Big list of software that cannot handle spaces or accents in paths
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@topspin said in Big list of software that cannot handle spaces or accents in paths:
@gąska So does the user deal with IDs or is the user not allowed to talk about files without a GUI?
The latter. Except I'd say UI, not GUI. It's absolutely possible to make CLI that doesn't require the programs to deal with filenames, it's just more work on both the shell and the application side, and Linux app devs are .
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@boomzilla said in Big list of software that cannot handle spaces or accents in paths:
@gąska said in Big list of software that cannot handle spaces or accents in paths:
You absolutely did claim this. A weak unsupported claim with lots of weasel wording is still a claim.
At first I thought this was a clever imitation troll, but the longer it goes I think that you have learned the wrong lesson after certain interactions.
It did start as an imitation of a certain troll. But then he pulled this "I used 'I think' literally" and I just lost it. Yes, I got trolled hard. I easily get trolled by people being fucking idiots.
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@gąska said in Big list of software that cannot handle spaces or accents in paths:
@topspin said in Big list of software that cannot handle spaces or accents in paths:
@gąska So does the user deal with IDs or is the user not allowed to talk about files without a GUI?
The latter. Except I'd say UI, not GUI. It's absolutely possible to make CLI that doesn't require the programs to deal with filenames, it's just more work on both the shell and the application side, and Linux app devs are .
It also sounds like a lot more work for the users. File names seem pretty user friendly ways to deal with files. Is "it's just more work" a blakey-like cop out or do you have some ideas on how it could actually work?
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@boomzilla the idea is that the CLI converts all user-provided paths to IDs on input and IDs to paths on output. It would probably require strongly-typed CLI interfaces and additional adapters for dealing with files containing paths, and cannot be done without throwing entire POSIX out the window, but I don't see any reason why it couldn't be made so that interactive shells are as easy to use as those we have now. With the added benefit of argument splitting and escaping never fucking up paths.
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@gąska said in Big list of software that cannot handle spaces or accents in paths:
With the added benefit of argument splitting and escaping never fucking up paths.
I don't see how you get this from:
@gąska said in Big list of software that cannot handle spaces or accents in paths:
the CLI converts all user-provided paths to IDs on input and IDs to paths on output.
It seems pretty much identical to what we have now, really.
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@boomzilla the interactive shell is the only program dealing with paths - everything else uses IDs.
ls
spits out IDs.grep
accepts IDs. Pipes transfer over IDs. You don't have to worry about quoting and escaping arguments in nested scripts because they're always atomic IDs.
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@gąska said in Big list of software that cannot handle spaces or accents in paths:
@boomzilla the interactive shell is the only program dealing with paths - everything else uses IDs.
ls
spits out IDs.grep
accepts IDs. Pipes transfer over IDs. You don't have to worry about quoting and escaping arguments in nested scripts because they're always atomic IDs.This sounds dystopian.
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@boomzilla dystopian is what we have right now in Bash.
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@gąska said in Big list of software that cannot handle spaces or accents in paths:
It's kinda impressive how many hacks Linux people invent to get around not having actual features.
It's kind of impressive how deluded you are that you need something else.
Create and delete permissions on POSIX (including Linux, but not just there) is encoded as write permission to the directory. It's clearly separated from the permission to write to the file's contents. There might be a use case for separating create from delete, but I don't know it; please elucidate us as to a key use for that capability separation if you want to have a sensible discussion.
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@dkf said in Big list of software that cannot handle spaces or accents in paths:
please
elucidate usquote a peer reviewed study as to a key use for that capability separation if you want to have a sensible discussion.TFY
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@gąska said in Big list of software that cannot handle spaces or accents in paths:
made so that interactive shells are as easy to use as those we have now.
Talk about a low bar...
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@dkf said in Big list of software that cannot handle spaces or accents in paths:
@gąska said in Big list of software that cannot handle spaces or accents in paths:
It's kinda impressive how many hacks Linux people invent to get around not having actual features.
It's kind of impressive how deluded you are that you need something else.
Yeah, dot works well enough, why waste precious bytes on dedicated "hidden" attribute?
