The UK is becoming a police state.
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@lucas1 I think they still have truncheons though. Or something similar, anyway.
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@RaceProUK said in The UK is becoming a police state.:
Based on some of the stories I've read about UK police, the AI might do a better job
Based on some of the stories I've read about sentencing decision support systems, no, it wouldn't.
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@RaceProUK said in The UK is becoming a police state.:
I think they still have truncheons
No, they're just pleased to see you
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@RaceProUK Side-baton, pepper-spray and maybe a taser.
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@lucas1 said in The UK is becoming a police state.:
Any computer related crime has quite hard penalties in the UK.
I hope the law apply to everyone
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Up next, total control over the Internet
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Is this the new British colonialism?
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@coderpatsy No, just more control over UK population.
And opportunism...
There has been no suggestion yet that encryption, which keeps messages from being read by hackers, played any part in the attack. Neither has it been suggested that the extended powers would have prevented such an attack.
Quick, while people are still shocked by the attack, let's remove more freedom !!!
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@TimeBandit a soundbite that sounds good to non technical people and makes it sound like something can be done
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@Jaloopa Wait until Theresa May learn about this app
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@RaceProUK said in The UK is becoming a police state.:
truncheons
It's called a bobbyknob over there
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@TimeBandit said in The UK is becoming a police state.:
Indeed. But actually funding the police and security services enough that they can investigate the potential terrorists they've already been told about and decide which ones to arrest and prosecute prior to them killing a lot of citizens, as opposed to laying off thousands of police officers, that's not possible it seems…
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@TimeBandit said in The UK is becoming a police state.:
Just the latest in a long line of Tory policies hell-bent on removing civil liberties instead of funding law enforcement and national security properly because that money is better off in accounts in offshore tax havens belonging to high-paid execs. Or something.
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@RaceProUK said in The UK is becoming a police state.:
removing civil liberties
"We must protect freedom of speech by banning free speech if it threatens to cause a protest."
Yes, this is really a bill my state congress is trying to pass.
https://legis.wisconsin.gov/senate/05/vukmir/media/1101/17-2443_1.pdf
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@ben_lubar Great. The person who wrote this law and anyone who votes for it needs to be sent to remedial Government class.
With specific emphasis on the First and Tenth Amendments to the US Constitution.
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@ben_lubar wait what? Doesn't the bill say exact opposite of what you say - that invited speakers shall be able to say whatever they want and nobody can stop them?
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Sworn Law Enforcement Officers per 1,000,000 residents:
UK: 2,000
USA: 3,000Deaths by terrorists in 2017 to date (UK): 31
Deaths by Law Enforcement Officers to date (USA): 450 (pro-rata'd from 2016 estimates of 900-1100 yearly, since the US does not keep track of police killings)But sure, if you like, the UK is turning into a police state. Whatever.
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@gwowen said in The UK is becoming a police state.:
But sure, if you like, the UK is turning into a police state. Whatever.
Having the most CCTV cameras per capita in Europe and a government that thinks the Snoopers' Charter doesn't go far enough is obviously irrevelant then.
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@RaceProUK said in The UK is becoming a police state.:
Having the most CCTV cameras per capita in Europe
And how does that negatively affect your liberty?
Demonstrate harm, and I'll worry. Until then, you're just Maud Flanders with an anarchist mask.
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@gwowen You are aware CCTV is being increasingly used as a substitute for actual police, right?
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@RaceProUK said in The UK is becoming a police state.:
You are aware CCTV is being increasingly used as a substitute for actual police, right?
How is that relevant to the question asked? Also [citation needed].
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@gwowen said in The UK is becoming a police state.:
Also [citation needed].
Every single news article that states both funding for police and numbers of police have dropped during the last five years.
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@RaceProUK said in The UK is becoming a police state.:
Every single news article that states both funding for police and numbers of police have dropped during the last five years.
Post hoc, ergo propter hoc.
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@Gąska said in The UK is becoming a police state.:
@ben_lubar wait what? Doesn't the bill say exact opposite of what you say - that invited speakers shall be able to say whatever they want and nobody can stop them?
It's weird. Everybody is free to speak and protest ((e) Any person lawfully present on campus may protest or demonstrate.). However, it's not OK to prevent somebody from speaking. The administration has to sanction individuals that violate that prohibition. And, presumably, the administration has to sanction itself at that point.
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@gwowen said in The UK is becoming a police state.:
@RaceProUK said in The UK is becoming a police state.:
Having the most CCTV cameras per capita in Europe
And how does that negatively affect your liberty?
Demonstrate harm, and I'll worry. Until then, you're just Maud Flanders with an anarchist mask.Ah, the old: If you have nothing to hide then you shouldn't be worried about snooping, right?
