OK. I'm already conviced. From now on, I believe that the number of atoms in the universe is even.
![](/uploads/default/978/c41499459744857d.png)
Posts made by ammoQ
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RE: A code or not a code?
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RE: Another security question WTF
@shadowman said:
How would moving change the town you were born in?
Because the same town can have different names in different languages. For example, I am born in Vienna. (6 letters, ok). In German, the city's name is "Wien" (4 letters, bad luck). In Polish, it's "Wieden". etc.
So all you have to do is move to a country where the (local) name of your place of birth is acceptable by the standards for security questions. Can't be that hard.
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RE: A code or not a code?
@asuffield said:
Ironically enough, there's one theory about the formation of the universe that, if validated, could prove that the number of atoms in the universe is always even (it's something about matched pairs - no particular evidence for it, but no particular evidence against it either).
What about fusion and fission? Hard to believe that this happens in pairs, too.
In general, the term you're looking for is "unverifiable" rather than "de-facto unprovable" (which is something of a contradiction in terms).
ESL ;-)
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RE: Looking for advice from someone thats been around the block.
I'm afraid you won't get it much better unless you are very lucky. At least if you are looking for a job at another small company. On the other hand, as a beginner, it's probably not a bad idea to look for another job after 18 months, so you can learn more.
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RE: Do you know what I miss?
@jetcitywoman said:
Yep, my company has that capability also but fortunately for me they haven't done that to me. It would really send me over the deep end. I consider myself a responsible, experienced IT person who tries to maintain proper security on my computers even though I'm not in the group who maintains the machines. So it freaks me out that they silently install gawd knows what on my laptop every week. It creeps me out when I see the Carbon Copy icon on my taskbar sometimes but most of the time it's not running. And I SWEAR that the machine's performance is degrading because of all the updates, patches and who-knows-what-else they've installed on it over the last year.
The really freaky thing is that although the IT department has not been outsourced yet, all of those updates, patches and who-knows-what-else are installed from a server located in Russia.
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RE: A code or not a code?
@asuffield said:
This is complete nonsense. Godel's incompleteness theorems are about specific mathematical systems, and no proof has been offered that the universe is one of these systems (and there is considerable reason in quantum theory to think that it is not). Furthermore, the things which cannot be proven under the incompleteness theorems are, for the most part, not particularly interesting things. They mostly have to do with whether or not the system itself is a sane system. Even if the universe were one of these systems, there is no reason to think that the statements in question should be undecidable.
This kind of pseudo-mathematical gibberish will only convince people who have no comprehension of the subject. They might as well say "Every partially ordered set, in which every chain has an upper bound, contains at least one maximal element, therefore God is a lettuce".
The universe is so full of de-facto unprovable truths that Godel's theorem is completely unnecessary to make irrelevant statements. For example, (ignoring the uncertainity principle from quantum mechanics), one of the following statements is true but de-facto unprovable:
The total number of atoms in the universe, as of July 31., 1822, 17:39:15 GMT, was even.
The total number of atoms in the universe, as of July 31., 1822, 17:39:15 GMT, was odd.
Or, just a highly likely but nor 100% sure guess:
The total number of atoms in the universe, as of July 31., 1822, 17:39:15 GMT, was not prime.
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RE: A code or not a code?
@tster said:
useful codes are found everywhere in nature. The code of the day/night and season cycles drives plant growth. Organs in your body use a "code" to communicate to tell each other when to function. The code medium might be the blood stream and hormones, or it might be the nervous system sending codes to the muscles to constrict. Ants do not possess a conscious mind, yet they use scents to communicate to each other where food is.
I completely aggree with tster here. Codes are nearly as old and common as life itself.
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RE: Object programmation is a powerful concept
@phelyan said:
@merreborn said:
There's a single quote in this thread on webmaster-talk that was just too priceless not to share:
"Object programmation is a powerful concept, but totally different of sequential programmation."
"Objektprogrammierung ist ein leistungsstarkes Konzept, aber komplett anders als Sequenzprogrammierung."