Create and delete permissions on POSIX (including Linux, but not just there) is encoded as write permission to the directory. It's clearly separated from the permission to write to the file's contents. There might be a use case for separating create from delete, but I don't know it; please elucidate us as to a key use for that capability separation if you want to have a sensible discussion.
I remember removing my own write and delete permissions from a specific file in browser AppData folder to prevent them from messing up my settings. The problem is that the entire rest of the folder needs full permissions for the browser to work correctly.
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@dkf said in Big list of software that cannot handle spaces or accents in paths:
There might be a use case for separating create from delete, but I don't know it;
Creating log files? Submitting reports? Any process that uses the file system for data transmission where the file creator is separate from the file consumer?
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@laoc said in Big list of software that cannot handle spaces or accents in paths:
Well, the second rwx is for a specific group. That the owner doesn't strictly have to be a member of, although only root can give files to such groups.
Out of curiosity (and because it's insanely difficult to google up) - what do owner permissions do when you give a file to a group? I'd imagine it would get totally ignored, but is it actually the case, or is there additional fuckery going on?
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@gąska AIUI, the most common use case is to let people provide files for network services in their home folder, a la
~/htdocs
. The folder and files are owned by the user and "grouped" by the network services group (which the user isn't in, because they're a human, not a service). The owner permissions let the user do whatever they want with the files, while the group permissions give the network services access to serve them.
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@twelvebaud oh, so it's not taking the file from the user to the group as much as changing which group the file permissions refer to? The owner is still the owner, even though they're not in the "owning" group anymore?
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@gąska Owner always uses owner, group is only used for other members of the group, world is only used for people outside the group.
This is not cumulative - if the mode bits are 707 then members of the owning group do not have access, but members outside it do.
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@pleegwat no, I'm asking whether setting ownership - not permissions, OWNERSHIP - to some group, removes ownership from the user.
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@gąska said in Big list of software that cannot handle spaces or accents in paths:
@pleegwat no, I'm asking whether setting ownership - not permissions, OWNERSHIP - to some group, removes ownership from the user.
A file's or directory's owner is wholly independent of its group. Usually they're related but they don't have to be.
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@mikehurley that's what I wanted to know. Thanks.
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@gąska said in Big list of software that cannot handle spaces or accents in paths:
@mikehurley that's what I wanted to know. Thanks.
See how much better a response you get when you ask nicely rather than "you're lying. Prove it!".?
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@tsaukpaetra if I asked nicely, would you have told me what APIs one can use on Windows to get CWD as handle rather than path?
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To any that come after the spat above, my pre-emptive response to why I said what I did (besides it being late at night and a bad mood):
I am here on this site under my own desire. I'm not here because it's required or mandated by any outside force.
I post because I want to. My thoughts are usually my own.
You CANNOT demand me to speak about something. And if you do, I'm fully within in rights and abilities to refuse. If you press the issue, I will press back. Attempting to force me to respond will likely cause me to do everything in my power to do the opposite.I would have been glad to look up MSDN for "find file by ID" or similar. It would lead me towards the APIs that take file handles as input, and while they may not do exactly as was described prior, it might have lead to a healthy discussion about it.
However, by coming at me with the ridiculous claim that just because I said something (using "weasel words" notwithstanding) that I'm required, no compulsively obligated to support it, you have effectively removed that desire to reply in good faith, and so you see my response.Hear this: unless you have more reason for me to supply supporting evidence for a statement made in passing than whargarble, I have no requirement to do so, and it is in discretion whether or not to comply.
One does not see a person in the street corner, hear him say something like "man, I don't know what to do, my daughters grades are all Fs and Ds." and then rush over demanding to hear the backstory and proof. This is effectively what happened, and when I said "sod off!" this was the response I was given.
I will not accept that, and cannot be forced to accept that, nor will I back down when someone tells me I "must" do something solely because I wrote something.
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@gąska said in Big list of software that cannot handle spaces or accents in paths:
@tsaukpaetra if I asked nicely, would you have told me what APIs one can use on Windows to get CWD as handle rather than path?
Yes. I would have likely failed in the exact requirement as specified, since said APIs do use string paths to obtain it first, but flies (even retarded ones like myself) are far more attracted to honey.
