Servo alternative logo proposals
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Servo alternative logo proposals
Personally I'm partial to but I think might do better in focus groups.
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@zecc I'd say they should use , but I'm afraid Jeff might sue.
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WTF is Servo anyway?
Servo is a prototype web browser engine written in the Rust language.
Oh. I think the following captures the true feeling that that gives me:
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@dkf said in Servo alternative logo proposals:
Oh. I think the following captures the true feeling that that gives me:
Not that it should sway your feelings, but wasn't building a better web browser the whole reason for Rust's creation?
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@boomzilla said in Servo alternative logo proposals:
Not that it should sway your feelings, but wasn't building a better web browser the whole reason for Rust's creation?
So I understand it. I'm not sure if they've quite managed to persuade their compiler that a GUI is a permissible thing yet…
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@boomzilla said in Servo alternative logo proposals:
@dkf said in Servo alternative logo proposals:
Oh. I think the following captures the true feeling that that gives me:
Not that it should sway your feelings, but wasn't building a better web browser the whole reason for Rust's creation?
OK. So where's the better web browser?
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@el_heffe said in Servo alternative logo proposals:
OK. So where's the better web browser?
I dunno...that was just what Mozilla said in exasperation at C++ when they started Rust.
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@boomzilla said in Servo alternative logo proposals:
@el_heffe said in Servo alternative logo proposals:
OK. So where's the better web browser?
I dunno...that was just what Mozilla said in exasperation at C++ when they started Rust.
Every time I look at C++ it makes my brain hurt. But I'm not sure inventing an entirely new language is the answer.
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@timebandit said in Servo alternative logo proposals:
@el_heffe said in Servo alternative logo proposals:
OK. So where's the better web browser?
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@el_heffe said in Servo alternative logo proposals:
Every time I look at C++ it makes my brain hurt. But I'm not sure inventing an entirely new language is the answer.
IIRC the argument was something along the lines of needing something that was compiled to native code with similar size / performance characteristics to C++ but without the awful memory catastrophes, and I think the consensus was that there wasn't such a thing.
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@boomzilla Honestly, they should abandon Firefox and focus on Rust. There's a bigger market gap in programming languages than in web browsers.
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@anonymous234 Is there? That would basically leave a single cross platform browser, since so many things are build on Chromium.
But I suppose replacing C++ with something a lot safer would probably have an overall bigger benefit (not that I'd expect to see a lot of legacy code ported over).
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@el_heffe said in Servo alternative logo proposals:
OK. So where's the better web browser?
They're remaking the render engine, not the UI, if that's what you mean.
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@dkf You know that gif gave me an idea, so I went to see if dumpsterfire.com was registered. It's a fantasy football site. WTF?
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@boomzilla said in Servo alternative logo proposals:
IIRC the argument was something along the lines of needing something that was compiled to native code with similar size / performance characteristics to C++ but without the awful memory catastrophes, and I think the consensus was that there wasn't such a thing.
Isn't D that? I mean I know it's not popular, but it existed.
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@anonymous234 said in Servo alternative logo proposals:
@boomzilla Honestly, they should abandon Firefox and focus on Rust. There's a bigger market gap in programming languages than in web browsers.
There's a HUGE market gap is good programming languages. (Those with IDEs, fully-functional graphical debuggers, sensible build systems, etc.) Only maybe 4 of those exist, and only two are strongly-typed.
There's no market in "programming languages", on the contrary: there are way too many. (To give one example: there's no reason for Go to exist if Rust also exists, and there's probably no reason for either of those to exist if D exists.) But none of them have any decent tooling.
if Mozilla wants Rust to be successful, they need to build the Visual Studio/.NET for Rust. But they won't, because they're too lazy and that takes real effort.
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@el_heffe said in Servo alternative logo proposals:
Every time I look at C++ it makes my brain hurt. But I'm not sure inventing an entirely new language is the answer.
Particularly since we've got all the rest of them to choose from anyway, and they all solve that problem.
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@blakeyrat said in Servo alternative logo proposals:
and there's probably no reason for either of those to exist if D exists.
