Microsoft Adds Proper Support for Line Breaks in Notepad
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@magus said in Microsoft Adds Proper Support for Line Breaks in Notepad:
@mott555 Sure, that does make sense, but it seems like something the source control system should handle for you.
FunAnnoying fact: Source control clients are not even available for some of the operating systems we have to support in our industry.
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@blakeyrat said in Microsoft Adds Proper Support for Line Breaks in Notepad:
Notepad's been deprecated for literally decades.
[citation needed]
For literally decades, Notepad has been the out-of-the-box default in Windows for opening .txt files. That doesn't sound deprecated to me.
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@topspin said in Microsoft Adds Proper Support for Line Breaks in Notepad:
Which is a straw-man because even if every program writes Windows line-endings on Windows you still need to open files created by non-Windows programs.
I think when these decisions were made the assumption is that nobody would want to open plain text files with zero formatting capabilities in a few years. I mean, who would have anticipated that the Linux dumbshits would have taken over IT and completely frozen all progress at 1986?
I certainly didn't call it; if I had I'd have gone into selling fertilizer or something.
@weng said in Microsoft Adds Proper Support for Line Breaks in Notepad:
Wordpad is fucking horrible for plain text
Why do you want plain text? It's fucking 2018.
@magus said in Microsoft Adds Proper Support for Line Breaks in Notepad:
Sure, if they are always in the habit of sending Windows machines files with the wrong line endings. Which is stupid.
The funny thing (to me) is that Git gets like... 99,999 things wrong. It does it wrong, has a wrong UX, etc. But one thing it actually gets right is that you can tell it to adapt text file line endings to the OS they're being placed on. How the fuck did the team that got so many thousands of things wrong get that one thing right?
@magus said in Microsoft Adds Proper Support for Line Breaks in Notepad:
The devs of git refuse to admit that any line endings but Unix exist, and use them even on Windows machines.
No; Git has a setting you can set on Windows machines so it'll correct the line endings on checkout. Somehow.
What line endings Git stores in its own database is implementation-detail, it doesn't fucking matter.
@boomzilla said in Microsoft Adds Proper Support for Line Breaks in Notepad:
Use case: user wants a file with \n line endings.
Line-endings are an implementation-detail. No user ever wants a specific line ending.
@magus said in Microsoft Adds Proper Support for Line Breaks in Notepad:
Where exactly does git give you that kind of choice?
Sigh.
You make it hard for me to agree with you. Stop using Git as an example; Git is like the only open source program that gets this right.
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@blakeyrat said in Microsoft Adds Proper Support for Line Breaks in Notepad:
Why do you want plain text? It's fucking 2018.
KISS principle. If you don't need anything more--and there are plenty of instances where this is the case, especially in our profession--then trying to do something more complicated is actively harmful.
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@masonwheeler said in Microsoft Adds Proper Support for Line Breaks in Notepad:
KISS principle. If you don't need anything more--and there are plenty of instances where this is the case, especially in our profession--then trying to do something more complicated is actively harmful.
Plus if you saw (gasp!) italicized text, then you couldn't pretend it's fucking 1986.
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@blakeyrat Yeah let me just open this .txt file with OneNote...
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@blakeyrat said in Microsoft Adds Proper Support for Line Breaks in Notepad:
@boomzilla said in Microsoft Adds Proper Support for Line Breaks in Notepad:
Use case: user wants a file with \n line endings.
Line-endings are an implementation-detail. No user ever wants a specific line ending.
I DIDN'T ASK YOU FOR AN IGNORANT AND WRONG OPINION
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@weng said in Microsoft Adds Proper Support for Line Breaks in Notepad:
Wordpad is fucking horrible for plain text
Why do you want plain text? It's fucking 2018.
My configuration files tend to prefer plain text. Regardless of whether I want plain text or not, I kinda can't compromise with those nitpicky files.
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@the_quiet_one said in Microsoft Adds Proper Support for Line Breaks in Notepad:
My configuration files tend to prefer plain text.
Why not use XML or JSON files?
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@magus said in Microsoft Adds Proper Support for Line Breaks in Notepad:
They always store data that way, and force systems that want other line endings to convert every time they pull files out or put them back in.
