Well done, Blizzard, even *you* are officially promoting gambling
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@Magus said in Well done, Blizzard, even *you* are officially promoting gambling:
Blah, blah, Activision can do no wrong, business practices specifically designed to make people make unhealthy decisions are for the best of users. Did I get that right?
No.... not at all.
We just think comparing loot boxes to gambling is apples to oranges.
They're both round... and have a bright color, and come from trees, and are classified as fruit. So there is a lot in common, but not enough to say apples ARE oranges.
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@xaade The problem with gambling is that it causes obsessive behavior. Loot boxes have the same problem.
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@Magus Gaming in general has the same problem.
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@loopback0 But the only kind of 'gaming' that consists of 'insert money, results are according to chance' is a little thing we like to call gambling.
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@loopback0 said in Well done, Blizzard, even *you* are officially promoting gambling:
@Magus Gaming in general has the same problem.
Yes, games like WoW actually exploit that same psychological drive, albeit to a lesser degree. It's a principle based on something discovered in a Skinner Box. It has been found experimentally that if you give someone a reward every time for doing something he'll tire of this action fast. It's much better to give out a reward at random.
That's why quite a number of quests in WoW where you have to "collect 10 hog ears" don't drop said ears every time you kill a hog. No, you'll get an ear maybe every third time. That's the aforementioned principle in action (I think I even remember a self-referential quest in WoW where a quest giver asks how all those wolves survived without a liver given the fact that only every second wolf contained one).
And as for @anotherusername doubting that Loot Boxes are not gambling because there's "no monetary value" to the win: That's not how it works either. A reward can be anything as long as it has an intrinsic positive value to the person getting rewarded.
For some, yes, that is money. For others it's that feeling that they're one step closer to having fully colour-coordinated clothing on their virtual character.
Perception of what makes a reward can be weird. Example: Your child acting up? It might just feel neglected. Yes, you may then scold the child for acting up - but that doesn't matter so much - the child was rewarded by your attention. Expect more tantrums in the future.
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@loopback0 Additionally, as a Path of Exile player, my outlook on random loot is this:
The cool random loot is incredibly rare, so after thousands of hours, I've only ever found one Shavronne's Wrappings. But I wasn't spending my time grinding for a Shavronne's Wrappings: I was trying to push farther through challenges, which even average items can get me through, and I can trade with players to offset some of the other randomness, using value I do find. I could grind for specific items, and some do, but the items aren't an end: the challenges you complete are.
With loot boxes, the items are the end. And when you invest money in them, you feel cheated when you don't get what you want, even if it was a 1:1000000 chance. That's if they bother to tell you the chances, which Blizzard isn't a fan of: if you hear how rare something is, you're less likely to do the initial buy in and get hooked. And they can't have that, no sir, that would not be more free compulsive money spending.
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@Magus said in Well done, Blizzard, even *you* are officially promoting gambling:
Blah, blah, Activision can do no wrong, business practices specifically designed to make people make unhealthy decisions are for the best of users. Did I get that right?
No, because you didn't acknowledge that the last country to make this stuff illegal had a definition which perfectly lined up with mine and therefore specifically excludes Overwatch. I'm supposed to take Belgium's law as the gospel truth because they agree with you but you should completely ignore the Netherlands because they agree with me?
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@pie_flavor Encouraging compulsive spending is immoral. You can 'um, actually' all you want. It doesn't make this less evil.
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@Magus said in Well done, Blizzard, even *you* are officially promoting gambling:
@pie_flavor Encouraging compulsive spending is immoral. You can 'um, actually' all you want. It doesn't make this less evil.
So if I understand you correctly, you are saying that it does not matter one fig what a country passed as law whether or not someone should believe what you are saying. Which is strange because that's the entire point of the thread.
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@pie_flavor The entire point of the thread is that one more country has realized that your idol is immoral and encourages ruining people's lives.
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@Magus said in Well done, Blizzard, even *you* are officially promoting gambling:
@pie_flavor The entire point of the thread is that one more country has realized that your idol is immoral and encourages ruining people's lives.