It kind of makes sense in German... that's scary.
That's only because you incorrectly translated "prgrammation" to "Programmierung" an corrected gramar on the fly.
A truely correct translation might read like this:
"Objektprogrammation ist ein leistungsfähiges Konzept, aber komplett anders von sequentieller Programmation."
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RE: WTF Spam!
@phelyan said:
@Zecc said:
6. Fake currencies, such as Euros and US dollars, prices would match competition.
For me, that's the funniest. I wonder how much a US dollar costs...
If you pay in Pound sterling, not a lot...
Adjusting an old joke about Rusian Rubles:
Q: What is the exchange rate between dollar, pound, and euro?
A: One pound of dollars equals one euro. -
RE: WTF Spam!
@pscs said:
.
5. We also offer gay-slaves for sale, we offer only such service on the NET,
you can choose the one you like, then get straight to business.Am I the only one to consider that part funny?
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RE: Not a wooden table
When you think about it, Power Point is more suiteable than Word. Not that it really matters ;-)
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RE: Getting started with Oracle: 2 problems
@DaveSemm said:
After working with MS SQL Server, I can't see how anyone would want to use Oracle.
You might want to join the IHOC, in case you haven't already done so.
Anyway, Oracle can do a lot of things MS SQL Server can't. Like running on a unix box ;-) Oracle's PL/SQL is way better than T-SQL (important for people who write lots of stored procedures).
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RE: Feed TSA officers pie for Thanksgiving
Foot and mouth desease is proably more of an issue than BSE, more contagious and a recurring problem in Europe.
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RE: #pragma warning disabling...
@asuffield said:
That one's a historical blunder - it's impossible for intptr_t and ptrdiff_t to be different types, so there's no particularly good reason for intptr_t to exist, except as an observation that "ptrdiff_t" is not a very good name.
Is there a guarantee that any two pointers a,b can be substracted? I imagine a non-flat memory model with discrete memory segments where two pointers can point to locations in different memory segments so substracting them is not possible in any useful manner. So let's for a moment assume that trying to do so results in an exception (sigsev or whatever) rather than a meaningless result.
In such a memory model, sizeof(ptrdiff_t) could be smaller than sizeof(intptr_t).
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RE: Getting started with Oracle: 2 problems
@DaveSemm said:
I need to access an Oracle database from a VB.Net application. I've managed to do it (after 3 days effort) without a problem on my development PC, talking to an Oracle XE database that I set up on a virtual PC (named daveserver2003) on the same PC. I installed the Instant Oracle drivers (instantclient-basic-win32-10.2.0.3-20061115) and ODBC drivers (instantclient-odbc-win32-10.2.0.3-20061115) into C:\Oracle, and ran the install app. I created environment variable TNS_ADMIN = C:\Oracle, and added C:\Oracle to the Path variable. And I created a tnsnames.ora file & put it in C:\Oracle. The contents of the file are:
XE =
(DESCRIPTION =
(ADDRESS = (PROTOCOL = TCP)(HOST = daveserver2003)(PORT = 1521))
(CONNECT_DATA =
(SERVER = DEDICATED)
(SERVICE_NAME = XE)
)
)I created an ODBC data source, and tested it by importing a table from the Oracle database to a SQL Server database using the ODBC connection.
In my VB.Net application I use System.data.oracleclient to do the database connection. This works perfectly on my development PC. When I deploy the app to any other PC, and follow exactly the same procedure to set up the drivers, I get the error “ORA-12154: TNS:could not resolve the connect identifier specified.” I am able to use the ODBC connection on these PC’s to connect e.g. MS Access to the database. It’s just my VB.Net app that can’t connect unless it is running on my development PC.
(I have now also tried the System.Data.ODBC library & it also works fine on my debvelopment PC & nowhere else...)
Any suggestion are greatly appreciated.