By "systems" you mean "Windows", right? Because I know of no other platform that uses
\r\n
as a default line ending other than Windows?Now, I won't say they should change that. I may think they should, but fuck it, it can stay. The point is that I don't know any other OS whose default text editor can't handle this case, be it a GUI or a CLI editor. They all Just Work and can both read and write in both modes. Hell, fucking WordPad does that. But it's not the default on Windows.
Maybe, just maybe, Notepad being the only editor that fails in this task was a bit of a problem?
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@onyx said in Microsoft Adds Proper Support for Line Breaks in Notepad:
Maybe, just maybe, Notepad being the only editor that fails in this task was a bit of a problem?
I have yet to say that notepad shouldn't be able to view files with other systems' line endings.
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@magus said in Microsoft Adds Proper Support for Line Breaks in Notepad:
What is the use case for creating files with unix line endings on windows?
Maybe when the file you’re opening has those endings, it could be a good idea to preserve them for fear of causing possibly unwanted side effects?
In any case supporting all common line endings transparently is the best solution for users. If I open a text file made on Windows in TextEdit on my Mac, I see a file with line endings where they’re supposed to be, and no ugly squares or anything at the ends of those same lines to represent the
CR
s that Unix text files don’t use to delineate lines. If I then change it and save it, it will preserve thoseCR+LF
line endings just fine, except any line endings I’ve added will beLF
.I don’t see why Windows programs would be better off not doing it exactly the same way, because for the average user, what matters is where the line endings are, not whether they’re
CR+LF
,LF
,CR
,LF+CR
,NL
,FILE_NOT_FOUND
, or whatever.
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@onyx said in Microsoft Adds Proper Support for Line Breaks in Notepad:
By "systems" you mean "Windows", right? Because I know of no other platform that uses
\r\n
as a default line ending other than Windows?MS-DOS, and CP/M before it. Also OS/2, Atari TOS, PalmOS, and assorted others (I admit I had to look up all those except the first three, though).
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@blakeyrat said in Microsoft Adds Proper Support for Line Breaks in Notepad:
@weng said in Microsoft Adds Proper Support for Line Breaks in Notepad:
Wordpad is fucking horrible for plain text
Why do you want plain text? It's fucking 2018.
@blakeyrat compiles and parses configuration in
.png.docx.
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@topspin said in Microsoft Adds Proper Support for Line Breaks in Notepad:
@blakeyrat said in Microsoft Adds Proper Support for Line Breaks in Notepad:
@weng said in Microsoft Adds Proper Support for Line Breaks in Notepad:
Wordpad is fucking horrible for plain text
Why do you want plain text? It's fucking 2018.
@blakeyrat compiles and parses configuration in
.png.docx.
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@mott555 How is it possible that SO question wasn't mega-deleted?
Oh, 2012. Back when at least one person there had a sense of humor.
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This post is deleted!
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locked by Will Jul 2 '13 at 18:08
This question exists because it has historical significance, but it is not considered a good, on-topic question for this site, so please do not use it as evidence that you can ask similar questions here. This question and its answers are frozen and cannot be changed. More info: help center."This question sucks, please kindly fuck off."
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@topspin said in Microsoft Adds Proper Support for Line Breaks in Notepad:
This question exists because it has historical significance,
Oh yah, historians will be writing books about this question for centuries to come.
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@blakeyrat said in Microsoft Adds Proper Support for Line Breaks in Notepad:
That's what everybody at Microsoft has wanted you to do for like 20 years.
If they didn't want you using it, they would have deleted the 246kb file from the system, natch.
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@topspin said in Microsoft Adds Proper Support for Line Breaks in Notepad:
@blakeyrat said in Microsoft Adds Proper Support for Line Breaks in Notepad:
@akko Notepad's been deprecated for literally decades.
What other text editor ships with Windows? AFAIK notepad is still the default program to open text files.
C:\Windows\System32> copy con myfile.txt This is my text file. ^Z 1 file(s) copied.
And to view it:
C:\Windows\System32> type myfile.txt This is my text file.
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@topspin said in Microsoft Adds Proper Support for Line Breaks in Notepad:
@magus Are you saying either of:
- All OSes should use \r\n file endings like Windows does, because that's the only correct one
- Other OSes can use whatever they like, but there never is no need to ever open a file on a Windows machine that's been created on a non-Windows machine, or vice-versa
Because both of that is bullshit.
I think he was saying that if some app can't open text files that were created on Microsoft's OS, that's not Microsoft's fault.
