We don't understand TFS and we don't want to.
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@blakeyrat said in We don't understand TFS and we don't want to.:
Been done in this thread by multiple people, you so far haven't indicated even slightly that you understand their arguments.
I understood the arguments, I just didn't think it was a massive problem as much as it was hyped up to be.
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@lucas1 said in We don't understand TFS and we don't want to.:
@thecpuwizard I don't care for the most part. I rather my source control problems don't get in some zombie state. Git cannot get into that situation as of its nature.
You've never ended up in a detached head state?
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@blakeyrat said in We don't understand TFS and we don't want to.:
The designers of gas nozzles (gas nozzles!!!) are doing a better job of accident-proofing their product than the developers of Git. And they have to change 5,000,000 pumps, not just one codebase.
Sooner or later, everybody's going to make a mistake. The point is the tools you use need to acknowledge that, and include features that make mistakes both less common and less harmful when they occur. Git doesn't. Because it's shitty.If it costs £5,000,000 to implement and it only affects a small minority of people. It really isn't worth doing. Sometimes because we don't live in a perfect world, it is better sometimes to accept there are going to be fuckups and just deal with it at the time, rather than try to design the whole world around a rare incident.
I noticed that you don't really understand there are trade-offs regarding almost every technical decision that is made. You have to accept sometimes that you don't live in a perfect world.
(Aside: Also the garages don't fucking care about the cost because the still get paid for the fuel and the customer has to pay for someone to pump the tank. It isn't going to change because there is simply no incentive from anyone to actually give enough of a shit to actually want to change it).
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@lucas1 said in We don't understand TFS and we don't want to.:
I noticed that you don't really understand there are trade-offs regarding almost every technical decision that is made.
Yeah I'm sure there's good reasons that Git was made really shitty back in 2008 or whatever.
But now we're here a decade+ later, and it's still really shitty.
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@blakeyrat Except it isn't. It works just fine for me and 1000s of others. Numbers don't lie.
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@carrievs But I actually think he's right here: I'd rather my software not use idioms. TFS doesn't even make huge use of metaphorical naming: Branch is about it. When you open your repository, you just say 'get latest' on the code you want. You're asked where you want to map it, and then it does it. But you don't see the word 'repository', and typically you only see the word 'map' when you want to change the mapping.
Basically, they mostly keep the jargon out of your way. It's one of many things a piece of software can do to improve usability. Many devs try to get cute or terse with their naming, but in neither case does that help anyone, even if you can figure it out.
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@lucas1 said in We don't understand TFS and we don't want to.:
@blakeyrat Except it isn't. It works just fine for me and 1000s of others. Numbers don't lie.
McDonalds. Checkmate, Athiests!
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@magus said in We don't understand TFS and we don't want to.:
Basically, they mostly keep the jargon out of your way. It's one of many things a piece of software can do to improve usability. Many devs try to get cute or terse with their naming, but in neither case does that help anyone, even if you can figure it out.
I disagree, because the concept of a "Workspace" and a "Shelve" is implying that the developer knows what it is like working in a regular traditional workspace i.e. In an out-house, large heavy desk, tools on the wall and shelves above the work space.
It is the equivalent of the save icon being a floppy disk. It is a set of legacy terms that don't really make sense if you are entering development now because you have most likely never worked in a job that required a physical workbench.
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@lucas1 But not many, and any time they have them, they have a help thing telling what they do, with a video.
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@magus Google, Checkmate Magnus.
I am sure I could pull out of my arse something which is popular and shit. BTW McDonalds Breakfast on a Friday Morning is one of my favourite things. Pity their menu is shite.
Also while McDonalds isn't good food, you know exactly what you are getting pretty much anywhere in the world. McDonalds in Spain is exactly the same as it is in the UK.
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@lucas1 That isn't true either. They have regional menus.
You asked for a counterexample for popularity equalling quality. You got one. Thank you for playing.
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@blakeyrat said in We don't understand TFS and we don't want to.:
You can't rollback wasted labor. Unless you have a Tardis I guess.