One country. Not one more country, one country. Because all other countries with laws on the subject agree with me.
UK law:Where prizes are successfully restricted for use solely within the game, such in-game features would not be licensable gambling
In our view, the ability to convert in-game items into cash, or to trade them (for other items of value), means they attain a real world value and become articles of money or money’s worth. Where facilities for gambling are offered using such items, a licence is required in exactly the same manner as would be expected in circumstances where somebody uses or receives casino chips as a method of payment for gambling, which can later be exchanged for cash.
Singapore:
the Bill does not intend to cover social games in which players do not play to acquire a chance of winning money and where the game design does not allow the player to convert in-game credits to money or real merchandise outside the game
Australia:
(e) a service for the conduct of a game, where:
(i) the game is played for money or anything else of valueOther countries don't consider them gambling, even if they have laws about them anyway.
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@pie_flavor You don't get it at all. Those are not the part that makes this kind of manipulation immoral. They've managed to build a slot machine people are willing to shove money into, experiencing the same sense of loss and the same compulsion to keep putting in money as gambling, for no gain.
Does that really make it suddenly moral to you? They're engaging in the same behavior that makes casinos run a profit, except without having to pay out. It sure is great for Holy Activision the Pure.
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@Magus said in Well done, Blizzard, even *you* are officially promoting gambling:
@pie_flavor You don't get it at all. Those are not the part that makes this kind of manipulation immoral. They've managed to build a slot machine people are willing to shove money into, experiencing the same sense of loss and the same compulsion to keep putting in money as gambling, for no gain.
Does that really make it suddenly moral to you? They're engaging in the same behavior that makes casinos run a profit, except without having to pay out. It sure is great for Holy Activision the Pure.
So in other words, what countries pass as law is absolutely irrelevant and we're just going back to arguing.
Just so I've got this right. Because you sure seemed to be all up in arms about how Belgium's definition was so incredibly important.
In any case, I maintain that a system in which you gain nothing of monetary value and never lose does not qualify as gambling. That compulsion appears when the monetary value is there and that loss appears when you actually lose.
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@pie_flavor said in Well done, Blizzard, even *you* are officially promoting gambling:
That compulsion appears when the monetary value is there and that loss appears when you actually lose.
If even one person has ever had that compulsion in a case where there is no monetary gain, you are proven wrong entirely, forever.
And guess what? I exist.
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@Magus said in Well done, Blizzard, even *you* are officially promoting gambling:
@pie_flavor said in Well done, Blizzard, even *you* are officially promoting gambling:
That compulsion appears when the monetary value is there and that loss appears when you actually lose.
If even one person has ever had that compulsion in a case where there is no monetary gain, you are proven wrong entirely, forever.
Nope. Just because you have a very weak concept of how to spend your money doesn't mean that it's Blizzard's fault.
And guess what? I exist.
Possibly.
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@pie_flavor said in Well done, Blizzard, even *you* are officially promoting gambling:
Nope. Just because you have a very weak concept of how to spend your money doesn't mean that it's Blizzard's fault.
It's literally the only reason they do things the way they do! Predatory business practices don't come into existence without prey. You'll try to make some dumb comment about how this isn't predatory, but you can only do so by making one fatal mistake:
You are the one saying this doesn't happen to people. That no one is harmed by these business practices. I'm telling you that I have first-hand experience, and you're telling me that I'm wrong. The extent to which you are wrong is beyond words at this point. The facts are against you.
You are supporting evil.
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@Magus said in Well done, Blizzard, even *you* are officially promoting gambling:
@pie_flavor said in Well done, Blizzard, even *you* are officially promoting gambling:
Nope. Just because you have a very weak concept of how to spend your money doesn't mean that it's Blizzard's fault.
It's literally the only reason they do things the way they do! Predatory business practices don't come into existence without prey. You'll try to make some dumb comment about how this isn't predatory, but you can only do so by making one fatal mistake:
You are the one saying this doesn't happen to people. That no one is harmed by these business practices. I'm telling you that I have first-hand experience, and you're telling me that I'm wrong. The extent to which you are wrong is beyond words at this point. The facts are against you.
