United Airlines: the airline we love to hate, but we can't agree on why
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@xaade said in United Airlines: the airline we love to hate, but we can't agree on why:
partial refund...buy coverage
Those are business strategies put in place by the airline.
@xaade said in United Airlines: the airline we love to hate, but we can't agree on why:
the fault of the airline
So they mess up but don't want to pay for it.
@xaade said in United Airlines: the airline we love to hate, but we can't agree on why:
This also happens. I've gotten two calls in recent years to move appointments. In both cases it was non-emergency "triage". Sometimes the provider themselves is sick. It happens.
That's not the same at all.
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@coldandtired said in United Airlines: the airline we love to hate, but we can't agree on why:
@xaade said in United Airlines: the airline we love to hate, but we can't agree on why:
the fault of the airline
So they mess up but don't want to pay for it.
Airlines also eat the cost of rescheduling passengers who get delayed because of weather (which @xaade mentioned in the quote you took a hatchet to).
For example, when I was a senior in high school, I was checking out some colleges around the US. In late February, I went up to Michigan to tour a school, I can't even remember which one. I had an alarm set about 5 hours before my flight was scheduled to leave, because on the good roads earlier that weekend, it had been a 90 minute drive from the airport, and there was supposed to be snow overnight. I figured it would be best to have some extra time. Well, the storm ended up heavier than expected, and I didn't get to the airport until an hour after my flight left, but the airline rescheduled my entire itinerary at their expense.
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@coldandtired said in United Airlines: the airline we love to hate, but we can't agree on why:
So they mess up but don't want to pay for it.
They DO pay for it.
They just have to pay for it twice when they need to put someone on a plane at capacity. At some point, a limit is reached, and they make the call to limit compensation, for whatever reason.
@coldandtired said in United Airlines: the airline we love to hate, but we can't agree on why:
That's not the same at all.
Yes it is.
I was bumped because someone else had a worse problem.
This passenger was bumped because his single seat weighed against a small army of seats certain to be affected.
The only mistake that was uncommon was letting him on the plane before they told him.
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@abarker That's their business decision. Would you expect a concert organizer to comp someone tickets to the next night's performance if they got delayed in the snow?
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@coldandtired said in United Airlines: the airline we love to hate, but we can't agree on why:
That's their business decision.
You keep saying this, but you deny it when they decide to affect one passenger because the alternative is affecting a few hundred.
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@xaade I don't deny it. I'm well aware that it was also a business decision, but I have a hard time believing that those were the only two possibilities.
In this instance it was a relatively good use of overselling in that the seats were needed for employees, but there are other occasions where it's simply done to earn more money, in a way that wouldn't be acceptable in pretty much any other industry.
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@coldandtired said in United Airlines: the airline we love to hate, but we can't agree on why:
@abarker That's their business decision. Would you expect a concert organizer to comp someone tickets to the next night's performance if they got delayed in the snow?
No. But the two things aren't comparable.
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@coldandtired said in United Airlines: the airline we love to hate, but we can't agree on why:
but there are other occasions where it's simply done to earn more money, in a way that wouldn't be acceptable in pretty much any other industry.
"Simply"? What's wrong with that? If they don't make money there's no airline.
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@xaade said in United Airlines: the airline we love to hate, but we can't agree on why:
@coldandtired said in United Airlines: the airline we love to hate, but we can't agree on why:
That's their business decision.
You keep saying this, but you deny it when they decide to affect one passenger because the alternative is affecting a few hundred.
That wasn't the only alternative and you that. You're being intellectually dishonest here. The alternator was offering the minimum someone else would take, and nobody seriously believe it would be too much relatively.
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@boomzilla said in United Airlines: the airline we love to hate, but we can't agree on why:
But the two things aren't comparable.
Why not? The snow wasn't the airline's fault.
@boomzilla said in United Airlines: the airline we love to hate, but we can't agree on why:
What's wrong with that? If they don't make money there's no airline.
Airlines don't have a god-given right to exist. If they can't make money with a full plane, and they can't raise the prices, why should it be okay to sell the same things twice?