My 2nd problem has to do with the Oracle drivers themselves: I set them up without any problems on several PC's, running WinXP and Win2003 with a variety of service packs. But I cannot get them to work on another set of PC's, with similar spec.s. On these, when I try to create an ODBC Data Source, as soon as I hit Finish, it says "The setup routines for the Oracle in instantclient10_2 ODBC driver could not be loaded due to system error code 126." and after that: "Could not load the setup or translator library". I swear I'm doing everything exactly the same on all the PC's.
I have Googled for help for days, but no one can explain why it works on some PC's but not others.
Any help here is also greatly appreciated.
1st problem: Check the tnsnames.ora on the other PC. The file tnsnames.ora is normally located at %ORACLE_HOME%\network\admin; e.g. \C:\oracle\product\10.2.0\client_1\NETWORK\ADMIN on my machine.Place it there instead of tinkering with TNS_ADMIN.
2nd problem: check this out
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RE: #pragma warning disabling...
@purge said:
Because casting can be very expensive, especially when casting to
unsigned int
. Better to risk the loss of data than have to match the cast result against <font size="-1">4,294,967,295 possible values of unsigned int.
</font>I guess the system runs out of memory long before there are more than 4294967295 entries in m_propList.<font face="Lucida Console" size="2"></font>
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RE: Interview Cruelty: CPound Would be Proud
@milmin said:
Like the difference between @@IDENTITY and scope_identity() hey ammoQ
???
<trollmode>btw, real men use sequences</trollmode>
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RE: CD Key WTF
@skippy said:
I think his point is that although you can't extract "infinite" information from the mosaic, you do know that there are only 32 possibly values underneath it, and each letter/number will result in a different, but constant mosaic. Knowing that, it's pretty easy to write something to give you the most likely values that are underneath (e.g. "L" will be lighter than "E", which is lighter than "8", etc). Then it's a matter of guessing and testing a few values. Still more work that anyone is willing to bother with, considering there are already a million cracks out there.
Given the uneven lighting of the picture, and the fact that the numbers and letters are pseudo-randomly choosen (so there is no dictionary-based attack possible), it might be quite a challenge to reverse the filter.
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RE: A = a;
@Sunstorm said:
Why?! Would you put that code in your program if you did not want it to corrupt, ever?
Consider you were to write an AI program (the turing-test-capable kind of AI, that is). You would want it to make it's own decisions, roughly based on the input it is given. Although you could hard-code well-behaviour, it would limit the capabilities of the program. My take on the question is: If god wants us to be intelligent, he must make it possible for us to sin. Whatever "sin" means, since most descriptions of "sin" were IMO at least 99% man-made.
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RE: Help arguing Flat vs RDBMS
@dhromed said:
Or, more generically, whether you need to identify an address in some way, as fr example, the billing address.
And if you do, and choose the normal form, then you need another table listing "address types" which are FK'd by the address table, so that you can tell what sort of address you have -- which wiuld require an interface change for something other than a list of any length.
A step further; it depends on how far you want to go in solving this problem.
Finally, it depends on whether you actually have a problem, which, currently, I'm not so sure of.
cursive
As you can see in my proposal, there already is a column ADDRESSTYPE in the table CUSTOMER_ADDRESS (which relates customers to addresses, but doesn't contain the actuall adress); it belongs there, since the same address is (in many cases) both billing address and delivery address, but you probably don't want two identical (except address type) copies of the address in the address table.
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RE: Help arguing Flat vs RDBMS
@The General said:
I can't comment on the [extra_]special_codes, but an advantage of denormalising the address details is that each distinct address only need be stored once. Hopefully, this way, it's much harder to end up with e.g. "22 Foo Ct, Barville", "22 Foo Court, Barville", "22 Foo Court, Bazville" etc, which really all refer to the same physical address (the last one being a typo - see below).