You realize D is literally the only programming language ever to make most of the serious mistakes C++ made that literally everyone else has refrained from because they're disasters in C++, don't you?
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@masonwheeler said in Servo alternative logo proposals:
You realize D is literally the only programming language ever to make most of the serious mistakes C++ made that literally everyone else has refrained from because they're disasters in C++, don't you?
No. I've never used it (or Go, or Rust) because the tooling's shit. When your development tools are worse than a copy of Microsoft BASIC for Mac from 1985, you have problems.
I just know it's compiled, object-oriented, and memory-safe and based on C++ syntax. Right? So it's basically the memory-safe C++ that the Mozilla people were looking for.
Maybe it is shit, I don't know. I'm just saying from my naive perspective, it feels like the "invented" something that already existed. And now have Jonathan Blow, BTW, creating yet another one of those. (And also repeating a ton of mistakes from the Go team.)
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@blakeyrat said in Servo alternative logo proposals:
if Mozilla wants Rust to be successful, they need to build the Visual Studio/.NET for Rust. But they won't, because they're too lazy and that takes real effort.
https://marketplace.visualstudio.com/items?itemName=kalitaalexey.vscode-rust
https://intellij-rust.github.io/features/ (no decent onebox on this one)
Edit to clarify: not a Rust fanboi. I haven't used it for anything serious, just a couple of tests. For one thing, it lacks a GUI framework, though there are have been attempts at it as well as bindings to existing C++s libraries.
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@zecc "Extension for Visual Studio Code" is great, but that's like 1/50th of what Visual Studio proper offers, at best.
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@blakeyrat Maybe. Probably. How much use do the remaining 49/50ths get?
The really important language-dependent features which come to mind are syntax highlighting, to-symbol navigation, code completion, documentation popups, compiling, navigating to the source of compilation errors, debugging.
Having said that: if you want a form designer you're SOL, because as I mentioned there is no well-established GUI framework. Same goes for resource editing.
But. Current tooling isn't complete shit, was the point.
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@zecc said in Servo alternative logo proposals:
The really important language-dependent features which come to mind are syntax highlighting, to-symbol navigation, code completion, documentation popups, compiling, navigating to the source of compilation errors, debugging.
That covers the IDE-like stuff, but you also need a strong and comprehensive set of libraries like .NET, so people aren't doing the Node.JS bullshit of pulling from 583,073 low-quality open source shit-libraries because there's no central organization out there making a single high-quality library.
That's the part that takes a lot of work, which is why open source (development methodology) languages never do it.
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@zecc What about automated refactoring, testing frameworks, packaging and deployment toolkits, package managers, and stuff like that that's very useful for modern development?
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@blakeyrat said in Servo alternative logo proposals:
There's a HUGE market gap is good programming languages. (Those with IDEs, fully-functional graphical debuggers, sensible build systems, etc.) Only maybe 4 of those exist, and only two are strongly-typed.
I guess you mean C# and Java, but I have no idea what other 2 you're thinking about. I'm curious, what are the ones you think have decent tools, other than Visual Studio?
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@wharrgarbl It was an asspull. If I came in here and said C# was the only one I'd get 50,000 replies all like "nuh-uh! Super Open Source-y Ruby IDE is just as good! Blarp blarp!" and I didn't want to deal with that shit so I padded the number. Plus I've never used every IDE ever. Plus it brings up questions like, "do you count SQL?"
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@wharrgarbl Delphi fit that description.
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@blakeyrat said in Servo alternative logo proposals:
That covers the IDE-like stuff, but you also need a strong and comprehensive set of libraries like .NET, so people aren't doing the Node.JS bullshit of pulling from 583,073 low-quality open source shit-libraries because there's no central organization out there making a single high-quality library.
Well, Rust is meant to replace C++, not .NET so avoiding the lack of a high-quality standard library is not a goal.
@raceprouk said in Servo alternative logo proposals:
@zecc What about automated refactoring, testing frameworks, packaging and deployment toolkits, package managers, and stuff like that that's very useful for modern development?
