Isn't it more sort of metameta by now?
Posts made by Arantor
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RE: How to keep the DOM small - The Discourse Way
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RE: I'm still a grumpy cat: a final plea to Alex
You don't see it as a one-size-fits-all. Unfortunately there are people that do and belittle the opinion of those who differ.
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RE: How to keep the DOM small - The Discourse Way
Precisely my point. That's the sort of reason that I detest SO. I don't, however, carry @morbiuswilters' level of vitriolic hate though.
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RE: I'm still a grumpy cat: a final plea to Alex
I'm counting DC and CS as separate things. I specifically meant this site, as in the TDWTF DC forum. You may have noticed I don't have an account on TDWTF CS forum ;) So my point stands... there is nothing on this site that is that level of fail.
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RE: I'm still a grumpy cat: a final plea to Alex
The worst conversations on this forum are still orders of magnitude more intelligent than the average YT comment ;)
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RE: I'm still a grumpy cat: a final plea to Alex
Latest from all the categories, for one. In this topic, I see only stuff from Meta or Meta > Bug. I don't see anything from Sidebar WTF even though there's a recent one there. But yes, back means 'go back to where I was, please'
It's a very different workflow to what I'm used to and what HardwareGeek seems to be used to. But that doesn't make it wrong, merely different. That's one of the great things about all the other forum software, for the most part it doesn't mandate how you should do things and lets you navigate it your way... not so much with Discourse.
I'd open things in more tabs and then just refresh the front page if that didn't consume a surprising amount of resources.
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RE: Selecting a seat with Qantas
You sir/madam/insert-preference, kindly accept One Internet for your contribution to the meme world.
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RE: Selecting a seat with Qantas
See, I got no fscking idea what's going on here. I didn't realise that that was what was going on because Discourse is so clear about such things without quoting people and I just assumed it was rage against Discourse because there's no shortage of that.
But yes, it does really end in ss when it's that magical piece of plastic.
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RE: I'm a happy cat
That's alright because this is nothing like Serenity.
You can learn all the math in the 'Verse, but you take a boat in the air that you don't love, she'll shake you off just as sure as the turning of the worlds. Love keeps her in the air when she oughta fall down, tells you she's hurtin' 'fore she keens. Makes her a home.
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RE: Wiki: Memes
I thought we already claimed ?!...!? as sarcasm tags?
Interestingly, except for here, it seems the more I talk, the less people listen anyway...
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RE: Know Your Daily WTF Memes
community you know and wuv. Troo wuv. Mawwiage, that bwessed awwaingement, that dweam within a dweam
FTFY
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RE: Viewing a user's posts from their profile, hides smileys/formatting
Pretend it's like UTF-8. You're dealing with multiple bytes that form a single unit ;)
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RE: Type your title here. What is the discussion about in one brief sentence?
And this has nothing to do with the changes in how crime got reported or anything.
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RE: I'm a happy cat
Except the part where it doesn't exactly have a driver who's like a leaf on the wind.
And I suppose nothing in the 'verse can stop a certain person's ego?
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RE: Selecting a seat with Qantas
Discuss does, but Discourse is more formal.
noun - written or spoken communication or debate. "the language of political discourse"
verb
- speak or write authoritatively about a topic.
"she could discourse at great length on the history of Europe"
- speak or write authoritatively about a topic.
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RE: Type your title here. What is the discussion about in one brief sentence?
Would it? Doesn't seem to be the case in London.
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RE: I'm still a grumpy cat: a final plea to Alex
What do you mean "we will create workarounds"? I was under the impression we were already in the post-release phase having created workarounds!
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RE: I'm a happy cat
OK, I'll bite. WHY does it excite you over any of the other forum platforms (of which there are a surprising number)?
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RE: Styling mixup with HTML and Markdown
Which is where the [ and ] for bbcode live, which is the only reason Markdown scores any points, because the characters are only one level down. Or it would score points if it wasn't so limited and unpredictable anyway.
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RE: Styling mixup with HTML and Markdown
I didn't even look at the mobile view because I sort of naively assumed the limited markup would just make things reflow nicely on mobile anyway... responsive design?
All that says to me is 'people on mobile aren't going to do formatting' because it's hard enough to type symbols, plus the fact that you can't see the tag soup...