I think it's beyond dispute that there should be a table for address details; especially, since in many cases, the same adress is used for general contact, billing and delivery. The more diffcult question is rather
- do we have three columns ADDRESS_ID_GENERAL, ADDRESS_ID_BILLING, ADDRESS_ID_DELIVERY in the customers table or
- do we build a m:n relationship between customers and addresses, using a CUSTOMER_ADDRESS table (with the columns CUSTOMER_ID, ADDRESS_ID, ADDRESSTYPE)
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RE: GOS Doesn't Like Me
@stratos said:
For as far as i know, print screen works pretty well since ~2000ish, at least since gnome 2.0. Before that people mostly used import from imagemagick or screenshot utility of the gimp. Although i can't say about other WM's and DE's because i don't really use anything besides gnome.
The Prt Scr button works in KDE just as well. (no surprise)
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RE: Help arguing Flat vs RDBMS
@asuffield said:
You too are operating under the assumption that the data model has some properties that are not in evidence (and frankly, I cannot imagine why anybody would want a data model that had an unlimited number of addresses per person).
Been there, seen that. One of the projects I'm currently maintaining allows for that. Main reason: A user-maintainable table "address type", though eventually there are only a few address types in use.
@EpsilonCool said:
OK, you decide to add another address to your record. This will involve
- Schema changes
- Code changes
- Testing
- Documentation
- User interface changing.
If you used a normalised structure then it would be an trivial data change.
It's only trivial if the new address has no special meaning for the program. If it has a special meaning, which is likely, you need 2.-5. anyway.
@CodeWhisperer said:
@asuffield said:
We have no reason to think that these fields
are of comparable types or have any kind of structure like this. You're
just making up a data structure that you think might exist and assuming
that is what is happening hereI assumed it was a simple (var)char field holding a single char, for purposes of illustration and in the absence of further information. When the OP tells me i'm wrong, I'll change my hypothesis. Having seen this a dozen times, I don't feel all that bad making the assumption.
@asuffield said:
For all we know, special_code1 is the weight of the apples and special_code2 is their tax rate, in which case such a query would be meaningless. In the absence of any evidence to the contrary, you always assume that no such requirement exists
If that's what the columns do indeed mean, then they're bigger idiots than I imagined and that table really needs to be fixed.
Less unlikely than you think. In one of my projects, there are database columns named statistic_code_1..statistic_code_10 (or something like that). Our customers use them to group the products in the product database by arbitrary criteria. Those columns are only used in a statistical report and have no meaning for the rest of the program. In fact, I don't even know how they actually use them. Anyway, the list of values is different for each column. (The list of values is of course user maintainable, but for all I know, they do not use the same values for different columns)
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RE: A = a;
Girl: "I love you!"
Boy: "This is an utterly meaningless statement, as it is unfalsifiable."
Girl: "You bastard!! I'll leave you forever!"
Boy: "This isn't a better statement either, since it takes an infinite amount of time to verify the 'forever' part."
Girl: "Fine, have it your way then. I go." (goes through the door and shuts it loudely)
Boy: "Finally, a meaningfull statement. Let's have a look... yes, she is gone. Q.E.D."
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RE: A = a;
@asuffield said:
Or maybe the Shinto crowd were right all along - the gods are mountains and trees, and they express their presence by being mountains and trees.
Unlikely. Mountains and trees have not been observed yet. I don't believe they exist, and even if they did, there could always be a natural cause.
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RE: A = a;
@plazmo said:
Is it obvious to you are right about your religion being in the 1% that was created by god? Well, why wouldn't you be right, its your beliefs and your always right about what you believe in. Doesnt matter that there are millions others with the exact same faith in god as you but they get to go to hell because the god they learned and developed their lives around was not right.
The idea that faithfull people believing in the "wrong" god go to hell is, IMO, part of the 99% manmade stuff in every religion. It serves as an excuse to go to war.
Its a shame god doesn't give us signs about his presence any more like
he did back in biblical times.Maybe he gives us signs be we are too blind to see them?
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RE: A = a;
@Kilrah said:
@pitchingchris said:
I do not believe in gods but in God (singular).
Which precisely is the proof that religions are just a big nonsense, "God" giving different guidelines for the different religions.
