Spectate's brother



  • This guy is another crazy.  I heard him on the radio, and he sounded just like our bearded friend.  Should we introduce him to his long lost brother?

    He claims that you are not required to file income taxes because it could be used as evidence, and is thus protected under the 5th amendment. 

    • <font size="3">There
      is no statute that makes a person liable or responsible to pay the
      income tax. Individuals only become liable to pay the income tax when
      they voluntarily file a tax return, or when the IRS follows its
      assessment procedures as outlined in the Internal Revenue Code.</font>

    • <font size="3">If
      there were a statute which clearly and unequivocally required the
      filing of tax returns, such a statute would be unconstitutional under
      the present income tax system to the extent that it would require
      individuals to give the government information which could be used
      against them criminally. </font>

     

    For those of you not in the US, today is the day that we have to file our taxes for federal, most states, and most localities.  The 5th amendment says (in many more words) that noone shall be required to testify against themselves in a court of law.  



  • Technically he has a point, the IRS claims income taxes are "voluntary" but that's pretty much nonsense.  However, the 5th amendment wouldn't protect you from filing income taxes.  In fact, you have to file income taxes on illegally-obtained income.  So if you make $200k selling drugs, you have to report it, but you don't have to report how you got it.



  • @morbiuswilters said:

    So if you make $200k selling drugs, you have to report it, but you don't have to report how you got it.

    And it's in your best interest to do so. There have been a few that have been taken down for "tax evasion" instead of the crime that the money came from.



  •  Look, i don't mind, let him not file. When the IRS bust him, I won't shed a tear.

     

    The thing is, if you made 200k from selling drugs, as long as you pay taxes on the 200k you are fine. Caz government is happy to get money :)

    5th amendment applies only when you are in court testifying. You must tell the truth and thus if asked about something criminal you did you are legaly forced to tell it. The 5th amendment states that you can say nothing legaly or that if you do say something against your will it cannot be used against you. Otherwise anyone who is on the witness stand can be asked "have you done anything criminal this year?" they must answer, followed by spending time in jail, if they lie and it is proven a lie they go in jail anyways. Thats the point of the law, how you get from that to taxes is a lunatic's job to do.

    Also people don't realize that YOU ALREADY PAID YOUR TAXES. Filing income tax is a way for you to get a refund if you overpaid taxes that year, or possibly pay if you underpaid (which you can't do more than 3 times i think), so income tax is actaully a benefit for most people rather than a loss of money.

    Alright? That guy is nuts.



  • @dlikhten said:

    or possibly pay if you underpaid (which you can't do more than 3 times i think)

    There's no limit. I've owed the IRS for about 5 years now. Last year, it was around $1000. This year, it is $889. They just charge a penalty and interest. But, it's not as bad as a loan would be (at least in my case).



  • @dlikhten said:

    5th amendment applies only when you are in court testifying. You must tell the truth and thus if asked about something criminal you did you are legaly forced to tell it. The 5th amendment states that you can say nothing legaly or that if you do say something against your will it cannot be used against you. Otherwise anyone who is on the witness stand can be asked "have you done anything criminal this year?" they must answer, followed by spending time in jail, if they lie and it is proven a lie they go in jail anyways. Thats the point of the law, how you get from that to taxes is a lunatic's job to do.

    What in God's name are you talking about?  The 5th amendment applies to any interaction with the government.

     

    @dlikhten said:

    Also people don't realize that YOU ALREADY PAID YOUR TAXES. Filing income tax is a way for you to get a refund if you overpaid taxes that year, or possibly pay if you underpaid (which you can't do more than 3 times i think), so income tax is actaully a benefit for most people rather than a loss of money.

    Plenty of people don't have income taxes withheld.  And income tax is not a benefit, it is always a loss of money.  You are better off underpaying and ending up with a small tax bill on April 15 rather than getting a refund, otherwise you loaned your money to the government for free that entire time instead of having it in your possession. 



  • @morbiuswilters said:

    You are better off underpaying and ending up with a small tax bill on April 15 rather than getting a refund, otherwise you loaned your money to the government for free that entire time instead of having it in your possession.

    Some people I know purposefully overpay. They do it because they know they'd spend it if they had it. By sending it to the IRS, there's no way to get to it until tax time. My supervisor always gets back $1,000+ when she files, and she uses it for a vacation. I'd do that, but I need the money each paycheck. The only reason I owed so much recently is because of the 1099-MISC from doing housekeeping for the company. Those were around $5,000 each time. Previously, I owed $100-200 tops. We no longer do the housekeeping, though, so next year it will be back to around $200. We only did 2 months this year before they hired a company that would bill them with Net 30.


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    @AbbydonKrafts said:

    There's no limit. I've owed the IRS for about 5 years now. Last year, it was around $1000. This year, it is $889. They just charge a penalty and interest.
    Is this for the previous tax year alone? How are the IRS taxes collected?