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RE: How to keep the DOM small - The Discourse Way
And this is one of the reasons I despise StackOverflow. Almost any JavaScript problem will, at some point, acquire 'just do it in jQuery' as an answer even if it is totally the wrong answer for the question.
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RE: Links not taking users off to a new tab
It's not so much that I overlooked it - because once I knew it was there I found it straight away.
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RE: Finding XSS is fun and all...
So you build a subtree, tag by tag, and then add it. That'd solve the reflow but I'd hate to actually do that.
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RE: Front-page Comments Idea
O RLY?
Filed under: typing this from a MacBook Pro running Windows 7
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RE: Some proposed Discourse improvements for TDWTF
If everyone else did it, I wouldn't be so annoyed by it but I don't know any software that does this on the web.
I actually think I'd have been way more amenable to changing the web if you guys had done it one step at a time.
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RE: Styling mixup with HTML and Markdown
The problem is, as already demonstrated, mix and mash doesn't work.
My problem with all this: I have no damned idea what will come out of any given markup I insert. Yes, there's the preview window which is all lovely (and I've thought about this in other environments but never got past 'how do I not hammer the server')... but that seems to me to be part of the problem, not part of the solution.
The fact that you need a preview window like that almost seems like an admission of 'you probably don't know how your tag soup is going to come out, so let's let you look at it before you press the go button'.
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RE: Selecting a seat with Qantas
I keep wanting to type Discourage. Damn that muscle memory.
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RE: I'm a happy cat
RFC 1149 might be useful here.
Anyway. People hate change. We as a group are usually responsible for inflicting change on people and we understand the pain of change more than most (or should do)
The amount of culture shock from CS to DC is enormous. Almost any other forum (heck even phpBB) would have been a less painful move than to DC simply because of the culture shock. The fact that people have been giving it time to get used to and they're not adapting to the shock.
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RE: Selecting a seat with Qantas
I already proposed WTF points, which were lineagorithmic in nature. Then we have quite literally all the range.
Filed under: X all the Y meme
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RE: Viewing a user's posts from their profile, hides smileys/formatting
Now you have more problems.
Alternatively, of course, there's always solutions like putting them in a div with a fixed max-height and overflow:scroll.
There's all kinds of solutions, that have already been done, already tested and deployed in forums for years.
Filed under: smells like NIH syndrome
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RE: Wiki: Memes
You mean that thing that Discourse cleverly hides (contrary to just about every other forum software)?
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RE: Styling mixup with HTML and Markdown
So, am I supposed to write Markdown, bbcode or actual HTML? Why should I as the user have to do the work, exactly?
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RE: I'm still a grumpy cat: a final plea to Alex
Fair enough on the 'how' part, because I knew it wasn't as simple as it is in any other environment. Half the problem, though, is the overcomplexity of the design which is why you have the chains of complexity that you do.
I'm not denying that this community is going to find issues if there are issues to be found, because we're mostly all programmers and stuff and we battle test stuff as part of our daily grind.
But I'm not convinced it's just coding issues; I think there are very real and practical design issues at work. I cannot, for example, imagine any circumstance why I should have to manually work around escaping
<filename>
a la<filename>.dmg
. It's not valid HTML but yet I as the user am being expected to work around what feels like a design limitation in the application. But I am given to understand this is intentional behaviour? It's a breeding ground for XSS. I'm almost afraid to try some of the more esoteric examples from https://www.owasp.org/index.php/Cross-site_Scripting_(XSS) and I've seen some interesting ones over the years that do strange things like munging null bytes into tags because some browsers will accept i_mg where _ is a 0x00 byte... -
RE: Links not taking users off to a new tab
Firstly, I'd move the first half the page off the page. Username/name/email/password/avatar/profile/about me/location/website are not things that I consider preferences. They are part of my profile and/or account, but they're not my preferences as such.
Preferences to me means 'things that shape my experience' not 'things that are about me', if that makes sense.
The stuff about emails... I'm not sure whether I'd personally put that on another page or not, or break it into a section of 'notifications' in general, where the first part is 'how I want to be notified', the second part would be 'what users want to be notified about', and have the 'other' stuff left as the only "real" preferences. But I'm going on what I've seen in the other forum software where everything seems to be kind of where you expect it to be, with sub pages breaking down the different kinds of things. Experience also suggests that it becomes easier for plugin authors to put relevant settings together better.
