop. I approve.
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@wger4 said in Dawn: the SUBLEQ OS by Geri:
able to watch the same 360p videos.
But you just said...
@wger4 said in Dawn: the SUBLEQ OS by Geri:
the same movies (usually in different format)
Obviously they were not the same.
@wger4 said in Dawn: the SUBLEQ OS by Geri:
its just the stupidity of the developers...
Indeed, we moved off of stupid almost-not-compressed each-frame-is-a-raw-bitmap-lol formats to now-you-need-more-maths-but-the-file-is-massively-smaller formats. Tradeoffs and all that...
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@wger4 said in Dawn: the SUBLEQ OS by Geri:
@admiral_p Anime is very diverse, just like movies. But i cant give detailed explanations, i am personally not that big weeb, but it helps bonding with the community.
So you do it to "fit in". I suppose I can't fault you for implementing such a mentality.
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@wger4 said in Dawn: the SUBLEQ OS by Geri:
The os can use mouse layer supplyed by the hardware (or emulator).
So you're defining hardware other than the CPU. I must have missed that in the intro-blurb. It would make sense why the emulator provided in the download does not show a cursor.
@wger4 said in Dawn: the SUBLEQ OS by Geri:
If you dont use this feature, then yes, it will have to render it, and then it will stutter.
Good to know the fallback works quite well...
@wger4 said in Dawn: the SUBLEQ OS by Geri:
The mouse and keyboard press are being polled approx 120 times per second, depending on the speed of the system, but the rendering goes only with a couple of fps (on current emulators).
I don't understand this statement. Are there actual systems "out there" that you've tested this on? Or is this a goal?
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@wger4 said in Dawn: the SUBLEQ OS by Geri:
then it will run the tasks on a built-in emulator,
WHEN WAS THIS EVEN MENTIONED????
@wger4 said in Dawn: the SUBLEQ OS by Geri:
its recommended to have at least two core.
This was also not mentioned anywhere. Unless users are meant to understand that's what "Big-endian 64-bit SUBLEQ CPU" necessarily means.
@wger4 said in Dawn: the SUBLEQ OS by Geri:
not yet got used to this portal engine
When you do, I request that you shelve your understanding of it, and then start thinking of it as a "forum".
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@admiral_p said in Dawn: the SUBLEQ OS by Geri:
@wger4 said in Dawn: the SUBLEQ OS by Geri:
@Applied-Mediocrity The platform have no paging or process separation, or even privilige levels. Originally i planned to ask permission from users if a process wanted to access outside its directory or in cases like that... But i realised its futile, and i didnt added anything like that. I didnt even added multi-user support.
You should add in the Guru Meditation error. Go on, do it!
I got an IO error with a very large number (presumably the byte number in the "disk" it expected it to be in). Does that count?
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@wger4 said in Dawn: the SUBLEQ OS by Geri:
I cant make it work without priviliges and process separation.
You can't make privileges and process separation without privileges and process separation. Got it.
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@wger4 said in Dawn: the SUBLEQ OS by Geri:
i manufacture a kick scooter.
I think it's more like, your crayon-driven plans for a kick scooter...
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@pie_flavor said in Dawn: the SUBLEQ OS by Geri:
@wger4 Welcome, lurker!
Oh, damn, you got to them first. Sorry other forumgoers for my apparent lapse in cognition...
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@Applied-Mediocrity said in Dawn: the SUBLEQ OS by Geri:
horse apples
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@NeighborhoodButcher said in Dawn: the SUBLEQ OS by Geri:
effectively a slow real-mode-style OS
It's only slow because there are no CPUs that implement the instruction set natively. If there were, presumably it would be faster.
As is, it needs emulation.
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@izzion said in Dawn: the SUBLEQ OS by Geri:
@Cursorkeys
Wait, so traps are dividing by zero?I think the divide by zero was caught by a trap, but I can't tell...
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@wger4 said in Dawn: the SUBLEQ OS by Geri:
it will not be secure for
variousany of usercasesFixed that for you. It's insecure literally by design!
@wger4 said in Dawn: the SUBLEQ OS by Geri:
they get a platform which is magnitudes easyer than anything else and its fun to deal with it,
Debatable. Just because there are less instructions in your book, doesn't mean it's easier or more fun to play.
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@wger4 said in Dawn: the SUBLEQ OS by Geri:
I added some informations to the webpage from my previous reply. I think i will finally replace the webpage to some newer fashion in the next month.
How is that coming along, by the way? I eat informations.
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@Applied-Mediocrity said in Dawn: the SUBLEQ OS by Geri:
for reasons somewhat trivial and subleqtive.
What did you expect, honestly? Really, knowing all you know about the theme, function, and clientele of this forum?
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@wger4 said in Dawn: the SUBLEQ OS by Geri:
@Applied-Mediocrity You dont have to apologize, you did nothing against me, speaking from security is totally valid.
However, 9 from 10 people (speaking of regular people) will run lady gaga paparazzi.mp3.exe without even thinking on it (yes, even clicking on run aniway), so the current problem with security is how to educate the users when they cant even understand what is the difference bethwen google and a website url is.
Trends indicate leaning away from education and instead just handholding them away from doing things, I think. But I have no research to back up my claim.