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@weng said in Microsoft Adds Proper Support for Line Breaks in Notepad:
@blakeyrat Wordpad is fucking horrible for plain text
It's better than Notepad!
Proof of concept: Compare what happens when you load a 10Mb log file in WordPad vs Notepad.
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@blakeyrat said in Microsoft Adds Proper Support for Line Breaks in Notepad:
@weng said in Microsoft Adds Proper Support for Line Breaks in Notepad:
Wordpad is fucking horrible for plain text
Why do you want plain text? It's fucking 2018.
Maybe if Adobe and Microsoft weren't total assholes about protecting their formats from working in other people's applications, we'd have another file format that reliably shows the same text with the same formatting across different computers.
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@dcon said in Microsoft Adds Proper Support for Line Breaks in Notepad:
@blakeyrat said in Microsoft Adds Proper Support for Line Breaks in Notepad:
The fact that they touched it at all means
Probably means it was a summer intern's project?
This was my guess. Some intern was bored.
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@topspin said in Microsoft Adds Proper Support for Line Breaks in Notepad:
@blakeyrat compiles and parses configuration in .png.docx.
Have you met him? He'll just complain that there should be a GUI.
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@gąska said in Microsoft Adds Proper Support for Line Breaks in Notepad:
@blakeyrat said in Microsoft Adds Proper Support for Line Breaks in Notepad:
@weng said in Microsoft Adds Proper Support for Line Breaks in Notepad:
Wordpad is fucking horrible for plain text
Why do you want plain text? It's fucking 2018.
Maybe if Adobe and Microsoft weren't total assholes about protecting their formats from working in other people's applications, we'd have another file format that reliably shows the same text with the same formatting across different computers.
ODT, PS, HTML, latex (ick), Markdown (ick), probably others. Oh, TXT. :P
The formats exist. It's mainly inertia and silos that prevent homogenizing this kind of stuff.
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@boomzilla said in Microsoft Adds Proper Support for Line Breaks in Notepad:
@magus said in Microsoft Adds Proper Support for Line Breaks in Notepad:
What is the use case for creating files with unix line endings on windows?
Use case: user wants a file with
\n
line endings.Why does user care? Line endings are easy. User shouldn't care which kind his file has. User is broken.
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@mikehurley said in Microsoft Adds Proper Support for Line Breaks in Notepad:
@gąska said in Microsoft Adds Proper Support for Line Breaks in Notepad:
@blakeyrat said in Microsoft Adds Proper Support for Line Breaks in Notepad:
@weng said in Microsoft Adds Proper Support for Line Breaks in Notepad:
Wordpad is fucking horrible for plain text
Why do you want plain text? It's fucking 2018.
Maybe if Adobe and Microsoft weren't total assholes about protecting their formats from working in other people's applications, we'd have another file format that reliably shows the same text with the same formatting across different computers.
ODT
Had to deal with it for a while in school. There always were problems with it, either at my or teacher's computer.
PS
Photoshop projects?
HTML
...yeah, I guess it works.
latex (ick), Markdown (ick)
Exactly.
Oh, TXT. :p
That's plaintext.
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@anotherusername said in Microsoft Adds Proper Support for Line Breaks in Notepad:
@boomzilla said in Microsoft Adds Proper Support for Line Breaks in Notepad:
@magus said in Microsoft Adds Proper Support for Line Breaks in Notepad:
What is the use case for creating files with unix line endings on windows?
Use case: user wants a file with
\n
line endings.Why does user care? Line endings are easy. User shouldn't care which kind his file has. User is broken.
Why do you care if user cares? You are broken.
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@gurth said in Microsoft Adds Proper Support for Line Breaks in Notepad:
Maybe when the file you’re opening has those endings, it could be a good idea to preserve them for fear of causing possibly unwanted side effects?
Maybe you should pay attention to the context here. Because that is literally the case now, and no one has a problem with it.
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@gąska said in Microsoft Adds Proper Support for Line Breaks in Notepad:
ODT
Had to deal with it for a while in school. There always were problems with it, either at my or teacher's computer.I've found it depends on what's in the document.
Recently I've been sharing XLSX or DOCX made from source ODS/ODT and they've all converted and opened with Office just fine. I guess I haven't shared the ODS/ODT directly.PS
Photoshop projects?
PostScript
Oh, TXT. :p
That's plaintext.