I am saying that your anecdote does not actually mean that the same is true of everyone else. I, for instance, have felt no compulsion at all in Overwatch. That doesn't mean there is no compulsion, it just means I think about things differently. In the same way that it is possible you think about things differently.
You are supporting evil.
No.
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@Magus said in Well done, Blizzard, even *you* are officially promoting gambling:
but the items aren't an end: the challenges you complete are.
For some the items are the end, or the items are the challenge.
Whether it's encouraging compulsive spending of time or money it's the same.I'm not saying these companies are without fault, just I don't think that loot boxes (which are also available from spending time) are worse than any other way of sucking people into a game.
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LANGUAGE, people. muted.
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@Gribnit said in Well done, Blizzard, even *you* are officially promoting gambling:
LANGUAGE, people. muted.
what?
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@pie_flavor said in Well done, Blizzard, even *you* are officially promoting gambling:
That doesn't mean there is no compulsion, it just means I think about things differently.
So you know that companies are taking advantage of a compulsion and you see no problem with this because it doesn't affect you. Great.
I have enough money that I have never put myself at any kind of risk on this stuff, but I know that there are many people at greater risk than me.
That is some grade A callousness you've got going on.
@loopback0 said in Well done, Blizzard, even *you* are officially promoting gambling:
For some the items are the end, or the items are the challenge.
Whether it's encouraging compulsive spending of time or money it's the same.I don't agree. Because in the case of items, they're almost all purely part of playing the game, ways to change up what you're doing, but as part of the natural scaling of the game. It's all there for a reason. Sure, most games want to keep you in them, but if they do that by having interesting and engaging content, I can't fault them for that: their purpose is entertainment.
But loot boxes are nothing like that. They operate purely on greed. You can get away with that a little bit in something like Vermintide 2, where they cannot be purchased with money, and where they slowly improve over time, because it fits the game, and it's always progression, such that even if you get things you don't want, you can dismantle it and make something you do at any time.
With something like Overwatch, you're building a collection, but you have no idea what the chances of getting what you want are, and you can't do much if things don't go the way you want. If the option to pay was gone, it would be far less horrible - but as it is, if you play 30 games and get nothing you want, the temptation to spend increases, and then will you really stop at one? After all, it's all so quick. Just 10 seconds of bright light and twirling, and you can have that one more chance. And the next one. And the next one. It's just so easy!
And that's why it exists.
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@Magus said in Well done, Blizzard, even *you* are officially promoting gambling:
@pie_flavor said in Well done, Blizzard, even *you* are officially promoting gambling:
That doesn't mean there is no compulsion, it just means I think about things differently.
So you know that companies are taking advantage of a compulsion and you see no problem with this because it doesn't affect you. Great.
I have enough money that I have never put myself at any kind of risk on this stuff, but I know that there are many people at greater risk than me.
That is some grade A callousness you've got going on.
"The logic only works on you, not me."
You're fun to read.
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@pie_flavor You're the one who acknowledged that there are people who are negatively affected by loot boxes as a business strategy, and that you don't care because it doesn't affect you. Not me.
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@Magus said in Well done, Blizzard, even *you* are officially promoting gambling:
@pie_flavor You're the one who acknowledged that there are people who are negatively affected by loot boxes as a business strategy, and that you don't care because it doesn't affect you. Not me.
I acknowledge that you are negatively affected by loot boxes as a business strategy, and the exact logic you're employing to say I'm meaningless is logic that says you're meaningless too.
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@loopback0 said in Well done, Blizzard, even *you* are officially promoting gambling:
@Magus said in Well done, Blizzard, even *you* are officially promoting gambling:
but the items aren't an end: the challenges you complete are.
For some the items are the end, or the items are the challenge.
Whether it's encouraging compulsive spending of time or money it's the same.I'm not saying these companies are without fault, just I don't think that loot boxes (which are also available from spending time) are worse than any other way of sucking people into a game.