So now, either there is only one God, which would mean all religions that fight each other are doing it for the same God who's having a lot of fun directing them against each other and watching them on the battlefield, or there are different Gods - which would also be contradictory as each religion is fighting to say "mine's the right one". If there's more than one, this should already fall apart as the other ones would supposedly not exist, thus all their believers would be in the void...
It's obvious that religions are at least 99% man made. Even if there is just one god, who tells the same instructions to all men, people in different regions of the world will interpret it differently, and those who want to fight will find a reason to fight. Hell, even christians of different churches kill each other sometimes, muslims of different denominations kill each other. Definitely not because God or Allah told them so. But then, if God or gods exist, humans stupidity probably wont make them go away.
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RE: A = a;
@DaveK said:
@Heron said:
Same with God. Unless you can prove
He does not exist anywhere in the universe (which, again, would require
observing the entire universe simultaneously), you cannot say with
scientific certainty that God does not exist.Not so, it's easier than that. Since God is meant to be omnipresent, you only have to show that there is one place in the universe, however miniscule, where he does not exist.
True, but even if you could prove that, it would only prove that all possibly existing Gods are not omnipresent.
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RE: Stolen...
@holli said:
from the shark tank but too good for not to share :)
This company migrates to Active Directory and decides to use it as a
centralized repository for user information -- such as the site where
the user works, address, phone numbers, manager's name. "Periodically,
we send out reminders to the users to check their personal information
and update it if necessary to make sure it remains current," says a
pilot fish on the scene. "I sent one such e-mail with the standard
closing telling users to contact me if they have any difficulties or
questions. I received a reply from one of my users who simply asked,
'Who's my manager?'"Perfectly possible. For example, people can have an informal leader (i.e. the most experienced coworker), an official team leader, a project leader and a head of the department; all of them could be described as the "manager" but the employee might not know which one to put into the AD.
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RE: ItHasToBeOneWord
In German, it's also "Authentifikation", so if I should ever usify that wordification, just replacify it in your mind with "authentication" and don't startify a whole threadification around it ;-)
BTW, I think that the closeness, both in pronouncation and meaning, to "identify / identification", increases the chance that ESL people use that word.
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RE: A = a;
@asuffield said:
@ammoQ said:
If religion was just about telling "there is a god", I would call it meaningless, too. But most religions tell us "there is a god, and you should do this and avoid that".
This thread doesn't.
Actually, it does. It tells us "Thou shalt write posts about IT and avoid discussions about religion, for trolls and flames await those who do not obey"
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RE: A = a;
@asuffield said:
Which reminds me, this is all religious crack anyway. Science can both prove and disprove statements. A statement which cannot be disproven is deemed "unfalsifiable", which carries the implication of "this statement is malformed; go back and write it properly in a way that can be disproven". An unfalsifiable statement is not scientific, and furthermore is a pointless waste of space that can never carry any useful information. An unfalsifiable statement can either be corrected into a meaningful falsifiable statement, or it is nonsense, depending on whether or not the author has any real point to make.
"There is an invisible pink unicorn" is unfalsifiable and meaningless - who could possibly care whether this statement is true?
If religion was just about telling "there is a god", I would call it meaningless, too. But most religions tell us "there is a god, and you should do this and avoid that". Religion offers reasons. Reasons to live, reasons to be good to others. Unfortunately, in many cases, also reasons to hurt other people. A completely material world is IMO inherently meaningless. In such a world, it can't be wrong to believe in god, since "right" and "wrong" have no meaning at all in a completely material world. It might be "wrong" in the sense that it doesn't match the actual facts, but that doesn't matter. There is nothing to gain, nothing to lose. Religion is a waste of time and energy? Maybe, but what isn't? What does "waste" mean anyway in a completely material world?