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@coldandtired said in United Airlines: the airline we love to hate, but we can't agree on why:
@abarker That's their business decision. Would you expect a concert organizer to comp someone tickets to the next night's performance if they got delayed in the snow?
That's right. Blame the airlines for their windfall profits. That don't exist. Because airlines barely scrape by. Because it is a cutthroat business.
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@wharrgarbl said in United Airlines: the airline we love to hate, but we can't agree on why:
@xaade said in United Airlines: the airline we love to hate, but we can't agree on why:
@coldandtired said in United Airlines: the airline we love to hate, but we can't agree on why:
That's their business decision.
You keep saying this, but you deny it when they decide to affect one passenger because the alternative is affecting a few hundred.
That wasn't the only alternative and you that. You're being intellectually dishonest here. The alternator was offering the minimum someone else would take, and nobody seriously believe it would be too much relatively.
Your schizophasia is showing.
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@Polygeekery said in United Airlines: the airline we love to hate, but we can't agree on why:
Because airlines barely scrape by. Because it is a cutthroat business.
As are many other types of business. Why don't other businesses get away with selling the same thing twice?
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@coldandtired said in United Airlines: the airline we love to hate, but we can't agree on why:
Why don't other businesses get away with selling the same thing twice?
Because they don't impact government schedules which in turn impacts foreign government schedules.
And they're not actually selling it twice if you paid attention.
They're not selling you a seat. They're selling you passage. We're damned lucky they don't just sell you a ticket without a date attached and make you wait in the airport for a few days for the next available flight, like trains or ferries do.
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@xaade said in United Airlines: the airline we love to hate, but we can't agree on why:
ferries
Oh man, want to talk about a group that fucks their passengers every round, ferries certainly do. We vacationed in Cape Hatteras a few years back and the ferry fucked our whole day up. They sold twice as many tickets for each trip than there were available spots. I went to ask after we were not allowed to board the boat how early we should be for the next round. The guy suggested we not leave. You were expected to wait 2.5 hours to board the ferry, even though your ticket was for a certain time.
That's what monopolies get you.
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@coldandtired said in United Airlines: the airline we love to hate, but we can't agree on why:
Why not? The snow wasn't the airline's fault.
I wasn't talking about the weather.
@coldandtired said in United Airlines: the airline we love to hate, but we can't agree on why:
Airlines don't have a god-given right to exist.
I never said they did.
@coldandtired said in United Airlines: the airline we love to hate, but we can't agree on why:
If they can't make money with a full plane, and they can't raise the prices, why should it be okay to sell the same things twice?
Why not? It ends up costing them money if they get it wrong. Is there any better incentive than that to try to get it right? And we benefit by the fares being lower. Or by taking advantage of their misfortune to get even more for our money.
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@coldandtired said in United Airlines: the airline we love to hate, but we can't agree on why:
Why don't other businesses get away with selling the same thing twice?
Never heard of a rain check at a store?
Do other businesses have no shows like airlines do? If so, I'll bet they do something similar, especially if they can subsequently make good on their promise like airlines can and do.
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@Polygeekery said in United Airlines: the airline we love to hate, but we can't agree on why:
Oh man, want to talk about a group that fucks their passengers every round, ferries certainly do.
Every ferry I've ridden doesn't sell advanced tickets, you wait in line on the highway, and you pay when you board.
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@boomzilla said in United Airlines: the airline we love to hate, but we can't agree on why:
@coldandtired said in United Airlines: the airline we love to hate, but we can't agree on why:
Why don't other businesses get away with selling the same thing twice?
Never heard of a rain check at a store?
Do other businesses have no shows like airlines do? If so, I'll bet they do something similar, especially if they can subsequently make good on their promise like airlines can and do.
Also, ever preordered anything, from anywhere?
Sometimes it's out of their control too. Like the manufacturer screws up.
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@coldandtired said in United Airlines: the airline we love to hate, but we can't agree on why:
Why don't other businesses get away with selling the same thing twice?