@dfcowell It's not so much a wall of text. It's the fact that they all blur together because there's nothing visually distinct about them. Consider my OP... there were paragraph breaks. Imagine I didn't have paragraph breaks and it was one huge dense block of text. You'd have a much harder time making sense of it. It's like UI snowblindness.
Because there's not just those options together - you have most of a screenful of options that are pretty closely packed together (and lots of whitespace everywhere else except between options where it might be useful)
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Styling mixup with HTML and Markdown
I use
<small>
for my Filed Under shenanigans barring a properly mandated standard (of which the good thing... oh you heard that one already? Good. No need for a link.)Using
*
or backtick (how does one use backtick to inline a single backtick?) breaks the small tag and reverts to normal size.<small>Some text *with feeling*, how'd I do?</small>
Some text with feeling, how'd I do?
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RE: Selecting a seat with Qantas
I just hope that my bank does it sanely...
Filed under: I used to work in a bank. It was scary. When said bank collapsed, the only surprise for me was 'it took this long?'
Filed separately under: going with
*
or inline code formatting breaks the<small>
tag. -
RE: Links not taking users off to a new tab
When items are grouped logically and sanely, no, it's not a problem. But a bunch of stuff jumbled together where it's practically a wall of text... that's not smart. I'm also bemused that this software considers email and password to be preferences. Chalk another up to the WTFometer.
@ChaosTheEternal Of course, silly me, I forgot that we were using a forum software that manages to rival even the other open source monstrosities for questionable UI design. Seriously.
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RE: Links not taking users off to a new tab
That's nice for you. The fact it's buried in a list of other, seemingly unrelated, checkboxes means I didn't find it when I looked the first time, and had to actively go through and read every item.
Would it not be a logical thing to default that to on?
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Links not taking users off to a new tab
OK, this is something that has been talked about a lot at SMF in the past. By default, SMF pushes all links into a new tab, regardless of whether the user wants it or not.
Here, links off-site are not pushed into an external tab, meaning users that don't know about right click and push to new tab, or middle clicking, are pushed off-site every link. There are a lot of users that aren't technical out there.
Also, I can't wait to see what happens when you have real users coming along that want to block right click. The interesting fact (and possibly TRWTF) is that for once it actually makes some sense to block right clicks. Not a lot, just less insane than it is on normal websites. (For those wondering, disabling right click protects your content from being copied. Honestly. It's tragic having to dispel this myth perhaps once or twice a month.)
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RE: I'm still a grumpy cat: a final plea to Alex
That's not what I'm seeing. (EDIT: You implemented fraud prevention measures, I'm almost impressed. I would not take it as support that people only read the first thing as a unilateral behaviour, more that most people here don't really want to digest too much smugness about how wrong and meaningless their lives are)
Oh, and if we're doing the e-peen thing, there is one forum I've clocked up nearly 60,000 posts on over the last 5 years, quantity really doesn't prove anything, though I have an interesting story to tell out of that, too.
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RE: Wrong post number in progress bar with End key
Try tapping the top of the browser window to jump to top, I would expect it to replicate the behaviour, though I have no idea how badly this will break in Discourse but ?!of course it's the browser doing it wrong!?
If you were Steve Jobs, I'd have let the Reality Distortion Field effect go, but you're not.
Filed under: we still don't have sarcasm tags, I'm improvising with proper syntax and everything.
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RE: Front-page Comments Idea
Of course it would work in Windows, should anyone be so inclined, because Windows treats it like a wireless mouse, just as Windows considers the Apple touchpad as a mouse even though it's wired up differently.
Boot Camp is a wonderful thing.
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RE: I'm still a grumpy cat: a final plea to Alex
I'm really not sure I agree. Apologies for wall of words but that's just my style.
@blakeyrat was - even in his own words - not so much opposed to the upheaval from a paradigm shift, but because of how buggy things are, and he's possibly right that if you step back on the infiniscroll bandwagon a number of issues resolve themselves.
His objection is bugginess. Morbs seemed to be in the same camp. @Lorne_Kates's objections are two-fold. He's peeved about the bugginess especially after Alex was saying 'give it a few weeks' while Jeff was saying 'give it a few months'... My impression was that this was 0.9.x, i.e. late beta before the blessed 1.0 release. In which case, there should not be the number of bugs that there are. For a platform whose biggest selling point (infiniscroll) to be as fragile as we found it to be... it's a story worthy of TDWTF in its own right.