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@tsaukpaetra said in Big list of software that cannot handle spaces or accents in paths:
@gąska said in Big list of software that cannot handle spaces or accents in paths:
@tsaukpaetra if I asked nicely, would you have told me what APIs one can use on Windows to get CWD as handle rather than path?
Yes. I would have likely failed in the exact requirement as specified, since said APIs do use string paths to obtain it first
So, no.
but flies (even retarded ones like myself) are far more attracted to honey.
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@laoc said in Big list of software that cannot handle spaces or accents in paths:
There's certainly something to improve about that. The Windows way of using a sequence of 16-bit values that may or may not be well-formed and is treated to half-assed transformations like case folding on a file system level which may or may not be consistent with your locale or even defined is just as certainly not the one to go.
You know it might just be possible that BOTH Linux AND Windows suck? And that by saying "Linux sucks" I'm not also saying "and BTW Windows is really good". Did you stop to think of that?
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@blakeyrat said in Big list of software that cannot handle spaces or accents in paths:
You know it might just be possible that BOTH Linux AND Windows suck?
OMG IT'S HAPPENING! BLAKEY CRITICIZING 2000 MICROSOFT!
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@gąska said in Big list of software that cannot handle spaces or accents in paths:
@tsaukpaetra said in Big list of software that cannot handle spaces or accents in paths:
@gąska said in Big list of software that cannot handle spaces or accents in paths:
@tsaukpaetra if I asked nicely, would you have told me what APIs one can use on Windows to get CWD as handle rather than path?
Yes. I would have likely failed in the exact requirement as specified, since said APIs do use string paths to obtain it first
So, no.
Correct. However, I would accept my thoughts and recognizance are faulty much more readily than "you are required to answer is!"
but flies (even retarded ones like myself) are far more attracted to honey.
It's an idiom, not scientific fact. The point is you know my intent and viewpoint. Besides, I didn't even complete the expression, it's not even a valid comparison.
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@blakeyrat said in Big list of software that cannot handle spaces or accents in paths:
Did you stop to think of that?
No, that's dangerous.
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@gąska said in Big list of software that cannot handle spaces or accents in paths:
@blakeyrat said in Big list of software that cannot handle spaces or accents in paths:
You know it might just be possible that BOTH Linux AND Windows suck?
OMG IT'S HAPPENING! BLAKEY CRITICIZING 2000 MICROSOFT!
Why is this unusual to you?
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@boomzilla said in Big list of software that cannot handle spaces or accents in paths:
File names seem pretty user friendly ways to deal with files.
Names are, paths aren't.
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@boomzilla said in Big list of software that cannot handle spaces or accents in paths:
This sounds dystopian.
It's how PowerShell works now, and PowerShell's pretty good.
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@gąska said in Big list of software that cannot handle spaces or accents in paths:
OMG IT'S HAPPENING! BLAKEY CRITICIZING 2000 MICROSOFT!
I don't know what he "2000" refers to, but I criticize Microsoft all the time.
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@blakeyrat said in Big list of software that cannot handle spaces or accents in paths:
@boomzilla said in Big list of software that cannot handle spaces or accents in paths:
File names seem pretty user friendly ways to deal with files.
Names are, paths aren't.
Possibly. But I suspect they're at least in "Worst things except for everything else," territory.
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@boomzilla said in Big list of software that cannot handle spaces or accents in paths:
Possibly. But I suspect they're at least in "Worst things except for everything else," territory.
I think they're in the "not nearly enough research has been put into how people locate items in a GUI, and the research that was done originally is now shunned and ignored" territory.
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@blakeyrat said in Big list of software that cannot handle spaces or accents in paths:
@boomzilla said in Big list of software that cannot handle spaces or accents in paths:
Possibly. But I suspect they're at least in "Worst things except for everything else," territory.
I think they're in the "not nearly enough research has been put into how people locate items in a GUI, and the research that was done originally is now shunned and ignored" territory.
I think I would be a bad example test candidate, since I'm already well indoctrinated in how to organize and use my files, and would likely just skew the results back toward "the current way works just fine" territory.
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@blakeyrat said in Big list of software that cannot handle spaces or accents in paths:
@boomzilla said in Big list of software that cannot handle spaces or accents in paths:
Possibly. But I suspect they're at least in "Worst things except for everything else," territory.