Ever find out the theater oversold its seats?
Most frustrating case ever was standing in line for seats where they've counted out the seats even, and then finding out the only seats left are singles scattered around the theater.
I buy from theaters that assign seats ever since.
I mean, for a flight, unless it's a kid i have to sit next to, I can manage not sitting next to my wife, but I'll get a refund for a movie over it.
Even when they had assigned seats, one time we walked into a movie and found out that someone didn't sit in their assigned seat and it had dominoed around the theater, fortunately we had enough time during previews to walk around and undo the tangle. Asking that many people nicely just happened to work out that time.
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@boomzilla said in United Airlines: the airline we love to hate, but we can't agree on why:
Never heard of a rain check at a store?
Honestly, no. Looking it up it seems to mean that when an item is out of stock you can 'reserve' it at the reduced price. I've never ever seen it in practice, as there is always an asterisk with 'while stocks last' rider.
@boomzilla said in United Airlines: the airline we love to hate, but we can't agree on why:
It ends up costing them money if they get it wrong.
I don't think anyone else would care if this was the only effect, but it also causes things like
http://ca.reuters.com/article/idCAKBN17K04Q-OCATP?utm_source=34553&utm_medium=partner
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@xaade said in United Airlines: the airline we love to hate, but we can't agree on why:
Ever find out the theater oversold its seats?
Again, no. Are these all just American things?
@xaade said in United Airlines: the airline we love to hate, but we can't agree on why:
I can manage not sitting next to my wife, but I'll get a refund for a movie over it.
After watching the film?
@xaade said in United Airlines: the airline we love to hate, but we can't agree on why:
They're not selling you a seat. They're selling you passage.
What's the difference? They entered into an agreement with you to transport you at a specific time to a specific location, for which you have already paid.
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@coldandtired said in United Airlines: the airline we love to hate, but we can't agree on why:
Again, no. Are these all just American things?
Same here. Maybe Jeff isn't so atypical for an American, they're used to being jeffed out of things.
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@xaade said in United Airlines: the airline we love to hate, but we can't agree on why:
Every ferry I've ridden doesn't sell advanced tickets, you wait in line on the highway, and you pay when you board.
It depends a lot on how long the ferry trip is, and on the interval between trips. I've seen routes where there were multiple ferries on the same route; the ferries that used to run across the Storebælt in Denmark worked that way prior to the bridge being built. You waited in line on the highway, which was the main motorway across the country. :) The bridge doesn't have the same romance.
But with less frequent or longer trips, you most certainly do book into a specific sailing. That's the case with many of the ferry routes around the UK and Ireland.
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@coldandtired said in United Airlines: the airline we love to hate, but we can't agree on why:
Honestly, no. Looking it up it seems to mean that when an item is out of stock you can 'reserve' it at the reduced price. I've never ever seen it in practice, as there is always an asterisk with 'while stocks last' rider.
It was forced upon stores in response to the once-common bait-and-switch tactic:
SALE!! 80% OFF SAMSUNG 60" TVs
(select models only -- while supplies last)...when in truth, the store had exactly 2 of those TVs in stock, and was just hoping to get a bunch of extra people into the store to hopefully purchase other TVs when they're told the models that were on sale are out of stock.
Now, when stores have a sale with extremely limited quantity, they have to clearly advertise how many of them are available in order to avoid legal liability. Otherwise, they have to offer rain checks, although that really defeats the whole point of the tactic.
advertising a sale while intending to stock a limited amount of, and thereby sell out, a loss-leading item advertised is legal in the United States ... if they make clear in their advertisements that quantities of items for which a sale is offered are limited, or by offering a rain check on sold-out items
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@coldandtired said in United Airlines: the airline we love to hate, but we can't agree on why:
there is always an asterisk
These lies behind asterisks should be banned as false advertising.
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@wharrgarbl said in United Airlines: the airline we love to hate, but we can't agree on why:
@coldandtired said in United Airlines: the airline we love to hate, but we can't agree on why:
there is always an asterisk
There is a ISP here that advertises a very small price with an asterisk and a small text saying it's for the 3 first months only, then it gets expensive.