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RE: A = a;
@The Vicar said:
Jesus, though, according to his own followers, was human. Humans are completely material. Therefore, Jesus had no non-material parts. The material parts of him are subject to ordinary entropy, which means he is dead. (You can preserve a human's form for a millennium or so, but it requires internal dessication, and the various bits which keep you alive stop working.)I think it's not too difficult to imagine a humanoid creature that lives for 2000 years or more. It would just have to be a little bit different than normal humans, and it doesn't seem too unreasonable to expect a god to be able to make those little corrections.Anyway, it's a pointless discussion, since beliefers don't think that Jesus is still a human in flesh and blood hidden somewhere in a cave.Eventually, we would learn the functions of every part of a computer, and have no functions left which a soul could oversee or influence. We would then have to conclude that computers either have no soul or that the soul has no part in actually making the computer work. We still wouldn't know [i]how[/i] a CPU works (or at least, this ignorance would be possible), or how to make a CPU, but we would still know that the computer is completely material.And still, since we do not know how the "CPU" part works, it's just as possible that the CPU is just a proxy that uses some kind of wireless network to communicate with the real CPU, which could be located somewhere else. Let's assume such a setup. Is this remote computer a "soul"? Hard to tell, without a proper definition of "soul". But it definitely isn't part of the physical computer we analyze.
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RE: A = a;
@The Vicar said:
Fictional people don't count.Most historicans would argue that Jesus is not fictional.
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RE: It has finally happened (online banking security question content)
@Pap said:
@MasterPlanSoftware said:
I would say it would be safer to say your first wedding's rehearsal dinner.
And now you're suggesting that the person's [most likely] current marriage will be a total failure. How rude!
Although, the statistics are on your side.
In the city I live in, it's a relatively safe bet. The divorce rate is 63%.
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RE: C++ - what's the default method of opening a file passed to main via *argv[]?
@asuffield said:
When coding in narrative form, switching between these various styles can make the text flow more smoothly. Hence, you always want a language to let you mix them.
True, but you wouldn't want to write narrative code in a language with C-like syntax anyway. Cobol is much better suited for the job. Though Cobol programs probably tell sad stories...
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RE: C++ - what's the default method of opening a file passed to main via *argv[]?
@segmentation fault said:
not be easy to recognize what? im sorry im not quite sure what you wanted to say.
Recognize that the three loops are effectively "for" loops from 1 .. 10.
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RE: C++ - what's the default method of opening a file passed to main via *argv[]?
@segmentation fault said:
@ammoQ said:
Of course one should create a reusable software module, e.g. a library, whenever that is reasonably possible.
Well what I am saying is that if youre trying to solve the same problem, reuse the code. If you cant, its a different problem.
I'll try to explain my point of view with an example of bad code:
void inconsistent(void) {
int i;/* Part 1 */
for (i=1; i<=10; i++) {
doSomething(i);
}/* Part 2 */
i=0;
while(11> ++i) {
doSomethingElse(i);
}/* Part 3 */
i -= i;
do {
doYetanotherThing(++i);
} while (i<10);
}
Those three parts do basically the same - a loop from 1..10 - but in three different styles, so it would not be easy to recognize if it wasn't an obviously artifical example in a WTF thread. -
RE: Is it too late to make money off of old people who are confused by the internet?
A few weeks ago, CPound was chosen "favourite troll" with a great majority, leaving TubeRodent far behind in popularity; so I really wonder why anyone takes his posts for real anymore.
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RE: Password WTF
Maybe the system only stores the 8 leftmost characters of the password anyway, so longer password create a false impression of security, while it might be actually easier to guess since many people add the hard-to-guess characters at the end of the password. (e.g. "ThatWasEasy53%")
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RE: C++ - what's the default method of opening a file passed to main via *argv[]?
@segmentation fault said:
@ammoQ said:
If none of the available solutions has significant advantages over the other, at least in some situations, it would be rather stupid to mix them just because.
BTW, copy-paste is still by far better than "exploring as many different approaches to the same problem as possible within the same project".
remind me as to why are you copy and pasting as a solution to the same problem instead of reusing the code by creating a common library?
Of course one should create a reusable software module, e.g. a library, whenever that is reasonably possible.
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RE: C++ - what's the default method of opening a file passed to main via *argv[]?