I think they're in the "not nearly enough research has been put into how people locate items in a GUI, and the research that was done originally is now shunned and ignored" territory.
I'd be interested to hear about other ways to do it.
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@boomzilla said in Big list of software that cannot handle spaces or accents in paths:
I'd be interested to hear about other ways to do it.
Apple's forgotten spatial organization method worked very well for me for many decades. Modern software doesn't make much use of spatial memory, which is tragic.
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@blakeyrat said in Big list of software that cannot handle spaces or accents in paths:
@gąska said in Big list of software that cannot handle spaces or accents in paths:
OMG IT'S HAPPENING! BLAKEY CRITICIZING 2000 MICROSOFT!
I don't know what he "2000" refers to
It refers to your frequent rants about how MS isn't what it used to be since it went ohpen sauce.
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@blakeyrat said in Big list of software that cannot handle spaces or accents in paths:
@boomzilla said in Big list of software that cannot handle spaces or accents in paths:
I'd be interested to hear about other ways to do it.
Apple's forgotten spatial organization method worked very well for me for many decades. Modern software doesn't make much use of spatial memory, which is tragic.
What does that mean? I assume it means more than using the Finder or Open dialogs for everything.
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@mikehurley said in Big list of software that cannot handle spaces or accents in paths:
What does that mean?
It means the entire OS was designed around the use of the user's spatial memory. Or, phrase differently, stuff stayed where you fucking put it. Icons stayed where you put them. Folders opened into windows in the same size and location of where they were last opened. Application windows opened in the same position they were last seen in. Etc. Shit didn't shift and move around all the fucking time.
If you made a window wide and skinny so you could use the icons as a psuedo toolbar while another application is open in the foreground, both the window and the application window would open in that exact position every time. It was 100% reliable.
And Macintosh de-emphasized open dialogs in favor of drag&drop starting about OS 7-ish.
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@blakeyrat said in Big list of software that cannot handle spaces or accents in paths:
@boomzilla said in Big list of software that cannot handle spaces or accents in paths:
I'd be interested to hear about other ways to do it.
Apple's forgotten spatial organization method worked very well for me for many decades. Modern software doesn't make much use of spatial memory, which is tragic.
That seems like a presentation issue concern, not a file system concern though. Which, fine, I remember you saying how much you liked this before, but I don't see how that applies to the file system, which is what we're talking about.
The classic Mac OS Finder uses a spatial metaphor quite different to the more browser-like approach of the modern macOS Finder.[4] In the classic Finder, opening a new folder opens the location in a new window: finder windows are 'locked' so that they would only ever display the contents of one folder.
It was just a way of presenting you with a particular folder and remembering where you moved them around in the individual windows (I guess?). So it wasn't a replacement at all for paths.
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@tsaukpaetra said in Big list of software that cannot handle spaces or accents in paths:
@gąska said in Big list of software that cannot handle spaces or accents in paths:
@tsaukpaetra said in Big list of software that cannot handle spaces or accents in paths:
@gąska said in Big list of software that cannot handle spaces or accents in paths:
@tsaukpaetra if I asked nicely, would you have told me what APIs one can use on Windows to get CWD as handle rather than path?
Yes. I would have likely failed in the exact requirement as specified, since said APIs do use string paths to obtain it first
So, no.
Correct. However, I would accept my thoughts and recognizance are faulty much more readily than "you are required to answer is!"
Note that I never said you HAVE to answer that. I just said I can do zero research and ignore everything you say until you show you're not talking out of your ass. Burden of proof only applies if you want to prove something. "Citation needed" isn't an order; it's an expression of disbelief. A shorter form of "I'll believe it when I see it."
but flies (even retarded ones like myself) are far more attracted to honey.
It's an idiom, not scientific fact. The point is you know my intent and viewpoint.
I thought so too, until you pulled this stupid stunt with meaning "I think" literally. Then you rambled on about citations for basic facts. I honestly have no idea what was your goal there, other than pissing me off. It definitely didn't look like you've had any intention of having serious tech discussion about capabilities of Windows.
BTW - I chose Sydney for a reason.
Besides, I didn't even complete the expression, it's not even a valid comparison.