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@Rhywden said in The UK is becoming a police state.:
@gwowen said in The UK is becoming a police state.:
@RaceProUK said in The UK is becoming a police state.:
Having the most CCTV cameras per capita in Europe
And how does that negatively affect your liberty?
Demonstrate harm, and I'll worry. Until then, you're just Maud Flanders with an anarchist mask.Ah, the old: If you have nothing to hide then you shouldn't be worried about snooping, right?
A sentiment that usually comes from the same people who'll light the torch and brandish the pitchforks the instant a camera is erected that looks over their property.
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@Gąska said in The UK is becoming a police state.:
@ben_lubar wait what? Doesn't the bill say exact opposite of what you say - that invited speakers shall be able to say whatever they want and nobody can stop them?
Yeah, pretty much. It's basically saying that speech is fine, but actions intended to stop people from speaking are not.
@powerlord said in The UK is becoming a police state.:
@ben_lubar Great. The person who wrote this law and anyone who votes for it needs to be sent to remedial Government class.
With specific emphasis on the First and Tenth Amendments to the US Constitution.Can you elaborate? It reads like a bill directing the university how to ensure that people's First Amendment rights are respected. It's sad that this sort of thing appears to be needed.
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@gwowen said in The UK is becoming a police state.:
Sworn Law Enforcement Officers per 1,000,000 residents:
UK: 2,000
USA: 3,000Deaths by terrorists in 2017 to date (UK): 31
Deaths by Law Enforcement Officers to date (USA): 450 (pro-rata'd from 2016 estimates of 900-1100 yearly, since the US does not keep track of police killings)But sure, if you like, the UK is turning into a police state. Whatever.
Statistics! Is there any lie they can't tell?
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@boomzilla said in The UK is becoming a police state.:
Can you elaborate? It reads like a bill directing the university how to ensure that people's First Amendment rights are respected. It's sad that this sort of thing appears to be needed.
Moot point, it's still a class of law delegated to the Federal Government, not the states.
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@powerlord said in The UK is becoming a police state.:
@boomzilla said in The UK is becoming a police state.:
Can you elaborate? It reads like a bill directing the university how to ensure that people's First Amendment rights are respected. It's sad that this sort of thing appears to be needed.
Moot point, it's still a class of law delegated to the Federal Government, not the states.
First, that's incorrect:
Additionally, I can't believe that you actually believe that. There are a lot of people confused about what sorts of speech are not protected, but you'd be the first person I've heard who believes that States aren't subject to the First Amendment.
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@Gąska said in The UK is becoming a police state.:
@ben_lubar wait what? Doesn't the bill say exact opposite of what you say - that invited speakers shall be able to say whatever they want and nobody can stop them?
It bans people from using speech to try to stop a speaker at a university. This is a case where the government is saying the speech of one individual is more important than the speech of many others to the point where the others must be silenced.
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@ben_lubar said in The UK is becoming a police state.:
It bans people from using speech to try to stop a speaker at a university. This is a case where the government is saying the speech of one individual is more important than the speech of many others to the point where the others must be silenced.
Only if you think stuff like blocking doors and throwing rocks and that sort of thing is speech. Of course, there are illegal sorts of speech, like true threats, and this bill would reaffirm that, but I don't think anyone has a problem with that sort of thing, unless they're the sorts of cognitively dissonant fascists who do that sort of thing.
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@boomzilla said in The UK is becoming a police state.:
Additionally, I can't believe that you actually believe that. There are a lot of people confused about what sorts of speech are not protected, but you'd be the first person I've heard who believes that States aren't subject to the First Amendment.
To be fair, that is what the text says; as written it only applies to Congress and the states are welcome to be more restrictive if they'd like. It was only in the 20th century that the judiciary decided that wherever the Constitution says "Congress", it really means "Congress except when they don't feel like it(1), and the state legislatures (2)".
(1) See also: religious exemptions to the ACA, anti-Muslim immigration support.
(2) See also: states who can now tax interstate commerce.
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@ben_lubar said in The UK is becoming a police state.:
@Gąska said in The UK is becoming a police state.:
@ben_lubar wait what? Doesn't the bill say exact opposite of what you say - that invited speakers shall be able to say whatever they want and nobody can stop them?
It bans people from using speech to try to stop a speaker at a university.
Actually, it bans using bricks and baseball bats.
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@RaceProUK said in The UK is becoming a police state.:
Having the most CCTV cameras per capita in
Europeall the fuckin WorldFTFY
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@TimeBandit said in The UK is becoming a police state.:
and
For what purpose? Their cops can't effectively stop a person with a knife in time to save anyone's lives anyway.
And they monitored a guy they knew was radicalized and let him back from going to Libya anyway.
It's almost like the goal is to monitor the public to make sure they won't take "stopping the terrorists" into their own hands. Like UK gov. is in league with the enemy.
The goal isn't to protect the public from harm. It's to protect the government from insurrection.