Games aren't built to be played 24/7; the game designer can't do anything with your time so if you can't stop / self-limit your playing that's just sad (also see Korean Internet cafes having to bother tenants every so often so they won't exhaust themselves) and you need help (BTW: I wonder if there aren't some games with a built-in timer because of this). Since MMORPGs are likely using subscription models the game designer might embrace spacing things out because it might get you to stay for the next payment, so at least there can be time to reconsider your life choices up till the next payment.
When the game designer comes around to finance his business with loot boxes though he will try to manage both your time and your money, and now there
will be less of an incentive to put a spending limit in place. With these random payouts you don't want to give people time to think.
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@pie_flavor said in Well done, Blizzard, even *you* are officially promoting gambling:
@Magus said in Well done, Blizzard, even *you* are officially promoting gambling:
@pie_flavor The entire point of the thread is that one more country has realized that your idol is immoral and encourages ruining people's lives.
One country. Not one more country, one country. Because all other countries with laws on the subject agree with me.
UK law:Where prizes are successfully restricted for use solely within the game, such in-game features would not be licensable gambling
In our view, the ability to convert in-game items into cash, or to trade them (for other items of value), means they attain a real world value and become articles of money or money’s worth. Where facilities for gambling are offered using such items, a licence is required in exactly the same manner as would be expected in circumstances where somebody uses or receives casino chips as a method of payment for gambling, which can later be exchanged for cash.
Singapore:
the Bill does not intend to cover social games in which players do not play to acquire a chance of winning money and where the game design does not allow the player to convert in-game credits to money or real merchandise outside the game
Australia:
(e) a service for the conduct of a game, where:
(i) the game is played for money or anything else of valueOther countries don't consider them gambling, even if they have laws about them anyway.
The Australian law sounds like it could apply to lootboxes (even those in Overwatch) because people can give items and skins immaterial value due to envy. It's simply not been tested in court yet.
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@xaade said in Well done, Blizzard, even *you* are officially promoting gambling:
@JBert said in Well done, Blizzard, even *you* are officially promoting gambling:
@xaade said in Well done, Blizzard, even *you* are officially promoting gambling:
@dkf said in Well done, Blizzard, even *you* are officially promoting gambling:
@xaade said in Well done, Blizzard, even *you* are officially promoting gambling:
So, all they have to do is give players the option to trade what they get from loot boxes. Then the items will have intrinsic value.
This would be OK, except it'd be gambling with a potential for money laundering, and would thus be regulated very closely in many jurisdictions.
Then.... physical TCG would have a potential for money laundering too?
I would say yes, except that the logistics are far more complicated than digital "goods".
Stepping back.
I don't see loot boxes as being as problematic as gambling. Not any more than a hoarder collecting useless trinkets.
I think a big push against loot boxes tends to be the disparity between players that can afford them and players that cannot. It ruins the fun for people who don't want to sink tons of money into the game.
So, I think people are confusing motives here, and they'll pulled the wrong people in to solve the problem. Meaning, they're going to regret it when the government leverages this to regulate games more and more.
It's not just envy. Collectors throw money away at auctions? Fine, it's transparent and no other bidder loses money (only time or whatever the cost of being available in the bidding process), and the auction house gets a cut of the sale.
With loot boxes you need to acquire items through a raffle, and now the 'auction house' is extracting money from everyone (and while you could have a raffle where everyone wins something, a worthless prize might sometimes be worse than nothing). Guess why raffles tend to be restricted to non-profits in some countries?
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@JBert said in Well done, Blizzard, even *you* are officially promoting gambling:
I wonder if there aren't some games with a built-in timer.
It won't straight out kick you out, but Warframe has this:
Also, that's an example of a game, free to play no less, that takes all of this stuff seriously and cares for the customers more than for their bottom line:
(Sorry for Kotaku out of all places, seemed to be the best source at a glance)
They don't even have lootboxes at all. And they seem to be doing just great financially.