    In the UK the (I believe) equivalent tax (income tax) is collected through your payslip, and if you file[1] and you paid too little last tax year you have the option of paying a lump sum equivalent to the difference, or having the sum deducted from your pay over the next tax year (through a reduced 0% band,) amounting to the difference.

    But unless you've filed late, or it's from previous years and they've just caught you[1], there's no penalty or interest to pay on this amount.

     

    [1] Unless the tax office send you a 'self assessment' to fill in, or you suspect you may end up with tricky financial affairs where you ask them for a 'self assessment', or you think you've overpaid tax, most people don't have to file. However if it turns out you should have filed in previous years due to underpayment, Mr Taxman can go back years and demand you pay back any owed tax. With penalties and interest.



  • @AbbydonKrafts said:

    Some people I know purposefully overpay. They do it because they know they'd spend it if they had it. By sending it to the IRS, there's no way to get to it until tax time. My supervisor always gets back $1,000+ when she files, and she uses it for a vacation.
    That's some pretty hilarious bad financing right there. Using the IRS as a shitty bank that doesn't give interest! What a great idea!



  •  

    @morbiuswilters said:
    Technically he has a point, the IRS claims income taxes are "voluntary" but that's pretty much nonsense. However, the 5th amendment wouldn't protect you from filing income taxes.
    In fact, you have to file income taxes on illegally-obtained income.  So if you make $200k selling drugs, you have to report it, but you don't have to report how you got it.

    The IRS does not claim income taxes are voluntary. In fact, they list that and other arguments as well known tax scams.

    6. Frivolous Arguments. Promoters have been known to make the following outlandish claims: the Sixteenth Amendment concerning congressional power to lay and collect income taxes was never ratified; wages are not income;
    filing a return and paying taxes are merely voluntary; and being required to file Form 1040 violates the Fifth Amendment right against self-incrimination or the Fourth Amendment right to privacy. Don’t believe these or
    other similar claims. These arguments are false and have been thrown out of court. While taxpayers have the right to contest their tax liabilities in court, no one has
    the right to disobey the law.


    I've heard similar arguments to those quoted in the OP's link for years. Generally they're by people like Mel Gibson's character in Conspiracy Theory.
    Although that's a bad example since it turned out they really were after him.


  • @morbiuswilters said:

     

    You are better off underpaying and ending up with a small tax bill on April 15 rather than getting a refund, otherwise you loaned your money to the government for free that entire time instead of having it in your possession. 

    Agreed.  I was a 1099 contractor for part of 2006 and it was nice to have the money at the time.  Luckily, I had a taxpaying job the rest of the year and the 1099 just reduced my refund, rather than making me owe.

    I also agree with AbyddonKrafts that for some, it may be a benefit to not have that money for most of the year.   Not for me, though, as I have loans to pay off and can use the money through the year to pay off loan interest quicker.



  • @AbbydonKrafts said:

    @morbiuswilters said:
    So if you make $200k selling drugs, you have to report it, but you don't have to report how you got it.
    And it's in your best interest to do so. There have been a few that have been taken down for "tax evasion" instead of the crime that the money came from.

    If you're pulling down 200k from selling drugs every year, you're either rolling in straigh cash [homey] or you're laundering your money and putting it in offshore bank accounts. In neither situation would you want to report your illicit income.



  • @dlikhten said:

    Also people don't realize that YOU ALREADY PAID YOUR TAXES. Filing income tax is a way for you to get a refund if you overpaid taxes that year, or possibly pay if you underpaid (which you can't do more than 3 times i think), so income tax is actaully a benefit for most people rather than a loss of money.

    I think you're the loonie. Income tax is in no way a benefit for anybody.

     Also, not all sources of income have tax withholding applied.



  • @PJH said:

    Is this for the previous tax year alone? How are the IRS taxes collected?

    Yes. That is only one year's filing. Taxes are taken out each paycheck based on the number I provided on the withholding form (forgot the form number). However, I tend to be a little short ($100-200). The 1099-MISC is what caused such a high debt. Technically, I'm supposed to send taxes quarterly to prevent a penalty, but that would require me to hold onto the money (which is hard with my wife around). Instead, I just get the $75 payment arrangement penalty, some other penalty, and interest charged on my total debt. I pay $75 online to the IRS every month.

    @Welbog said:

    That's some pretty hilarious bad financing right there. Using the IRS as a shitty bank that doesn't give interest! What a great idea!

    Really? 3.5% (or less -- I haven't looked it up recently) is not much interest to fool with. Also, if you read my original reply, I made a very specific point:

    By sending it to the IRS, there's no way to get to it until tax time.

    Some people have a hard time saving up on their own. For instance, I always come close to an empty account by the time my paycheck arrives. I've told my wife over and over that there's no way for us to move into a bigger house if we don't start saving up for a down payment. Also, we don't have a safety buffer for when emergencies arise. Does this motivate her to quit spending it? Nope. However, if I was to send it all to the IRS, at least she couldn't touch it for a year. Eventually I will do that when I figure out a complete budget.



  • @savar said:

    In neither situation would you want to report your illicit income.