@segmentation fault said:
@ammoQ said:
Having multiple solutions to a problem is generally undesirable, because most likely every programmer (or team) will pick one and use it for all instances of the problem, thus forgetting that the other solution even exists.
we call those bad developers who like to copy and paste. if the problem is the developers, don't blame the language.
If none of the available solutions has significant advantages over the other, at least in some situations, it would be rather stupid to mix them just because.
BTW, copy-paste is still by far better than "exploring as many different approaches to the same problem as possible within the same project".
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RE: Netstat -b on Windows
Is that PROCMON11.SYS.gz thingy usefull for anyone here? If not, I'd rather have it removed, because of copyright and stuff.
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RE: Smoke alarms save lives!
@Jetts said:
But, we are just getting to the time of year where there is ice on the road for the first time, and I know exactly what will happen. The very first day there is actual ice or snow on the roads, there will be 10X the accidents and cars in the ditch. After a few days everyone will settle back into their normal driving habits and it will be normal again.
Why, though, is that first snowfall so hard for people? It's not like it doesn't do this EVERY YEAR!
And I thought it's only here like that. In Vienna, every year when there is snow for the first time. traffic breaks down, even if it's just 2mm that melt away in seconds. Seems like a self-fullfilling prophecy to me.
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RE: You have to try to do nothing with so much code.
Since this is C, just write a long string literal as a meaningless expression.
#include <stdio.h>
int nix() {
"foobarfoobar ...insert lots of text here... foobarfoobarfoobar";
} -
RE: Creating a WTF
@nickf said:
Yeah, it was reading about how RoR works that sort of inspired me. I haven't really explored it fully, and please feel free to correct me, but from what I read Ruby doesn't sound as fully featured or powerful as PHP, which is what I know, so I decided to stick to PHP.
I haven't done much in Ruby yet (unfortunately, not part of my current job) but from what I know, it's by far a better designed language than PHP will ever be. Of course it's perfectly possible that PHP currently offers more bindings to usefull libs, but I doubt even that.
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RE: HTML Table WTF
@stratos said:
@ammoQ said:
@dhromed said:
@Sunstorm said:
I'd still take an elegant solution that works in only Firefox/IE7/Opera. I have yet to see someone beat the flexibility and the power of the table tag.
Tables are popular because they're inflexible. A table layout adapts to nothing and is hard to change.
It's relatively easy to make a layout with tables that uses the whole width of the browser window - or a certain percentage of that, with fixed-size borders and a variable-sized content in the middle.
For example (warning: shameless self-advertizing) http://www.itek.at/alt/ganzneu-eng.html
Doing the same with CSS, in a way that works with all browsers, is not exactly easy.
cough
step1: put a div in your body.
A div is automatically has a 100% width. ( although that's not the same as CSS width: 100% )step2: margin: 0 20px;
The div now has 20px margin on either side.step3: border: solid 5px red
The div now has a fixed size border.
For instance look at my webpage http://www.stratos-online.nl and if you want to know what flexible means, look at it in FF and look at the alternative style sheet that i'm working on.-edit-
Yes there are things that are difficult to do in CSS because of lacking support or because it's difficult to express directly what you want in CSS. Mostly this happens when you start to talk about vertical aligning because thats implemented a bit tricky and in some cases simply isn't possible. However 95% of all designs can still be implemented without abuse of tables.
Sorry, I wasn't precise enough. I was thinking of custom borders, with rounded corners, pseudo-3d-textures and stuff.
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RE: HTML Table WTF
@dhromed said:
@Sunstorm said:
I'd still take an elegant solution that works in only Firefox/IE7/Opera. I have yet to see someone beat the flexibility and the power of the table tag.
Tables are popular because they're inflexible. A table layout adapts to nothing and is hard to change.
It's relatively easy to make a layout with tables that uses the whole width of the browser window - or a certain percentage of that, with fixed-size borders and a variable-sized content in the middle.
For example (warning: shameless self-advertizing) http://www.itek.at/alt/ganzneu-eng.html
Doing the same with CSS, in a way that works with all browsers, is not exactly easy.