These lies behind asterisks should be banned as false advertising.
They are not false advertising, they are deceptive advertising.
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@Polygeekery that's just sugar coated lies
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@wharrgarbl said in United Airlines: the airline we love to hate, but we can't agree on why:
@Polygeekery that's just sugar coated lies
No. Lies would be telling you that you would be getting the low rate forever and ever until the heat death of the universe. Putting a low rate as a promotion to get you in the door is not. Phrasing it to where it tells the truth, but seems to say something else is deceptive advertising.
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Definition of lie
lied; lyingplay \ˈlī-iŋ
intransitive verb
1
: to make an untrue statement with intent to deceive She was lying when she said she didn't break the vase. He lied about his past experience.
2
: to create a false or misleading impression Statistics sometimes lie. The mirror never lies.
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@wharrgarbl said in United Airlines: the airline we love to hate, but we can't agree on why:
The mirror never lies.
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@wharrgarbl said in United Airlines: the airline we love to hate, but we can't agree on why:
There is a famous ISP here that advertises a very small price with an asterisk and a small text saying it's for the 3 first months only, then it gets expensive.
That's a very common practice for ISPs.
Back when I had DSL, my provider would give me a 6-month introductory rate. When that rate ended, I'd call them up and spend 30 minutes on the phone, and the end result would be "Okay, I've confirmed we still have an introductory rate available for your area. It's $xx.xx. Ok if I set that rate for your account?" and I'd get a very similar if not the same rate (one time it actually went down $5). 6 months later I'd have to call them and go through that again.
Now I have fiber from a different provider... it's twice the "introductory rate" that I was getting for DSL, but not much different from the regular rate they'd return me to every 6 months if I didn't call and hassle them. I never have to call and bug them. And it's much, much faster.
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@anotherusername I passed this one and signed to one were the salesman gave me a good price, we closed the deal, and started charging a higher price, and only backed down when I asked to cancel all the things.
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@coldandtired light blue text on a white background? Fucking hipster designers. Get off my goddamned grass.
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@coldandtired said in United Airlines: the airline we love to hate, but we can't agree on why:
After watching the film?
No, after I entered the theater and didn't have a seat.
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@coldandtired said in United Airlines: the airline we love to hate, but we can't agree on why:
Again, no. Are these all just American things?
The rare race condition happens.
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@wharrgarbl said in United Airlines: the airline we love to hate, but we can't agree on why:
: to create a false or misleading impression Statistics sometimes lie. The mirror never lies.
Um.... dude... it was small text, with an asterisk, on the same visible space.
I'm sorry, but that's not lying. It's not even deceptive.
That's just you being a lazy consumer.
I'd understand if it was on the back page of a 5+ page document, but comon.
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@xaade said in United Airlines: the airline we love to hate, but we can't agree on why:
@kt_ said in United Airlines: the airline we love to hate, but we can't agree on why:
This whole bumping thing is fucking awful. I'm not sure it's even legal in Poland or anywhere in Europe to do such a thing, but even if it is I never heard anyone being treated this way.
I'm surprised at how many people here with higher technical knowledge are surprised that situations can arise that cannot be accounted for and would require rearranging people on flights should the airline attempt to have more than halfway full planes.
Have any of you attempted concurrent programming, or anything that requires anticipating resource allotment?
I wasn't talking about the need to transport crew. I'm talking about overbooking and involuntarily choosing people who'd get bumped.
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@kt_ said in United Airlines: the airline we love to hate, but we can't agree on why:
I wasn't talking about the need to transport crew. I'm talking about overbooking and involuntarily choosing people who'd get bumped.
There are ways around that, but almost no one wants to pay that price.
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@Polygeekery I'd assume buying more expensive tickets (even just economy plus) would get you the privilege of not getting bumped?
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@PleegWat if people stopped buying the cheapest available flight, and were willing to pay for an airline that did not have to do stuff like this just to scrape by, this would not happen. I've never heard of anyone being bumped from a NetJets flight.