Yes. Lame attempt at snark.
One more: RTF
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@dcon said in Microsoft Adds Proper Support for Line Breaks in Notepad:
@blakeyrat said in Microsoft Adds Proper Support for Line Breaks in Notepad:
The fact that they touched it at all means
Probably means it was a summer intern's project?
They should sack the intern if it took him more than a couple afternoons.
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@boomzilla said in Microsoft Adds Proper Support for Line Breaks in Notepad:
@anotherusername said in Microsoft Adds Proper Support for Line Breaks in Notepad:
@boomzilla said in Microsoft Adds Proper Support for Line Breaks in Notepad:
@magus said in Microsoft Adds Proper Support for Line Breaks in Notepad:
What is the use case for creating files with unix line endings on windows?
Use case: user wants a file with
\n
line endings.Why does user care? Line endings are easy. User shouldn't care which kind his file has. User is broken.
Why do you care if user cares? You are broken.
Why does Unix care if Notepad cares? Unix is broken.
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@anotherusername said in Microsoft Adds Proper Support for Line Breaks in Notepad:
@boomzilla said in Microsoft Adds Proper Support for Line Breaks in Notepad:
@anotherusername said in Microsoft Adds Proper Support for Line Breaks in Notepad:
@boomzilla said in Microsoft Adds Proper Support for Line Breaks in Notepad:
@magus said in Microsoft Adds Proper Support for Line Breaks in Notepad:
What is the use case for creating files with unix line endings on windows?
Use case: user wants a file with
\n
line endings.Why does user care? Line endings are easy. User shouldn't care which kind his file has. User is broken.
Why do you care if user cares? You are broken.
Why does Unix care if Notepad cares? Unix is broken.
I think your example is broken. You might want to have someone look at it.
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@boomzilla said in Microsoft Adds Proper Support for Line Breaks in Notepad:
@anotherusername said in Microsoft Adds Proper Support for Line Breaks in Notepad:
@boomzilla said in Microsoft Adds Proper Support for Line Breaks in Notepad:
@anotherusername said in Microsoft Adds Proper Support for Line Breaks in Notepad:
@boomzilla said in Microsoft Adds Proper Support for Line Breaks in Notepad:
@magus said in Microsoft Adds Proper Support for Line Breaks in Notepad:
What is the use case for creating files with unix line endings on windows?
Use case: user wants a file with
\n
line endings.Why does user care? Line endings are easy. User shouldn't care which kind his file has. User is broken.
Why do you care if user cares? You are broken.
Why does Unix care if Notepad cares? Unix is broken.
I think your example is broken. You might want to have someone look at it.
Why? It's your example.
Use case: Notepad wants a file with
\r\n
line endings.It's stupid to blame an app for not supporting saving in all the snowflake formats, just because some snowflake can't open the format that it does save in. I never blamed Unix for saving files that Notepad couldn't open; I blamed Notepad.
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@anotherusername said in Microsoft Adds Proper Support for Line Breaks in Notepad:
Notepad wants a file with
\r\nChr(13) Chr(10) line endings.FTFY
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@anotherusername said in Microsoft Adds Proper Support for Line Breaks in Notepad:
@boomzilla said in Microsoft Adds Proper Support for Line Breaks in Notepad:
@anotherusername said in Microsoft Adds Proper Support for Line Breaks in Notepad:
@boomzilla said in Microsoft Adds Proper Support for Line Breaks in Notepad:
@anotherusername said in Microsoft Adds Proper Support for Line Breaks in Notepad:
@boomzilla said in Microsoft Adds Proper Support for Line Breaks in Notepad:
@magus said in Microsoft Adds Proper Support for Line Breaks in Notepad:
What is the use case for creating files with unix line endings on windows?
Use case: user wants a file with
\n
line endings.Why does user care? Line endings are easy. User shouldn't care which kind his file has. User is broken.
Why do you care if user cares? You are broken.
Why does Unix care if Notepad cares? Unix is broken.
I think your example is broken. You might want to have someone look at it.
Why? It's your example.
No, it isn't.
Use case: Notepad wants a file with
\r\n
line endings.Yes.
It's stupid to blame an app for not supporting saving in all the snowflake formats, just because some snowflake can't open the format that it does save in. I never blamed Unix for saving files that Notepad couldn't open; I blamed Notepad.