IntelliJ Rust lists refactoring as a WIP feature. I don't know about the VSCode extension.
Package management is done via Cargo (Cargo is sort of Rust's npm), so you do have to drop to a CLI.
Unit tests can be added alongside the source code and marked with a
test
attribute to be compiled and run viacargo test
. They can also be added in documentation comments, which is a pretty cool idea if you ask me. IDE support is probably lacking in this department, I don't know.Packaging and deployment toolkits... Script it? :nervous_smile:
Now let me go, I'm not an authority on Rust or its tooling!
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@blakeyrat said in Servo alternative logo proposals:
There's a HUGE market gap is good programming languages. (Those with IDEs, fully-functional graphical debuggers, sensible build systems, etc.)
It looks like you don't know what "language" means.
@blakeyrat said in Servo alternative logo proposals:
there's no reason for Go to exist
Agreed.
@blakeyrat said in Servo alternative logo proposals:
if Mozilla wants Rust to be successful, they need to build the Visual Studio/.NET for Rust. But they won't
Thankfully, JetBrains is doing this for them. Recently they made Rust plugin for IntelliJ IDEA their official product, with paid developers working on it. I used a pre-release version from just before that, and it had all the most important features except debugging (but they're working on that). Although project management needs a lot of polish.
@blakeyrat said in Servo alternative logo proposals:
"Extension for Visual Studio Code" is great, but that's like 1/50th of what Visual Studio proper offers, at best.
There's also Rust plugin for actual Visual Studio. Last time I checked it was rather unstable and code completion was extremely slow, but it has working debugger.
I expect both of these plugins to improve over time, and in a few years they might become truly production-quality IDEs.
@blakeyrat said in Servo alternative logo proposals:
That covers the IDE-like stuff, but you also need a strong and comprehensive set of libraries like .NET, so people aren't doing the Node.JS bullshit of pulling from 583,073 low-quality open source shit-libraries because there's no central organization out there making a single high-quality library.
You don't believe in a free market, do you?
@blakeyrat said in Servo alternative logo proposals:
That's the part that takes a lot of work
Which means it cannot be done instantly even if they wanted. Especially since some of Rust features make it hard to copy established design patterns, so people often have to figure out stuff from scratch.
Fun fact: Firefox uses Rust code in production since version 54. Currently it's small stuff, like decoding MP4 file headers, but with time it'll be more and more.
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@gąska said in Servo alternative logo proposals:
I expect both of these plugins to improve over time, and in a few years they might become truly production-quality IDEs.
But none of them treat Rust as a first-class citizen. Maybe in the future they will.
@gąska said in Servo alternative logo proposals:
You don't believe in a free market, do you?
It's not a "market" if no money's involved.
In any case, I don't see what preferring a single well-written library over tens of thousands of poorly-written libraries has to do with a free market even slightly. Gonna have to unpack this one for me.
@gąska said in Servo alternative logo proposals:
Which means it cannot be done instantly even if they wanted.
True; but they could get the basics down-pat before they start asking other people to try/use it. Being open source doesn't prevent you from creating a quality product.
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@blakeyrat said in Servo alternative logo proposals:
But none of them treat Rust as a first-class citizen. Maybe in the future they will
Actually, the JetBrains plugin system allows you to do exactly that. So the IntelliJ plugin probably does actually treat it as a first class language.
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@sloosecannon If it's a plugin, it's not a first-class language.
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@blakeyrat said in Servo alternative logo proposals:
@sloosecannon If it's a plugin, it's not a first-class language.
Well, in that case, nothing is a first-class language. I'm pretty sure IntelliJ's Java support is technically a plugin
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@blakeyrat said in Servo alternative logo proposals:
It's not a "market" if no money's involved.
You fail economics forever.
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@masonwheeler Right, I'm a stupid idiot moron dumbshit, etc.
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@blakeyrat said in Servo alternative logo proposals:
But none of them treat Rust as a first-class citizen.
No more than Visual Studio treats F# first-class. Yet it's perfectly viable IDE for F# development.