Man, if only companies like Activision-Blizzard and EA had enough funds and developers to make compelling games that would make money without trying to manipulate people... Sadly, that's highly unlikely, poor bastards are still operating from their mother's basements and barely make the ends meet...
ETA: I don't even play Warframe, so I'm not fanboying here. I saw the appeal, just didn't grip me as much. Maybe because I kept playing solo.
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@pie_flavor said in Well done, Blizzard, even *you* are officially promoting gambling:
I, for instance, have felt no compulsion at all in Overwatch.
Cool story, bro!
Look, it's not about you. It's about the fact (as evidenced by findings in multiple countries) that the system of allowing people to purchase loot boxes containing random items — possibly including something of high value (to them) — counts as gambling, and so is going to be regulated under the laws relating to gambling which are very restrictive in lots of places. There are ways to reduce the problems from this, such as making the primary way of earning loot boxes be playing the game (perhaps by rate-limiting purchases of loot boxes to one a day and increasing the perceived value of contents purchased) and making it so that direct purchases of things are possible instead of forcing everyone through the problem random mechanism. Or make it so that only cosmetic items can be purchased at all and gameplay-affecting items can only be earned through playing (and having purchased items always be account-bound). There's a whole range of possibilities. But if developers insist on making high-value items be available mainly through a mechanism that both includes an element of randomness and where repeated tries can be purchased, that counts as gambling in law and the developers should not be at all surprised when it counts as such for the purposes of regulation (and they get shut down for not having a license to operate a casino or other gambling establishment in that jurisdiction).
It's not about you. It's about applying existing limitations to situations that “look like a duck, walk like a duck, and quack like a duck”. That these are novel from your perspective is happenstance; they're not novel from the view of courts and legislatures.
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@Onyx Warframe also has you playing a weird creepy rubber-suit man and when the level's over you slot yourself into the plastic mold and are sold as an actual figure.
It's like one of the weirdest (in a truly unsettling way) games I've ever played. The funny thing is Bungie's Destiny is like the exact same game but without the creepy (it replaces the creepy with gibberish narration and thousands of hints at a backstory that it never bothers to tell you) and it does gangbusters business. (Somehow!)
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@Onyx said in Well done, Blizzard, even *you* are officially promoting gambling:
Also, that's an example of a game, free to play no less, that takes all of this stuff seriously and cares for the customers more than for their bottom line:
No it isn't.
It's mandatory in other countries and they just don't bother to remove it.
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@dkf said in Well done, Blizzard, even *you* are officially promoting gambling:
Or make it so
At one point ESO let you take the rewards from lootboxes and translate them into direct purchases of items you actually wanted.
To them, lootboxes weren't a way to earn exorbitant money from the player, but a way for a player to get some cool random items for very cheap.
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@pie_flavor said in Well done, Blizzard, even *you* are officially promoting gambling:
In any case, I maintain that a system in which you gain nothing of monetary value and never lose does not qualify as gambling. That compulsion appears when the monetary value is there and that loss appears when you actually lose.
Again, money is only one manifestation of a reward. Basically, anything which makes you feel good can be a reward.
The reverse also goes, by the way.
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@xaade said in Well done, Blizzard, even *you* are officially promoting gambling:
At one point ESO let you take the rewards from lootboxes and translate them into direct purchases of items you actually wanted.
? Their system hasn't changed. You can "break down" your loot box winnings into ... I dunno what they call them "crystal shards" or some shit and use the shards to buy the potential prize you wanted. I dunno if this runs afoul of Belgium law or not, but a lot of collectible card games also work this way-- if you get duplicate cards in a pack you can make them into a currency you can use to just buy shit.
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@Magus said in Well done, Blizzard, even *you* are officially promoting gambling:
if you play 30 games and get nothing you want, the temptation to spend increases
And on top of that for Overwatch, they have limited time events which also come with event exclusive skins that can only be unlocked during that event (or its anniversaries, where they add even more event exclusive skins).
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@xaade said in Well done, Blizzard, even *you* are officially promoting gambling:
@Onyx said in Well done, Blizzard, even *you* are officially promoting gambling:
Also, that's an example of a game, free to play no less, that takes all of this stuff seriously and cares for the customers more than for their bottom line:
No it isn't.