Actually there are a lot of limits in that regard so that the Tardis does not cause causality problem. Thus, even if you do have a Tardis, you may not be able to rollback the wasted labor :)
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@magus I literally had to explain to another developer what Shelving meant with regards to TFS ... I literally used the words
"There is your workspace where you are making something on your desk, you get interrupted and you put your incomplete work on the shelf above".
The lights did click on. But unless you explain it, it just sounds like Jargon.
With regards to Source control in general ... the term branch itself is from these things that are brown with green things on the end. A Stash is somewhere, where you put things away to be hidden from other people.
Git isn't using strange language. The fact of the matter is that there is Jargon or as my old Software Architecture Lecturer said a "lexical namespace".
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@lucas1 Dude, git has insane amounts of jargon. Every command is some piece of specialized jargon. It's the worst thing about it!
Hold on while I push a pull request.
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@magus said in We don't understand TFS and we don't want to.:
You asked for a counterexample for popularity equalling quality. You got one. Thank you for playing.
Except I didn't. I said that numbers are a indicator of quality.
It goes to the old saying "You pick two out of the three, Quality, Speed, Price".
The regional menu at McDonalds does change but honestly I've been to the Golden arches now in 3 continents and it wasn't that different. I could still get a double bacon egg mcmuffin, with a hash brows and a coffee.
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@magus No you push your changes to the pull request. If you are going to complain at least get it right.
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@lucas1 said in We don't understand TFS and we don't want to.:
Except I didn't. I said that numbers are a indicator of quality.
Proven false. You lose. Goodbye.
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@magus Except you didn't prove me false. You just think you did.
Again everything is a tradeoff. Yes McDonalds isn't great food, but there are good things about it as I said. If you are in an unusual place you know what you are getting. That is something which btw is a good thing. Also Double Bacon and Egg McMuffins are nice, so I think they are quality.
I rather you just full out troll if you want to deliberately try to misunderstand. At least we could have some banter.
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@magus said in We don't understand TFS and we don't want to.:
@lucas1 Dude, git has insane amounts of jargon. Every command is some piece of specialized jargon. It's the worst thing about it!
Hold on while I push a pull request.
What is an example of non-jargon TFS? I've never used it so I have no idea, and am wondering what sorts of things you'd consider to be "non-jargon" anyways.
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@boomzilla Almost everything in Jargon. If you are a Window Cleaner and use the term locks, that means something very different than a lock in programming.
The English language is full of it.
This is a really dumb example, I may have mentioned it before on here. I visited my Dad quite a few years ago. The conversation when like this
Dad - Have you seen the new Windows?
Me - Yeah
Dad - What you think?
Me - It is a really good operating system ....
Dad - I mean on the front of the house.Windows 7 RC1 had just been released and I came in via the back gate so I didn't see the front of the house.
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@lucas1 said in We don't understand TFS and we don't want to.:
Almost everything in Jargon.
Yeah, and so many computer terms are metaphors or technical jargon. It's just...the nature of it. I'm really baffled by this line of discussion. I'm starting to think it's just Git Derangement Syndrome.
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@boomzilla I am not biting that easily my friend :-)
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@boomzilla Okay fair enough.
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@boomzilla said in We don't understand TFS and we don't want to.:
What is an example of non-jargon TFS? I've never used it so I have no idea, and am wondering what sorts of things you'd consider to be "non-jargon" anyways.
'Get Latest' instead of something like 'pull' is a very good example. And is the one I mentioned before. 'Check in' and 'check out' are not things someone is going to ask the meaning of, as opposed to 'commit' and '???'.
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@magus said in We don't understand TFS and we don't want to.:
@boomzilla said in We don't understand TFS and we don't want to.:
What is an example of non-jargon TFS? I've never used it so I have no idea, and am wondering what sorts of things you'd consider to be "non-jargon" anyways.
'Get Latest' instead of something like 'pull' is a very good example. And is the one I mentioned before. 'Check in' and 'check out' are not things someone is going to ask the meaning of, as opposed to 'commit' and '???'.
Possibly. Nevertheless, I fail to see how those are not jargon. I think we can all agree that git has made some terrible wording choices but I don't understand the complaint with "cherry pick" or commit or push.
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@magus Pull is a normal word to bring something to you i.e. Whatever that you are pulling, which in this case is latest code.
