Apparently, JavaScript is easy to learn, and HTML is a programming language
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@arantor said in Apparently, JavaScript is easy to learn, and HTML is a programming language:
so a Word document is a program now?
Yeah, I suppose it would be, though I've never heard of anyone writing them by hand. I understand that most people use a generator for that. I suppose there's also a distinction of the binary vs textual nature (cue blakeygarbl). Does the new xml based format use all text markup? The binary version seems more like something that's already compiled or at least turned into something similar to bytecode.
@arantor said in Apparently, JavaScript is easy to learn, and HTML is a programming language:
It's not a programming language, clue is in the name. It is for providing semantic meaning to text, browsers are only one form of interpreter, there are others that interpret the semantic meaning differently, but it's still not a program.
You're letting yourself be fooled by semantics, I think, and ignoring the essence of a program being data that instructs the computer what to do. Stop fighting with an arbitrary categorization and just recognize that as programming goes, html is way on the simple and specialized end of things.
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@boomzilla it's encoded, in a not entirely textual format, but a language that cannot muster an if statement cannot be a program.
Oh, who am I kidding? Fuck this noise.
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@arantor said in Apparently, JavaScript is easy to learn, and HTML is a programming language:
It's encoded, in a not entirely textual format, but a language that cannot muster an if statement cannot be a program.
Ah, I see, now you're trying to get me to defend a blakeypoint!
This thing about an if statement just seems arbitrary to me. I would say that separates programming languages with differing amounts of power and uses, but doesn't separate programming from non programming.
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@boomzilla said in Apparently, JavaScript is easy to learn, and HTML is a programming language:
@pie_flavor said in Apparently, JavaScript is easy to learn, and HTML is a programming language:
@boomzilla said in Apparently, JavaScript is easy to learn, and HTML is a programming language:
@pie_flavor said in Apparently, JavaScript is easy to learn, and HTML is a programming language:
You claimed that it's a language if it instructs the computer to do something. In the case of HTML, it's simply a visual layout. The computer isn't being instructed to do anything, it's simply being passed data. HTML does not accept input, it does not have conditionals, it does not do anything except describe a layout. Actual programming functionality is provided by JavaScript, which is a programming language.
It's the difference between manipulating data and being the data.@raceprouk said in Apparently, JavaScript is easy to learn, and HTML is a programming language:
@pie_flavor I think a better way to describe it is that markup languages describe the result, and programming languages describe how to get there.
So a hello world program isn't a program? I still find this all quite arbitrary.
This is data:
<html><body>Hello World!</body></html>
This is still data:
<html><body><b><i>Hello World!</i></b></body></html>
This is an instruction to do something with data:
Console.WriteLine("Hello World!");
They both could be either. A web browser would take the first two examples and display them in a particular way. It was instructions that told the browser how to display stuff. There is literally no difference between your examples on that level.
If that's the case, then literally ANY data on a computer is a programming language. If I open Microsoft Word and type some text into it, by your definition, I have just created a computer program that displays the text I typed.
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@ben_lubar said in Apparently, JavaScript is easy to learn, and HTML is a programming language:
@boomzilla said in Apparently, JavaScript is easy to learn, and HTML is a programming language:
@pie_flavor said in Apparently, JavaScript is easy to learn, and HTML is a programming language:
@boomzilla said in Apparently, JavaScript is easy to learn, and HTML is a programming language:
@pie_flavor said in Apparently, JavaScript is easy to learn, and HTML is a programming language:
You claimed that it's a language if it instructs the computer to do something. In the case of HTML, it's simply a visual layout. The computer isn't being instructed to do anything, it's simply being passed data. HTML does not accept input, it does not have conditionals, it does not do anything except describe a layout. Actual programming functionality is provided by JavaScript, which is a programming language.
It's the difference between manipulating data and being the data.@raceprouk said in Apparently, JavaScript is easy to learn, and HTML is a programming language:
@pie_flavor I think a better way to describe it is that markup languages describe the result, and programming languages describe how to get there.
So a hello world program isn't a program? I still find this all quite arbitrary.
This is data:
<html><body>Hello World!</body></html>
This is still data:
<html><body><b><i>Hello World!</i></b></body></html>
This is an instruction to do something with data:
Console.WriteLine("Hello World!");
They both could be either. A web browser would take the first two examples and display them in a particular way. It was instructions that told the browser how to display stuff. There is literally no difference between your examples on that level.
If that's the case, then literally ANY data on a computer is a programming language. If I open Microsoft Word and type some text into it, by your definition, I have just created a computer program that displays the text I typed.