It's mandatory in other countries and they just don't bother to remove it.
are you on about? AFAIK Warframe has no lootboxes anywhere in it, and, to my knowledge, never did. Apart from that one thing described in TFA. And they removed it of their own volition. And that one, well:
drove studio Digital Extremes to quickly rethink the feature and patch it out with Hotfix 14.0.5 in the summer of 2014, a year after the game’s official launch.
That was in 2014. Years before this whole legislation thing ever happened.
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@dkf said in Well done, Blizzard, even *you* are officially promoting gambling:
Or make it so that only cosmetic items can be purchased at all and gameplay-affecting items can only be earned through playing (and having purchased items always be account-bound)
Like Overwatch.
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@Rhywden said in Well done, Blizzard, even *you* are officially promoting gambling:
@pie_flavor said in Well done, Blizzard, even *you* are officially promoting gambling:
In any case, I maintain that a system in which you gain nothing of monetary value and never lose does not qualify as gambling. That compulsion appears when the monetary value is there and that loss appears when you actually lose.
Again, money is only one manifestation of a reward. Basically, anything which makes you feel good can be a reward.
The reverse also goes, by the way.
Yes, and I note your omission of the words I was using, meaning you're making an irrelevant argument.
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@Onyx said in Well done, Blizzard, even *you* are officially promoting gambling:
@xaade said in Well done, Blizzard, even *you* are officially promoting gambling:
@Onyx said in Well done, Blizzard, even *you* are officially promoting gambling:
Also, that's an example of a game, free to play no less, that takes all of this stuff seriously and cares for the customers more than for their bottom line:
No it isn't.
It's mandatory in other countries and they just don't bother to remove it.
are you on about? AFAIK Warframe has no lootboxes anywhere in it, and, to my knowledge, never did. Apart from that one thing described in TFA. And they removed it of their own volition. And that one, well:
drove studio Digital Extremes to quickly rethink the feature and patch it out with Hotfix 14.0.5 in the summer of 2014, a year after the game’s official launch.
That was in 2014. Years before this whole legislation thing ever happened.
The context of that post was responding to a timer, or a suggestion to stop playing the game.
Not lootboxes.
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@pie_flavor said in Well done, Blizzard, even *you* are officially promoting gambling:
@Rhywden said in Well done, Blizzard, even *you* are officially promoting gambling:
@pie_flavor said in Well done, Blizzard, even *you* are officially promoting gambling:
In any case, I maintain that a system in which you gain nothing of monetary value and never lose does not qualify as gambling. That compulsion appears when the monetary value is there and that loss appears when you actually lose.
Again, money is only one manifestation of a reward. Basically, anything which makes you feel good can be a reward.
The reverse also goes, by the way.
Yes, and I note your omission of the words I was using, meaning you're making an irrelevant argument.
You're the one arguing that only monetary values make gambling. That is not so.
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@Rhywden said in Well done, Blizzard, even *you* are officially promoting gambling:
@pie_flavor said in Well done, Blizzard, even *you* are officially promoting gambling:
@Rhywden said in Well done, Blizzard, even *you* are officially promoting gambling:
@pie_flavor said in Well done, Blizzard, even *you* are officially promoting gambling:
In any case, I maintain that a system in which you gain nothing of monetary value and never lose does not qualify as gambling. That compulsion appears when the monetary value is there and that loss appears when you actually lose.
Again, money is only one manifestation of a reward. Basically, anything which makes you feel good can be a reward.
The reverse also goes, by the way.
Yes, and I note your omission of the words I was using, meaning you're making an irrelevant argument.
You're the one arguing that only monetary values make gambling. That is not so.
I used the words 'compulsion' and 'loss' because that was what defined gambling in a post above mine. If you cannot do the same then you are not responding to the same thing I am.