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- Get Latest ... News paper
- Get Latest ... Stock Updates
- Get Latest ... Jaguar X-E
- Get Latest ... Stock Price
etc. etc. etc.
It is all Jargon FFS and you still need to know how the source control system works to use it effectively.
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@lucas1 said in We don't understand TFS and we don't want to.:
I disagree, because the concept of a "Workspace" and a "Shelve" is implying that the developer knows what it is like working in a regular traditional workspace i.e. In an out-house, large heavy desk, tools on the wall and shelves above the work space.
People who work in an office all know what a workspace and shelf is.
They're a lot less likely to know what a cherry picker is.
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@boomzilla 'cherry pick' in TFS would be 'get specific', which is pretty nice. 'Commit' makes no sense. When does anyone use 'committing some work' unless they're using git?
@lucas1 said in We don't understand TFS and we don't want to.:
Pull is a normal word to bring something to you
Sure, but it's vague. 'Get latest' is way more specific. No one says they'll 'push' you a document in the mail, because 'push' is for physical things. The only reason anyone uses it in computer-related fields is because someone used it to describe how queues and stacks work.
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@blakeyrat LOL, I think the whole concept of cherry picking isn't anything to do with that mechanised contraption.
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@magus said in We don't understand TFS and we don't want to.:
'cherry pick' in TFS would be 'get specific', which is pretty nice. 'Commit' makes no sense. When does anyone use 'committing some work' unless they're using git?
I don't use git but I commit my work all the time. "Commit your words to paper," or the like is a common enough idiom. I weep for your vocabulary, blakey.
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@magus said in We don't understand TFS and we don't want to.:
. 'Get latest' is way more specific.
As I have previously demonstrated, only if you are talking in the right lexicon. Thus it is Jargon. That is the whole idea of namespaces in languages like Java and C#.
Part of any job is learning the business, which means learning the Jargon used within the company.
We had a old joke at my first job as a Developer, where if you were making a dubious claim you would suffix your sentence with "FACT", to let everyone know that you were just fucking around.
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@lucas1 said in We don't understand TFS and we don't want to.:
OL, I think the whole concept of cherry picking isn't anything to do with that mechanised contraption.
Then why would you use the name of that "mechanised contraption" to communicate it?
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You are picking the things you want from something to suit you, you aren't actually picking cherries you fucking moron.
EDIT: Clarity.
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@jaloopa said in We don't understand TFS and we don't want to.:
Clearly you have to use
git baffle -d -t --finagle-wranglersbut make sure you don't use-Dbecause that will change a random commit somewhere in the past to replace every.hfile with a lolcatI believe you're looking for this documentation.
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@lucas1 Also @blakeyrat Cherry Picking is also Jargon in terms of Logic / Logical Fallacies.
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@blakeyrat While I agree that cherry picking is the wrong terminology for this, your example is wrong.
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@lucas1 what do you think the definition of jargon is?
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Choosing to make selective choices among competing evidence, so as to emphasize those results that support a given position, while ignoring or dismissing any findings that do not support it, is a practice known as "cherry picking" and is a hallmark of poor science or pseudo-science
Emphasis is mine btw. Sorry dude, cherry picking describes exactly what you are doing.
Again ... different context, different lexicon.
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@lucas1 said in We don't understand TFS and we don't want to.:
double bacon egg mcmuffin
We don't have those. You could probably special order it, but it's not a standard item.
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@dcon I think it is like one piece of bacon extra over a regular bacon mcmuffin.
But you do have bacon mcmuffins?
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@lucas1 I don't care about how bold your text is. If I want specific things, I want to 'get specific' - sure, an idiom exists, but why use one when you don't have to? What advantage does it gain you? It's just another pathetic attempt to try to look cute.
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@lucas1 said in We don't understand TFS and we don't want to.:
@magus Pull is a normal word to bring something to you i.e. Whatever that you are pulling, which in this case is latest code.
"theirs" and "ours"
Git had to change the meaning and fuck us all up.
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@blakeyrat said in We don't understand TFS and we don't want to.:
@lucas1 said in We don't understand TFS and we don't want to.:
I disagree, because the concept of a "Workspace" and a "Shelve" is implying that the developer knows what it is like working in a regular traditional workspace i.e. In an out-house, large heavy desk, tools on the wall and shelves above the work space.