Crazy, huh?
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For the record, it is possible to make a turing machine in CSS, so CSS is a programming language.
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@antiquarian said in Apparently, JavaScript is easy to learn, and HTML is a programming language:
What's past insanity?
Discourse
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@pie_flavor said in Apparently, JavaScript is easy to learn, and HTML is a programming language:
This is an instruction to do something with data:
Console.WriteLine("Hello World!");That looks like data to me.
echo ' Console.WriteLine("Hello World!");';
There we go
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@boomzilla Write a Turing machine in pure HTML. If you can do that, I'll agree it's a programming language.
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@raceprouk said in Apparently, JavaScript is easy to learn, and HTML is a programming language:
@boomzilla Write a Turing machine in pure HTML. If you can do that, I'll agree it's a programming language.
Sorry, my mathematical brain does not share your arbitrary sense of superiority and I'm actually OK with you admitting to being wrong.
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@polygeekery said in Apparently, JavaScript is easy to learn, and HTML is a programming language:
@pie_flavor said in Apparently, JavaScript is easy to learn, and HTML is a programming language:
@boomzilla said in Apparently, JavaScript is easy to learn, and HTML is a programming language:
@pie_flavor said in Apparently, JavaScript is easy to learn, and HTML is a programming language:
You claimed that it's a language if it instructs the computer to do something. In the case of HTML, it's simply a visual layout. The computer isn't being instructed to do anything, it's simply being passed data. HTML does not accept input, it does not have conditionals, it does not do anything except describe a layout. Actual programming functionality is provided by JavaScript, which is a programming language.
It's the difference between manipulating data and being the data.@raceprouk said in Apparently, JavaScript is easy to learn, and HTML is a programming language:
@pie_flavor I think a better way to describe it is that markup languages describe the result, and programming languages describe how to get there.
So a hello world program isn't a program? I still find this all quite arbitrary.
This is data:
<html><body>Hello World!</body></html>
This is still data:
<html><body><b><i>Hello World!</i></b></body></html>
This is an instruction to do something with data:
Console.WriteLine("Hello World!");
There is fuck-all difference between the three besides where the data is output. At least do some string concatenation or something. Something FizzBuzzy? Something. Otherwise all three are just instructions to output static data.
No. The third is an instruction to output static data. The first two ARE static data. All HTML is static data.
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@pie_flavor said in Apparently, JavaScript is easy to learn, and HTML is a programming language:
@polygeekery said in Apparently, JavaScript is easy to learn, and HTML is a programming language:
@pie_flavor said in Apparently, JavaScript is easy to learn, and HTML is a programming language:
@boomzilla said in Apparently, JavaScript is easy to learn, and HTML is a programming language:
@pie_flavor said in Apparently, JavaScript is easy to learn, and HTML is a programming language:
You claimed that it's a language if it instructs the computer to do something. In the case of HTML, it's simply a visual layout. The computer isn't being instructed to do anything, it's simply being passed data. HTML does not accept input, it does not have conditionals, it does not do anything except describe a layout. Actual programming functionality is provided by JavaScript, which is a programming language.
It's the difference between manipulating data and being the data.@raceprouk said in Apparently, JavaScript is easy to learn, and HTML is a programming language:
@pie_flavor I think a better way to describe it is that markup languages describe the result, and programming languages describe how to get there.
So a hello world program isn't a program? I still find this all quite arbitrary.
This is data:
<html><body>Hello World!</body></html>
This is still data:
<html><body><b><i>Hello World!</i></b></body></html>
This is an instruction to do something with data:
Console.WriteLine("Hello World!");
There is fuck-all difference between the three besides where the data is output. At least do some string concatenation or something. Something FizzBuzzy? Something. Otherwise all three are just instructions to output static data.
No. The third is an instruction to output static data. The first two ARE static data. All HTML is static data.
No. They are exactly equal. The HTML you presented is also an instruction to output static data.
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@antiquarian said in Apparently, JavaScript is easy to learn, and HTML is a programming language:
What's past insanity?
EFL?
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@pie_flavor said in Apparently, JavaScript is easy to learn, and HTML is a programming language:
No. The third is an instruction to output static data. The first two ARE static data. All HTML is static data.
Most code is static data. Self modifying code is scary.