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@pie_flavor said in Well done, Blizzard, even *you* are officially promoting gambling:
@Rhywden said in Well done, Blizzard, even *you* are officially promoting gambling:
@pie_flavor said in Well done, Blizzard, even *you* are officially promoting gambling:
@Rhywden said in Well done, Blizzard, even *you* are officially promoting gambling:
@pie_flavor said in Well done, Blizzard, even *you* are officially promoting gambling:
In any case, I maintain that a system in which you gain nothing of monetary value and never lose does not qualify as gambling. That compulsion appears when the monetary value is there and that loss appears when you actually lose.
Again, money is only one manifestation of a reward. Basically, anything which makes you feel good can be a reward.
The reverse also goes, by the way.
Yes, and I note your omission of the words I was using, meaning you're making an irrelevant argument.
You're the one arguing that only monetary values make gambling. That is not so.
I used the words 'compulsion' and 'loss' because that was what defined gambling in a post above mine. If you cannot do the same then you are not responding to the same thing I am.
Yes, and? Compulsion can be had without monetary values and you can feel loss equally well without any money attached to it.
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@ChaosTheEternal said in Well done, Blizzard, even *you* are officially promoting gambling:
@Magus said in Well done, Blizzard, even *you* are officially promoting gambling:
if you play 30 games and get nothing you want, the temptation to spend increases
And on top of that for Overwatch, they have limited time events which also come with event exclusive skins that can only be unlocked during that event (or its anniversaries, where they add even more event exclusive skins).
Re: Heroes of the Storm, the current version has lootboxes like Overwatch but also a store where you can buy exactly what you want with either real money or compensation for duplicates. There's also daily quest rewards which can only be used to purchase Heroes or reroll loot boxes.
In recent months new item variants have been occasionally exclusive to real money purchase from the store, usually as part of a package of new items or bundled with a new Hero. Heroes has time-limited items as well.
Overall it's better than Overwatch's setup, but has the same problem with very few cool things (skins) and lots of junk (sprays, icons, etc.)
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@Rhywden said in Well done, Blizzard, even *you* are officially promoting gambling:
@pie_flavor said in Well done, Blizzard, even *you* are officially promoting gambling:
@Rhywden said in Well done, Blizzard, even *you* are officially promoting gambling:
@pie_flavor said in Well done, Blizzard, even *you* are officially promoting gambling:
@Rhywden said in Well done, Blizzard, even *you* are officially promoting gambling:
@pie_flavor said in Well done, Blizzard, even *you* are officially promoting gambling:
In any case, I maintain that a system in which you gain nothing of monetary value and never lose does not qualify as gambling. That compulsion appears when the monetary value is there and that loss appears when you actually lose.
Again, money is only one manifestation of a reward. Basically, anything which makes you feel good can be a reward.
The reverse also goes, by the way.
Yes, and I note your omission of the words I was using, meaning you're making an irrelevant argument.
You're the one arguing that only monetary values make gambling. That is not so.
I used the words 'compulsion' and 'loss' because that was what defined gambling in a post above mine. If you cannot do the same then you are not responding to the same thing I am.
Yes, and? Compulsion can be had without monetary values and you can feel loss equally well without any money attached to it.
To the extent that it constitutes gambling? Everything around me causes compulsion or loss.
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@pie_flavor said in Well done, Blizzard, even *you* are officially promoting gambling:
@Rhywden said in Well done, Blizzard, even *you* are officially promoting gambling:
@pie_flavor said in Well done, Blizzard, even *you* are officially promoting gambling:
@Rhywden said in Well done, Blizzard, even *you* are officially promoting gambling:
@pie_flavor said in Well done, Blizzard, even *you* are officially promoting gambling:
@Rhywden said in Well done, Blizzard, even *you* are officially promoting gambling:
@pie_flavor said in Well done, Blizzard, even *you* are officially promoting gambling:
In any case, I maintain that a system in which you gain nothing of monetary value and never lose does not qualify as gambling. That compulsion appears when the monetary value is there and that loss appears when you actually lose.
Again, money is only one manifestation of a reward. Basically, anything which makes you feel good can be a reward.
The reverse also goes, by the way.