People who work in an office all know what a workspace and shelf is.
They're a lot less likely to know what a cherry picker is.
I always think of this instead
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@lucas1 said in We don't understand TFS and we don't want to.:
@dcon I think it is like one piece of bacon extra over a regular bacon mcmuffin.
But you do have bacon mcmuffins?
No. well, canadian bacon - that's a regular mcmuffin.
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@magus As I previously demonstrated. Almost everything is dependent in the context in which you are speaking and the lexicon.
I own two Amigas. They have an environment called "Work Bench". Work Bench and Work Space are pretty much the same thing in most people's minds.
So if I was talking about computers to an Amiga user and used the term Work Bench they mean the Amigas UI. If I talk to a .NET developer that uses TFS they will probably think he means "Workspace". If I am talking about my Amiga collection at work (there are a lot of super geeks at work), I specify by saying "Amiga Workbench".
In C# it would be this:
using WorkBench = Commodore.Amiga.WorkBench; using WorkSpace = Microsoft.TFS.WorkSpace;Everything is Jargon. That is fine. You still need to understand how source control works with both systems, regardless of the terminology. You seem to think that by calling it nice names it makes is easier to use suddenly.
Now you can make a valid argument about moving between the two and it the difference in Jargon making the transition more difficult if you are moving between worlds as it were.
I do this in my head and I actually done it on this thread at least once e.g.
- Stash ~ Shelveset
- Check in ~ Commit
I know they aren't 100% equivalent, but it is close enough.
PS: BTW the bolding is to draw your attention to the important part of the quote I wish you to notice. I am simply making it explicit.
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@lucas1 said in We don't understand TFS and we don't want to.:
Stash ~ Shelveset
Not the same thing.
@lucas1 said in We don't understand TFS and we don't want to.:
Check in ~ Commit
The former makes far more sense.
And in any case, why are you saying all of this? I will always side with whatever uses more boring, obvious terminology. Like the one before, which I notice you've suddenly gone quiet on.
It isn't just a matter of having a new dictionary of jargon. It's the quality of the words. Obvious is always better.
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@lucas1 said in We don't understand TFS and we don't want to.:
Again everything is a tradeoff. Yes McDonalds isn't great food, but there are good things about it as I said. If you are in an unusual place you know what you are getting.
Except when there was a fried egg in by Big Mac
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@magus said in We don't understand TFS and we don't want to.:
Not the same thing.
You didn't read what I said, I said I appreciate they are not 100% equivalent. They do similarish things. If you weren't trying to argue the toss about everything I said, you would be able to see that they are somewhat equivalent in some circumstances.
These key words being some, similar, not always etc etc. If you are working by yourself the only real difference is the Stash puts it away on your computer, whereas the shelve puts it up somewhere. It is still in a "safe place" away from the other work.
If you keep wanting to be a pedant about it, I will just continue just fucking with interpretations. I already shutup @blakeyrat because he was a moron ny thinking it was a fucking machinery reference. When I am sure he has used the term cherry picking on here loads of times to point out a logical fallacy.
The former makes far more sense.
In your mind, in mine they are equivalent, when we are talking about source control.
Check-in in terms of travel means something a lot different than Checking-in on my friend to make sure he is alright because he lives in a bus in the middle of no-where.
Committing means very different things between SQL SERVER, TFS and getting married.
Are you getting the point I am trying to hammer into you yet?
And in any case, why are you saying all of this? I will always side with whatever uses more boring, obvious terminology. Like the one before, which I notice you've suddenly gone quiet on.
I have no idea what you are on about.
It isn't just a matter of having a new dictionary of jargon. It's the quality of the words. Obvious is always better.
No not really, it is normally better that everyone uses the same Jargon than it being obvious. I work in a place that doesn't use Allman Bracing for c#, and instead uses KnR bracing.
Should I use the correct and more widely used form. No because the convention in the company is to use the other and that is what the other devs expect.
EDIT: I am making this EDIT bold, as you seem to have a problem with me trying to communicate more clearly with you.
Cherry picking - Wikipedia