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@polygeekery said in Apparently, JavaScript is easy to learn, and HTML is a programming language:
@pie_flavor said in Apparently, JavaScript is easy to learn, and HTML is a programming language:
@polygeekery said in Apparently, JavaScript is easy to learn, and HTML is a programming language:
@pie_flavor said in Apparently, JavaScript is easy to learn, and HTML is a programming language:
@boomzilla said in Apparently, JavaScript is easy to learn, and HTML is a programming language:
@pie_flavor said in Apparently, JavaScript is easy to learn, and HTML is a programming language:
You claimed that it's a language if it instructs the computer to do something. In the case of HTML, it's simply a visual layout. The computer isn't being instructed to do anything, it's simply being passed data. HTML does not accept input, it does not have conditionals, it does not do anything except describe a layout. Actual programming functionality is provided by JavaScript, which is a programming language.
It's the difference between manipulating data and being the data.@raceprouk said in Apparently, JavaScript is easy to learn, and HTML is a programming language:
@pie_flavor I think a better way to describe it is that markup languages describe the result, and programming languages describe how to get there.
So a hello world program isn't a program? I still find this all quite arbitrary.
This is data:
<html><body>Hello World!</body></html>
This is still data:
<html><body><b><i>Hello World!</i></b></body></html>
This is an instruction to do something with data:
Console.WriteLine("Hello World!");
There is fuck-all difference between the three besides where the data is output. At least do some string concatenation or something. Something FizzBuzzy? Something. Otherwise all three are just instructions to output static data.
No. The third is an instruction to output static data. The first two ARE static data. All HTML is static data.
No. They are exactly equal. The HTML you presented is also an instruction to output static data.
It really isn't. Unless a
.txt
file is also an instruction to output static data (and therefore all text being a programming language).
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@boomzilla said in Apparently, JavaScript is easy to learn, and HTML is a programming language:
@pie_flavor said in Apparently, JavaScript is easy to learn, and HTML is a programming language:
No. The third is an instruction to output static data. The first two ARE static data. All HTML is static data.
Most code is static data. Self modifying code is scary.
Now who's being silly about semantics?
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@pie_flavor said in Apparently, JavaScript is easy to learn, and HTML is a programming language:
@boomzilla said in Apparently, JavaScript is easy to learn, and HTML is a programming language:
@pie_flavor said in Apparently, JavaScript is easy to learn, and HTML is a programming language:
No. The third is an instruction to output static data. The first two ARE static data. All HTML is static data.
Most code is static data. Self modifying code is scary.
Now who's being silly about semantics?
I thought it was you. I still can't figure out why you think one is "static data" and the other is an "instruction to output static data."
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@pie_flavor said in Apparently, JavaScript is easy to learn, and HTML is a programming language:
It really isn't.
It really is. One is rendered by a browser. The other by a console.
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@boomzilla said in Apparently, JavaScript is easy to learn, and HTML is a programming language:
@pie_flavor said in Apparently, JavaScript is easy to learn, and HTML is a programming language:
@boomzilla said in Apparently, JavaScript is easy to learn, and HTML is a programming language:
@pie_flavor said in Apparently, JavaScript is easy to learn, and HTML is a programming language:
No. The third is an instruction to output static data. The first two ARE static data. All HTML is static data.
Most code is static data. Self modifying code is scary.
Now who's being silly about semantics?
I thought it was you. I still can't figure out why you think one is "static data" and the other is an "instruction to output static data."
Because one of them is static data, and the other is an instruction to output static data.
Please explain how on earth HTML is an instruction and not the data itself.
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@polygeekery said in Apparently, JavaScript is easy to learn, and HTML is a programming language:
@pie_flavor said in Apparently, JavaScript is easy to learn, and HTML is a programming language:
It really isn't.
It really is. One is rendered by a browser. The other by a console.
The browser renders the HTML. The console does not render the C#. The console renders the data that is piped to the standard output.
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@pie_flavor said in Apparently, JavaScript is easy to learn, and HTML is a programming language:
Please explain how on earth HTML is an instruction and not the data itself.
The various tags instruct the browser how to display the stuff. A browser reads the html and produces output based on those instructions.
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@pie_flavor said in Apparently, JavaScript is easy to learn, and HTML is a programming language:
@polygeekery said in Apparently, JavaScript is easy to learn, and HTML is a programming language:
@pie_flavor said in Apparently, JavaScript is easy to learn, and HTML is a programming language:
@polygeekery said in Apparently, JavaScript is easy to learn, and HTML is a programming language:
@pie_flavor said in Apparently, JavaScript is easy to learn, and HTML is a programming language:
@boomzilla said in Apparently, JavaScript is easy to learn, and HTML is a programming language:
@pie_flavor said in Apparently, JavaScript is easy to learn, and HTML is a programming language:
You claimed that it's a language if it instructs the computer to do something. In the case of HTML, it's simply a visual layout. The computer isn't being instructed to do anything, it's simply being passed data. HTML does not accept input, it does not have conditionals, it does not do anything except describe a layout. Actual programming functionality is provided by JavaScript, which is a programming language.