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@Polygeekery Well I expect most airlines take a bit more care to avoid finding out they have must-fly persons who haven't boarded after the plane is full.
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@Polygeekery said in United Airlines: the airline we love to hate, but we can't agree on why:
@kt_ said in United Airlines: the airline we love to hate, but we can't agree on why:
I wasn't talking about the need to transport crew. I'm talking about overbooking and involuntarily choosing people who'd get bumped.
There are ways around that, but almost no one wants to pay that price.
One of the cheapest airlines here in Europe (Ryanair) makes do without overbooking. So your argument is moot.
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@Polygeekery said in United Airlines: the airline we love to hate, but we can't agree on why:
@PleegWat if people stopped buying the cheapest available flight, and were willing to pay for an airline that did not have to do stuff like this just to scrape by, this would not happen. I've never heard of anyone being bumped from a NetJets flight.
That would be nice, but it would require training consumers not to treat low prices as a signal for high efficency.
There's asymmetry of information in these transactions: if one airline charges $400 for a ticket and another charges $800 for the same flight, how do you, the consumer, know how the difference is allocated? Maybe it goes into providing a higher standard of service. Maybe it feeds the CEO's cocaine and private yacht habit. Unless the company publishes a breakdown, which would be in effect giving away their secret sauce, there's no way to know.
However, if the price is lower, there's much less chance that your airfare is not funding things other than getting you from points A to B.
I'm not sure how to fix it. In the car industry, there are luxury brands and exotics, but informed car enthusiasts tend to be skeptical of those regardless.
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@Polygeekery said in United Airlines: the airline we love to hate, but we can't agree on why:
There are ways around that, but almost no one wants to pay that price.
How much more expensive it is, compared to united? It's probably cheaper if you're carrying a guitar.
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@kt_ said in United Airlines: the airline we love to hate, but we can't agree on why:
@Polygeekery said in United Airlines: the airline we love to hate, but we can't agree on why:
@kt_ said in United Airlines: the airline we love to hate, but we can't agree on why:
I wasn't talking about the need to transport crew. I'm talking about overbooking and involuntarily choosing people who'd get bumped.
There are ways around that, but almost no one wants to pay that price.
One of the cheapest airlines here in Europe (Ryanair) makes do without overbooking. So your argument is moot.
Ryanair has issues also.
New rule: Before you say that XYZ airlines does not have these issues, do a Google search for "XYZ airlines overbooked".
And now the thread dies with that rule.
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@Polygeekery said in United Airlines: the airline we love to hate, but we can't agree on why:
New rule: Before you say that XYZ airlines does not have these issues, do a Google search for "XYZ airlines overbooked".
I get what you're saying, but that's about as useful as googling "meat is bad for you" if you're looking for a balanced assessment of the pros and cons of veganism.
And now the thread dies with that rule.
I seem to remember someone proposed a "no data, no claims" rule on the CS forums. Were we to adhere to such a rule, conversations would be very short.
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@Groaner said in United Airlines: the airline we love to hate, but we can't agree on why:
I get what you're saying, but that's about as useful as googling "meat is bad for you" if you're looking for a balanced assessment of the pros and cons of veganism.
No. One would get every wingnut on the internet. The other would get direct news stories about how airlines have fucked up in the very same way. @kt_ made a claim that Ryanair never has these sorts of issues, and though I love his Nescafe rants and like him as a person, it took me 5 seconds of Googling to uncover a fiasco the exact same as UA but minus the airport police dragging someone off the plane.
For anyone else who wants to say that their airline never does such a thing, just keep in mind that I will do the 5 seconds of research to find out that they have. All commercial airlines are shit, they have been since the price wars started, and will continue to be until people stop searching Expedia for the cheapest flight.
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@Polygeekery you won't find this for uzanga airlines
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@wharrgarbl said in United Airlines: the airline we love to hate, but we can't agree on why:
@Polygeekery you won't find this for uzanga airlines
Because they don't exist?