Then there's the XSS issues. On the one hand, it's because you seem to have this truly insane idea of how to handle user content (to allow some mutated hybrid of Markdown, bbcode and unsanitised HTML)... even if you were Markdown only I could sympathise with 'this is the one true content system' but it's not. Don't even get me started on the inconsistency of
[linktext](linkurl)
versus[linktext][1]
and a footnote type deal.OTOH, it also smells like newbiness. Yes, I'm sure any of us who've ever done a web app have, at some time or other, had XSS issues. We sympathise, especially if you're rolling a lot of stuff yourself. But for a 0.9.x level app to have as many as this crowd found - it just feels so fragile. Bear in mind that this community is full of people who do this stuff all the time, it's not like we'll be fooled with a switch 'n' bait like a magician might be able to pull for a non-technical audience. It's not even like Discourse sanitises non-valid HTML tags as we saw with the
<filename>.dmg
stuff. (And why I had to inline that as code because having to type an entity is backwards. This is 2014, I should NOT have to be doing that kind of sanitisation on the client side.)And this is where I guess the issues converge. Change is one thing. I don't necessarily agree with Lorne about getting the forum as integrated as CS was - at least not initially. I understand the desire to be as 'unchangeful as possible', and when you're exchanging one tool for another tool (e.g. phpBB for MyBB or for SMF or for XenForo) there is going to be a learning curve.
The problem is there is so much stuff Discourse does that literally no other current forum software does, that even I have trouble figuring out what's going on. Bear in mind, I used to be on the SMF development team. I've also played with phpBB, MyBB, IPB, vBulletin, XenForo to varying degrees (including building plugins for things), and I can move between them - and also between specific modified versions of them - with relative ease.
Coming here is literally a new world. I'm forced to mentally curtail years and years of experience, of learned behaviour. I'm resistant to it like anyone would be, but Discourse is the only major software that does infiniscroll as a primary control vehicle, Markdown (with all kinds of exciting variations including having to escape my own entities) as a primary entry method.
I'm not averse to JS wizardry, written enough JS in my time. I am averse to it when it creates a buggy mess that's a ridiculous CPU hog. I am averse to it when it makes me operate in a way that no other site does. I don't know any of the other DC installations, this is my first and so far only DC habitat. And it operates so differently from every other site... even Facebook's infiniscroll works as I would expect! That's a condemnation I have never uttered before, that I actively feel Facebook - for all its failures in the UI department - does infiniscroll better than DC does. But I will admit that the usage pattern is deliberately and intentionally different; like other infiniscroll patterns it promotes newest first - something that DC doesn't, and necessarily shouldn't.
I don't see the problem as JS. I don't think the other folks do either. Trying to change the world more than one step at a time is a problem. Trying to change peoples' paradigms is always going to be problematic - and when you're the only one doing it, you're the outlier. You're in a position of being a pariah - in front of the worst possible audience for it, and we will call you out on it.
I am getting more used to Discourse. But it is significantly more effort to do any of the tasks I have been doing in every other forum software for years.
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RE: Today is Friday, the 13th
DIscourse. DISCOURSE. DISCOURSE.
Filed under: that was close enough, right?
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RE: Finding XSS is fun and all...
Oh you can XSS stuff from the client side too because you're never going to add it a tag at a time due to the amount of reflows that would generate, so you'll be adding it in chunks and invariably that means innerHTML... which is XSSable.
Personally I'd rather sanitise everything and then only allow the sane stuff back afterwards before realising that in most cases, raw HTML isn't even needed in user content. This isn't like some new problem that has to be solved.
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RE: I'm still a grumpy cat: a final plea to Alex
Do we really have to go through this again? Has it not already been done to death enough that you want me to repeat it all, only for a smug dismissal (again) that my opinions are Luddite ones? Because I'd rather not waste both our time on the matter.
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RE: How about this? Sidebar audio src="http://soundjax.com/reddo/ 64951%5Ecddyhorn.mp3" controls autoplay></audio>
That seems drastic and smart at the same time. However I would expect it to also become a TDWTF story despite the ingenuity involved.
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RE: I'm still a grumpy cat: a final plea to Alex
No, he genuinely doesn't understand the backlash, not even against infiniscrolling.
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RE: Selecting a seat with Qantas
Except TYPE is deprecated. Now you're supposed to use ENGINE.
Filed under: yes, I use MySQL. plz don't hate