It's the difference between manipulating data and being the data.@raceprouk said in Apparently, JavaScript is easy to learn, and HTML is a programming language:
@pie_flavor I think a better way to describe it is that markup languages describe the result, and programming languages describe how to get there.
So a hello world program isn't a program? I still find this all quite arbitrary.
This is data:
<html><body>Hello World!</body></html>
This is still data:
<html><body><b><i>Hello World!</i></b></body></html>
This is an instruction to do something with data:
Console.WriteLine("Hello World!");
There is fuck-all difference between the three besides where the data is output. At least do some string concatenation or something. Something FizzBuzzy? Something. Otherwise all three are just instructions to output static data.
No. The third is an instruction to output static data. The first two ARE static data. All HTML is static data.
No. They are exactly equal. The HTML you presented is also an instruction to output static data.
It really isn't. Unless a
.txt
file is also an instruction to output static data (and therefore all text being a programming language).Now you're just being silly.
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@masonwheeler wasn't supposed to be real ruby code, just English as a programming language
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@ben_lubar said in Apparently, JavaScript is easy to learn, and HTML is a programming language:
If I open Microsoft Word and type some text into it, by your definition, I have just created a computer program that displays the text I typed.
Actually, Word created the program part for you via autogenerated code with your input text as the only difference from generic garbage.
It's exactly like Visual Basic, amirite?
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@boomzilla said in Apparently, JavaScript is easy to learn, and HTML is a programming language:
The various tags instruct the browser how to display the stuff.
Wrong.
The tags instruct the browser what to display. The spec tells the browser how to display it.
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@raceprouk said in Apparently, JavaScript is easy to learn, and HTML is a programming language:
@boomzilla said in Apparently, JavaScript is easy to learn, and HTML is a programming language:
The various tags instruct the browser how to display the stuff.
Wrong.
The tags instruct the browser what to display. The spec tells the browser how to display it.
Just like the spec tells the C# compiler how to compile? I'm not sure what point you're trying to make, but you seem to at least have gotten over the silly, "html isn't a programming language" thing, so congratulations.
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@boomzilla And now I know why Blakeyrat hates you.
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These listicles are always, always, terrible and stupid.
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@raceprouk said in Apparently, JavaScript is easy to learn, and HTML is a programming language:
@boomzilla And now I know why Blakeyrat hates you.
Yes, he hates to be wrong, too.
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@aapis said in Apparently, JavaScript is easy to learn, and HTML is a programming language:
These
litesticles are always, always, terrible and stupid.at least, that's what I read.
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@raceprouk said in Apparently, JavaScript is easy to learn, and HTML is a programming language:
@boomzilla said in Apparently, JavaScript is easy to learn, and HTML is a programming language:
The various tags instruct the browser how to display the stuff.
Wrong.
The tags instruct the browser what to display. The spec tells the browser how to display it.
There is not a hare's breath of difference between those two statements.
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@boomzilla said in Apparently, JavaScript is easy to learn, and HTML is a programming language:
@pie_flavor said in Apparently, JavaScript is easy to learn, and HTML is a programming language:
Please explain how on earth HTML is an instruction and not the data itself.
The various tags instruct the browser how to display the stuff. A browser reads the html and produces output based on those instructions.
No. The various tags describe the stuff. They don't instruct anything about anything.
If I was vividly describing to you my cat's fur pattern, someone who was trying to be profound might say that I was instructing you how to imagine it. But only a fool, or someone who didn't have a firm grasp of English, would actually consider it instruction. It would be only instruction in such an obtusely abstract way that the descriptor becomes useless.
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@darkmatter said in Apparently, JavaScript is easy to learn, and HTML is a programming language:
@masonwheeler wasn't supposed to be real ruby code, just English as a programming language
Then you should have gone for AppleScript:
set a to 1 repeat until a is equal to 5 set a to a + 1 end repeat
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@boomzilla said in Apparently, JavaScript is easy to learn, and HTML is a programming language:
Most code is static data. Self modifying code is scary.
Most webapps output HTML, and HTML is code, so webapps are scary? I'm inclined to agree.
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@pie_flavor said in Apparently, JavaScript is easy to learn, and HTML is a programming language:
The various tags describe the stuff. They don't instruct anything about anything.
And you don't see the contradiction in those two sentences?