Ironically, it has been very relevant to our discussion. You said I'd get better response if I were more polite, and then admitted that no, the responses indeed wouldn't be any better.
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@boomzilla Oh you're talking about like database file systems? Yah I don't know jack about those.
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@blakeyrat said in Big list of software that cannot handle spaces or accents in paths:
@boomzilla Oh you're talking about like database file systems? Yah I don't know jack about those.
I don't know much about those either. If they don't use paths then I guess they'd be an alternative to using paths.
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@blakeyrat said in Big list of software that cannot handle spaces or accents in paths:
@mikehurley said in Big list of software that cannot handle spaces or accents in paths:
What does that mean?
It means the entire OS was designed around the use of the user's spatial memory. Or, phrase differently, stuff stayed where you fucking put it. Icons stayed where you put them. Folders opened into windows in the same size and location of where they were last opened. Application windows opened in the same position they were last seen in. Etc. Shit didn't shift and move around all the fucking time.
If you made a window wide and skinny so you could use the icons as a psuedo toolbar while another application is open in the foreground, both the window and the application window would open in that exact position every time. It was 100% reliable.
You've just described Windows. Except for this 100% - it's more like 90%, I'd say.
But that aside. There's one problem I have with such behavior. My muscle and spatial memory is more or less absolute - I don't look for a window, I just expect to find it in the same place, always, regardless of what I've done before in current session. File manager must open near (but a bit away from) top left corner and be half the screen size in both directions. Web browser has to be fullscreen all the time and all pages must have 100% zoom. Recent programs in Start menu must always be in the same order. Desktop icons must always be sorted alphabetically. Word has to show only one page at the time that takes about 50% of screen's real estate. Every time I change any of this - usually accidentally, but sometimes I need to do something for 5 minutes - it takes me forever to readjust because I can never match old settings perfectly, and there's no Ctrl+Z for window move. My ideal operating system would remember NOTHING AT ALL. Everything would always start the same.
I don't know how many users are like you vs. how many are like me, but I wish UI designers thought about my kind more often.
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@gąska said in Big list of software that cannot handle spaces or accents in paths:
You've just described Windows.
Haha no.
@gąska said in Big list of software that cannot handle spaces or accents in paths:
Except for this 100% - it's more like 90%, I'd say.
Maybe 20%. Maybe.
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@blakeyrat said in Big list of software that cannot handle spaces or accents in paths:
@mikehurley said in Big list of software that cannot handle spaces or accents in paths:
What does that mean?
It means the entire OS was designed around the use of the user's spatial memory. Or, phrase differently, stuff stayed where you fucking put it. Icons stayed where you put them. Folders opened into windows in the same size and location of where they were last opened. Application windows opened in the same position they were last seen in. Etc. Shit didn't shift and move around all the fucking time.
If you made a window wide and skinny so you could use the icons as a psuedo toolbar while another application is open in the foreground, both the window and the application window would open in that exact position every time. It was 100% reliable.
And Macintosh de-emphasized open dialogs in favor of drag&drop starting about OS 7-ish.
I'd probably hate if it remembered all that state. Usually if I tweaked the size it was a one time thing in Windows. The next time I browse that directory I want the "normal" window size. Not my super maximized or otherwise customized window I last used.
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@blakeyrat said in Big list of software that cannot handle spaces or accents in paths:
@gąska said in Big list of software that cannot handle spaces or accents in paths:
You've just described Windows.
Haha no.
@gąska said in Big list of software that cannot handle spaces or accents in paths:
Except for this 100% - it's more like 90%, I'd say.
Maybe 20%. Maybe.
Sounds like the perceived accuracy depends on whether you want the feature or not.
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@gąska said in Big list of software that cannot handle spaces or accents in paths:
@boomzilla the interactive shell is the only program dealing with paths - everything else uses IDs.
ls
spits out IDs.grep
accepts IDs.I don't want to read IDs in
ls
though.Pipes transfer over IDs.
That doesn't make sense, pipes are a transport mechanism.
You don't have to worry about quoting and escaping arguments in nested scripts because they're always atomic IDs.
How do things like
for f in *.txt *.log; do ...
work? Scripts will have to deal with file names again, anyway. Otherwise I can't write the kind of scripts I write.