Yes, and I note your omission of the words I was using, meaning you're making an irrelevant argument.
You're the one arguing that only monetary values make gambling. That is not so.
I used the words 'compulsion' and 'loss' because that was what defined gambling in a post above mine. If you cannot do the same then you are not responding to the same thing I am.
Yes, and? Compulsion can be had without monetary values and you can feel loss equally well without any money attached to it.
To the extent that it constitutes gambling? Everything around me causes compulsion or loss.
No, it doesn't. That's just you not understanding how our brain works.
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@Rhywden said in Well done, Blizzard, even *you* are officially promoting gambling:
@pie_flavor said in Well done, Blizzard, even *you* are officially promoting gambling:
@Rhywden said in Well done, Blizzard, even *you* are officially promoting gambling:
@pie_flavor said in Well done, Blizzard, even *you* are officially promoting gambling:
@Rhywden said in Well done, Blizzard, even *you* are officially promoting gambling:
@pie_flavor said in Well done, Blizzard, even *you* are officially promoting gambling:
@Rhywden said in Well done, Blizzard, even *you* are officially promoting gambling:
@pie_flavor said in Well done, Blizzard, even *you* are officially promoting gambling:
In any case, I maintain that a system in which you gain nothing of monetary value and never lose does not qualify as gambling. That compulsion appears when the monetary value is there and that loss appears when you actually lose.
Again, money is only one manifestation of a reward. Basically, anything which makes you feel good can be a reward.
The reverse also goes, by the way.
Yes, and I note your omission of the words I was using, meaning you're making an irrelevant argument.
You're the one arguing that only monetary values make gambling. That is not so.
I used the words 'compulsion' and 'loss' because that was what defined gambling in a post above mine. If you cannot do the same then you are not responding to the same thing I am.
Yes, and? Compulsion can be had without monetary values and you can feel loss equally well without any money attached to it.
To the extent that it constitutes gambling? Everything around me causes compulsion or loss.
No, it doesn't. That's just you not understanding how our brain works.
I could say the same to you.
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@pie_flavor You'd just be wrong. And it's pretty telling that @Rhywden and I agree on something.
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@pie_flavor said in Well done, Blizzard, even *you* are officially promoting gambling:
@Rhywden said in Well done, Blizzard, even *you* are officially promoting gambling:
@pie_flavor said in Well done, Blizzard, even *you* are officially promoting gambling:
@Rhywden said in Well done, Blizzard, even *you* are officially promoting gambling:
@pie_flavor said in Well done, Blizzard, even *you* are officially promoting gambling:
@Rhywden said in Well done, Blizzard, even *you* are officially promoting gambling:
@pie_flavor said in Well done, Blizzard, even *you* are officially promoting gambling:
@Rhywden said in Well done, Blizzard, even *you* are officially promoting gambling:
@pie_flavor said in Well done, Blizzard, even *you* are officially promoting gambling:
In any case, I maintain that a system in which you gain nothing of monetary value and never lose does not qualify as gambling. That compulsion appears when the monetary value is there and that loss appears when you actually lose.
Again, money is only one manifestation of a reward. Basically, anything which makes you feel good can be a reward.
The reverse also goes, by the way.
Yes, and I note your omission of the words I was using, meaning you're making an irrelevant argument.
You're the one arguing that only monetary values make gambling. That is not so.
I used the words 'compulsion' and 'loss' because that was what defined gambling in a post above mine. If you cannot do the same then you are not responding to the same thing I am.
Yes, and? Compulsion can be had without monetary values and you can feel loss equally well without any money attached to it.
To the extent that it constitutes gambling? Everything around me causes compulsion or loss.
No, it doesn't. That's just you not understanding how our brain works.
I could say the same to you.
Then tell me: How does it work? And where did you learn that? From what sources?
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@Magus said in Well done, Blizzard, even *you* are officially promoting gambling:
@pie_flavor You'd just be wrong. And it's pretty telling that @Rhywden and I agree on something.
I just see you adopting his usual tactics. He's irrational in general, and you're irrational on this one specific topic.