@pie_flavor said in Apparently, JavaScript is easy to learn, and HTML is a programming language:
It would be only instruction in such an obtusely abstract way that the descriptor becomes useless.
So bad analogy is bad?
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@boomzilla said in Apparently, JavaScript is easy to learn, and HTML is a programming language:
So bad analogy is bad?
Time to double down then.
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@timebandit said in Apparently, JavaScript is easy to learn, and HTML is a programming language:
You need better non-volatile RAM
Either that or the memory of the article was garbage collected.
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@polygeekery said in Apparently, JavaScript is easy to learn, and HTML is a programming language:
It really is.
No variables. No conditionals. No looping (or recursion). Whatever its utility, it isn't a programming language.
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@boomzilla said in Apparently, JavaScript is easy to learn, and HTML is a programming language:
And you don't see the contradiction in those two sentences?
.... And you do?
@boomzilla said in Apparently, JavaScript is easy to learn, and HTML is a programming language:
So bad analogy is bad?
It's a good analogy. You can't just claim it's wrong, you have to say why.
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@dkf Kind of specific to the interactive fiction domain, but Inform is and it's rather interesting.
Variables:
Weight is a kind of value. The weights are light, manageable, and horribly heavy. Everything has a weight. A thing is usually manageable.
Conditionals:
Instead of drinking the waterskin: if the waterskin is partly drained, now the waterskin is empty; if the waterskin is full, now the waterskin is partly drained; say "You drink a long draught."
Loops:
Every turn when the player is in the cage: if a random chance of 1 in 2 succeeds, say "The lion eyes you with obvious discontent."; otherwise say "Though the lion does not move, you are aware that it is watching you closely."
That sort of thing. It's pretty interesting. I've seen some complicated Inform before (usually in extensions), but I'd say you could generally take any random page of a story's code and give it to a random person and they'll be able to understand perfectly what it does.
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@heterodox Inform 7, specifically (the others are completely separate). And I love that language too. My favorite line from a game I've seen:
Recognize "cretin" as the player.
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@pie_flavor said in Apparently, JavaScript is easy to learn, and HTML is a programming language:
.... And you do?
Obviously.
@pie_flavor said in Apparently, JavaScript is easy to learn, and HTML is a programming language:
It's a good analogy. You can't just claim it's wrong, you have to say why.
As you said, the various tags describe the stuff. The browser does things based on the tags. That's self evidently a program that the browser is interpreting. It does the same thing every time. Then you talk about a person imagining a cat based on a description. You're so invested on the idea of a description that you're ignoring the essence of a computer program, which (in this case, because it's interpreted) instructs an interpreter what to do.
You can talk about talking and cats and whatever else, but the html is still instructing the browser what to display to the user. The analogy is bad because it doesn't address the fundamental nature of a computer program. It's sophistry.
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@timebandit said in Apparently, JavaScript is easy to learn, and HTML is a programming language:
@antiquarian said in Apparently, JavaScript is easy to learn, and HTML is a programming language:
What's past insanity?
Discourse
And beyond that is SSDS.
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@pie_flavor said in Apparently, JavaScript is easy to learn, and HTML is a programming language:
You can't just claim it's wrong, you have to say why.
YMBNH
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@polygeekery said in Apparently, JavaScript is easy to learn, and HTML is a programming language:
hare's breath
You're going on the list.
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@coldandtired said in Apparently, JavaScript is easy to learn, and HTML is a programming language:
@polygeekery said in Apparently, JavaScript is easy to learn, and HTML is a programming language:
hare's breath
You're going on the list.
So I get a xmas card this year?
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@Polygeekery You can hang it on the wall you'll be first up against
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@coldandtired to be fair, I have been meaning to save that little nugget for @HardwareGeek, but I gave up.
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@gurth said in Apparently, JavaScript is easy to learn, and HTML is a programming language:
Then you should have gone for AppleScript:
set a to 1 repeat until a is equal to 5 set a to a + 1 end repeat
@blakeyrat alt confirmed!
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@heterodox said in Apparently, JavaScript is easy to learn, and HTML is a programming language:
Conditionals:
Instead of drinking the waterskin: if the waterskin is partly drained, now the waterskin is empty; if the waterskin is full, now the waterskin is partly drained; say "You drink a long draught."
...
That sort of thing. It's pretty interesting. I've seen some complicated Inform before (usually in extensions), but I'd say you could generally take any random page of a story's code and give it to a random person and they'll be able to understand perfectly what it does.
That one, I don't quite understand. Why "instead of," when the context suggests it means "when" or "upon"?