@blakeyrat said in Servo alternative logo proposals:
In any case, I don't see what preferring a single well-written library over tens of thousands of poorly-written libraries has to do with a free market even slightly. Gonna have to unpack this one for me.
There's no point competing with Microsoft's libraries for .NET, which means if Microsoft releases shitty library, everyone has to use it. I've never done C# professionally, but I doubt there aren't any MS libraries that have WTFs on every corner.
@blakeyrat said in Servo alternative logo proposals:
True; but they could get the basics down-pat before they start asking other people to try/use it.
The thing is, everyone has different definition of basic. For some, it means GUI editor of GUIs. For others, it means running on some microcontroller family. And there are those who consider seamless C++ integration an essential feature. And don't forget those Haskell weirdos who don't consider a language to be complete if it doesn't have higher-ranked polymorphism.
Rust ecosystem is missing many things at the moment. But most of the basics are completed, so you can safely use Rust for production-ready software in many domains. I mean, Dropbox has been using it for over a year now.
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@gąska said in Servo alternative logo proposals:
I've never done C# professionally, but I doubt there aren't any MS libraries that have WTFs on every corner.
WPF is based on a poor concept, but the code's solid. The whole thing about 400 web statuses throwing exceptions is kind of a wart. But all-told, it's pretty damned high quality stuff.
@gąska said in Servo alternative logo proposals:
The thing is, everyone has different definition of basic.
Yeah but a lot of those people are wrong.
@gąska said in Servo alternative logo proposals:
I mean, Dropbox has been using it for over a year now.
Is that why those fuckers are getting rid of the Shared folder? Fuck them.
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@gąska said in Servo alternative logo proposals:
There's no point competing with Microsoft's libraries for .NET, which means if Microsoft releases shitty library, everyone has to use it.
So nobody makes their own ORMs or web servers or LINQ implementations or Date-Time implementations or... ???
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@blakeyrat said in Servo alternative logo proposals:
Being open source doesn't prevent you from creating a quality product.
Are you alright? Has Linus kidnapped you?
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@masonwheeler said in Servo alternative logo proposals:
@gąska said in Servo alternative logo proposals:
There's no point competing with Microsoft's libraries for .NET, which means if Microsoft releases shitty library, everyone has to use it.
So nobody makes their own ORMs or web servers or LINQ implementations or Date-Time implementations or... ???
Are they being used?
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@blakeyrat said in Servo alternative logo proposals:
@gąska said in Servo alternative logo proposals:
I've never done C# professionally, but I doubt there aren't any MS libraries that have WTFs on every corner.
WPF is based on a poor concept, but the code's solid. The whole thing about 400 web statuses throwing exceptions is kind of a wart. But all-told, it's pretty damned high quality stuff.
Is WPF the only thing MS ever produced?
@blakeyrat said in Servo alternative logo proposals:
@gąska said in Servo alternative logo proposals:
The thing is, everyone has different definition of basic.
Yeah but a lot of those people are wrong.
So please, enlighten us with the absolute truth of what constitutes the basics of an ecosystem. I'm dying to know.
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@gąska said in Servo alternative logo proposals:
Is WPF the only thing MS ever produced?
Yes.
WPF is the only thing MS ever produced.
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@blakeyrat then it's indeed true they never released anything but the most perfect libraries on Earth. I stand corrected.
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@zecc said in Servo alternative logo proposals:
Package management is done via Cargo (Cargo is sort of Rust's npm)
The question remains: do we really need a package manager for each language?
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@anonymous234 said in Servo alternative logo proposals:
@zecc said in Servo alternative logo proposals:
Package management is done via Cargo (Cargo is sort of Rust's npm)
The question remains: do we really need a package manager for each language?
Considering the state of OS-wide repos (Windows and OSX not having one, Linux distros being incompatible with each other and often years out of date), yes we do.
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@gąska said in Servo alternative logo proposals:
Considering the state of OS-wide repos (Windows and OSX not having one, Linux distros being incompatible with each other and often years out of date), yes we do.
Also, there's a lot of libraries that simply aren't in those distro repos.