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@gwowen said in The UK is becoming a police state.:
Deaths by terrorists in 2017 to date (UK): 31
Deaths by Law Enforcement Officers to date (USA): 450 (pro-rata'd from 2016 estimates of 900-1100 yearly, since the US does not keep track of police killings)When you say, "cops kill more innocent people than terrorists", it sounds exactly like "blacks kill more blacks than cops".
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@xaade you mean, it sounds like truth?
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@Gąska It misses the point.
Cops shouldn't be killing innocent people, and we should do what's reasonable to make sure that doesn't happen.
Same goes for terrorism.But, reasonable should be defined by what's actually effective, by honestly monitoring solutions for results, while making sure people's rights are protected.
The problem, lately, is that we all have different ideas of what people's rights are.
"I have the right to avoid feeling uncomfortable due to the presence of [idea, gun, etc], seems pretty popular lately."
And it's ok to have these different ideas. However, they need the correct course of action. You want to limit certain rights, you have to amend the constitution. Good luck getting that kind of support. Which is why politicians do everything else.
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@gwowen said in The UK is becoming a police state.:
Deaths by terrorists in 2017 to date (UK): 31
Deaths by Law Enforcement Officers to date (USA): 450 (pro-rata'd from 2016 estimates of 900-1100 yearly, since the US does not keep track of police killings)Well, your data clearly supports the removal of Law Enforcement, we should get working on it immediately.
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@xaade said in The UK is becoming a police state.:
@Gąska It misses the point.
Cops shouldn't be killing innocent people, and we should do what's reasonable to make sure that doesn't happen.
Same goes for terrorism.As opposed to blacks killing blacks? Which we shouldn't try to make it not happen?
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@Gąska said in The UK is becoming a police state.:
@xaade said in The UK is becoming a police state.:
@Gąska It misses the point.
Cops shouldn't be killing innocent people, and we should do what's reasonable to make sure that doesn't happen.
Same goes for terrorism.As opposed to blacks killing blacks? Which we shouldn't try to make it not happen?
That was not my intention.
My point was assuming that you do try to fix the obvious stuff, but don't argue against the lesser problems simply because they are lesser.
There's this mentality that seems to assume we can only fix one problem. Therefore there's no need to fix the lesser problems. It also makes the mistake of underestimating the risk of potentially increasing the problem just because it's small right now. This is a weird conclusion in my mind. (Terrorist kills are minimal, so there's low risk in importing people who could possibly add to their number).
I find it funny that all of this emphasis is placed on global warming because of what might happen if it's unchecked. Yet, we have the problem of terrorism which represents similar logical patterns.
The response is also similar. Please don't demonize hard-working people because they work in oil. Please don't eliminate their jobs without helping them establish new careers. Please don't demonize Muslims because some are terrorists. Please help refugees establish new lives in western civilization.
The fact that the problem of global warming often references terrorism, in that global warming is a bigger threat, is just icing on the cake of irony.
These patterns are remarkably common, where "one side" treats the other in the same manner that they complain they are treated.
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@xaade said in The UK is becoming a police state.:
Cops shouldn't be killing innocent people, and we should do what's reasonable to make sure that doesn't happen.
Same goes for terrorism.Of course, the statistic said nothing about innocent people shot by cops, which happens, but I suspect that wouldn't apply to most of the people shot by cops.
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@boomzilla said in The UK is becoming a police state.:
Additionally, I can't believe that you actually believe that. There are a lot of people confused about what sorts of speech are not protected, but you'd be the first person I've heard who believes that States aren't subject to the First Amendment.
Actually, I can't believe how badly you misinterpreted what I said.
What I said was that states can't pass laws regarding free speech because the 1st Amendment makes it a Federal issue and therefore the 10th Amendment doesn't grant states the right to pass laws about it.
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@powerlord said in The UK is becoming a police state.:
@boomzilla said in The UK is becoming a police state.:
Additionally, I can't believe that you actually believe that. There are a lot of people confused about what sorts of speech are not protected, but you'd be the first person I've heard who believes that States aren't subject to the First Amendment.
Actually, I can't believe how badly you misinterpreted what I said.
What I said was that states can't pass laws regarding free speech because the 1st Amendment makes it a Federal issue and therefore the 10th Amendment doesn't grant states the right to pass laws about it.
This is all sorts of wrong, and now I'm pretty sure you only read @ben_lubar's completely wrong description of the law, let alone your weird Constitutional legal theories.
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@boomzilla It's yet again thinking of rights as things that the government grants, rather than limitations on the government.
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@xaade said in The UK is becoming a police state.:
It's yet again thinking of rights as things that the government grants, rather than limitations on the government.
True, but if you'll recall the common arguments for gun control ("bearing arms is only necessary if we need a militia"), you'll see that that ship sailed a long time ago.