You've stopped making any sense here. Sorry. If you figure out what you're trying to say get back to us.
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@boomzilla You said user wants a file with
\n
line endings and implied that if Windows doesn't support saving files with\n
line endings, Windows is broken. By that logic, if Unix doesn't support saving files with\r\n
line endings so that Notepad can open them, then it means Unix is broken.I say it's the user's fault for being picky about what line ending their file has. Notepad should be able to open all of them. If it can't, that's Notepad's fault, not Unix's.
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@anotherusername said in Microsoft Adds Proper Support for Line Breaks in Notepad:
Windows is broken
...
Unix is broken
Everything is brokenFTFY.
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@anotherusername said in Microsoft Adds Proper Support for Line Breaks in Notepad:
@boomzilla You said user wants a file with
\n
line endings and implied that if Windows doesn't support saving files with\n
line endings, Windows is broken. By that logic, if Unix doesn't support saving files with\r\n
line endings so that Notepad can open them, then it means Unix is broken.False. I said that if Windows prevents users from creating
\n
EOLs when they want to then Windows is user hostile.Also I don't think you know what Unix is, based on these posts.
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@anotherusername said in Microsoft Adds Proper Support for Line Breaks in Notepad:
if Unix doesn't support saving files with \r\n line endings so that Notepad can open them, then it means Unix is broken.
It's not the OS, it's the text editor.
Ex.: SciTE (available for Windows & Linux)
Kate
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@boomzilla said in Microsoft Adds Proper Support for Line Breaks in Notepad:
False. I said that if Windows prevents users from creating
\n
EOLs when they want to then Windows is user hostile.Also I don't think you know what Unix is, based on these posts.
If Unix prevents users from creating
\r\n
EOLs when they want to then Unix is user hostile.But everyone already knew that Unix is user hostile...
Users only care what line ending their text files have when users have to work with broken apps that care what line ending their text files have.
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@anotherusername said in Microsoft Adds Proper Support for Line Breaks in Notepad:
when users have to work with broken apps that care what line ending their text files have.
Like Notepad (until now)
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@timebandit said in Microsoft Adds Proper Support for Line Breaks in Notepad:
It's not the OS, it's the text editor.
I know this, obviously. Notepad++ doesn't have any issues with line endings. No app should; Notepad is one of the only apps that I know of that did, along with gcc apparently.
@timebandit said in Microsoft Adds Proper Support for Line Breaks in Notepad:
Like Notepad (until now)
Yes... and all this time, I've blamed Notepad, when apparently I should've been blaming those Unix cunts for being user hostile and not giving me files that Notepad could open.
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@anotherusername said in Microsoft Adds Proper Support for Line Breaks in Notepad:
@boomzilla said in Microsoft Adds Proper Support for Line Breaks in Notepad:
False. I said that if Windows prevents users from creating
\n
EOLs when they want to then Windows is user hostile.Also I don't think you know what Unix is, based on these posts.
If Unix prevents users from creating
\r\n
EOLs when they want to then Unix is user hostile.Yes. I've never heard of this happening or of anyone even proposing it.
But everyone already knew that Unix is user hostile...
Ronald Reagan: The trouble with our Liberal friends – 00:07
— Hired MindUsers only care what line ending their text files have when users have to work with broken apps that care what line ending their text files have.
Possibly, and even if so, it doesn't excuse other systems from being hostile to those users.
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@anotherusername said in Microsoft Adds Proper Support for Line Breaks in Notepad:
apparently I should've been blaming those Unix cunts for being user hostile and not giving me files that Notepad could open
Stop reading blakeyrants
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@anotherusername said in Microsoft Adds Proper Support for Line Breaks in Notepad:
If Unix prevents users from creating
\r\n
EOLs when they want to then Unix is user hostile.It doesn't. There's even special conversion tools.
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@pleegwat said in Microsoft Adds Proper Support for Line Breaks in Notepad:
There's even special conversion tools.
Yes, command line tools.
Proof that Unix IS user hostile
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@timebandit said in Microsoft Adds Proper Support for Line Breaks in Notepad:
@pleegwat said in Microsoft Adds Proper Support for Line Breaks in Notepad:
There's even special conversion tools.
Yes, command line tools.
Proof that Unix IS user hostile
I know
vim
autodetects and preserves line endings. I strongly suspect simple GUI editors likegedit
do as well, but I don't have a linux box running right now.