    Tell that to those that have been taken down for "tax evasion" because they were living so luxuriously, but never filed taxes on the money. The IRS does not ask you how you got the money. They just want their piece of it. By filing, there's no way to be taken down for evasion.



  • @AbbydonKrafts said:

    @morbiuswilters said:
    You are better off underpaying and ending up with a small tax bill on April 15 rather than getting a refund, otherwise you loaned your money to the government for free that entire time instead of having it in your possession.

    Some people I know purposefully overpay. They do it because they know they'd spend it if they had it. By sending it to the IRS, there's no way to get to it until tax time. My supervisor always gets back $1,000+ when she files, and she uses it for a vacation. I'd do that, but I need the money each paycheck. The only reason I owed so much recently is because of the 1099-MISC from doing housekeeping for the company. Those were around $5,000 each time. Previously, I owed $100-200 tops. We no longer do the housekeeping, though, so next year it will be back to around $200. We only did 2 months this year before they hired a company that would bill them with Net 30.

     

    The thing is morbiuswilters is right. If you underpay you actually get interest on that money. You don't actually GET any money, you just get money back that you overpaid.

     

    You can't use the 5th amendment out of court for self-incrimination clause:


    The Fifth Amendment protects witnesses from being forced to incriminate themselves. To "plead the Fifth" is a refusal to answer a question because the response could form self incriminating evidence.


    Also it applies to coerced confessions where any self-incriminating statements cannot be used if they were coerced such as police interigation for 5-days straight or physical torture.

     

    This does not include questions by the IRS as to where you got the money. Ever hear of money laundering? If the 5th could get you out of it, you would not need to conceal where money came from.



  • morbiuswilters wrote: "What in God's name are you talking about?  The 5th amendment applies to any interaction with the government."

    No person shall be held to answer for any capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

    I think you will find that you are incorrect in your assumption.  The specific case that Spectate's "brother" is making fails since the injunction against testifying against oneself specifically applies to being in a court of law.  The Bill of Rights contains no right to hide evidence of a crime, which is what the idiot is asserting.

    Other than the clause allowing eminent domain, the Fifth Amendment specifically addresses issues in which a citizen and the government are intersecting in a court of criminal law. Later jurisprudence may have also extended the principle to civil proceedings as well, but that doesn't change the point, it simply extends the point.



  • @AbbydonKrafts said:

    By sending it to the IRS, there's no way to get to it until tax time.
     

    I
    agree.  For me, it's better getting a $2000 lump sum than it would
    be to get the $38.46 per week.  Yes I know I could be missing out
    on interest, but nevertheless I doubt that I'd save the extra cash in
    the first place -- I'd more likely spend it (on booze and cigarettes,
    perhaps?) 



  •  Thanks mrprogguy.

     

    nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself

    that does not apply outside of court.

    If you are legaly alowed to hide your own crimes, or use that evidence against you... how do we catch criminals? fluffy bunnies and rainbows will tell us who is guilty, well that is actually countered too with the fact that a grand jury must first see your case before it is even considered and no grand jury will alow that



  • @mrprogguy said:

    I think you will find that you are incorrect in your assumption.  The specific case that Spectate's "brother" is making fails since the injunction against testifying against oneself specifically applies to being in a court of law.  The Bill of Rights contains no right to hide evidence of a crime, which is what the idiot is asserting.

    I specifically said he was wrong, that the 5th doesn't protect you from filing, but it does protect you from incriminating yourself.  By quoting the text of the 5th amendment you've shown you have no idea how laws are interpreted in the United States.  The amendment itself is only a starting point, the law is further refined through legislation and court precedent.

     

    @mrprogguy said:

    Other than the clause allowing eminent domain, the Fifth Amendment specifically addresses issues in which a citizen and the government are intersecting in a court of criminal law. Later jurisprudence may have also extended the principle to civil proceedings as well, but that doesn't change the point, it simply extends the point.

    It applies to any situation where a citizen is compelled to answer questions by the government, whether in a criminal or civil court, Congressional testimony, police interrogation, sworn affadavit or income tax return.  Citizens DO NOT have to incriminate themselves on their income tax returns, but that does not protect them from filing.



  • @AbbydonKrafts said:

    @Welbog said:
    That's some pretty hilarious bad financing right there. Using the IRS as a shitty bank that doesn't give interest! What a great idea!

    Really? 3.5% (or less -- I haven't looked it up recently) is not much interest to fool with.

    Ha! I wish it were 3.5%.  I looked at what my bank was offering just yesterday, and the APY for a 60 month CD is only 2.95%.  According to bankrate.com, the best APY you'll find for a 60 month CD is about 4.5%, which is downright miserable.



  • @dlikhten said:

    that does not apply outside of court.

    Wrong.  Read my post above.

     

    @dlikhten said:

    If you are legaly alowed to hide your own crimes, or use that evidence against you... how do we catch criminals?

    You are not legally allowed to commit crimes (obviously) and any attempts to hide them are only going to be successful if nobody finds out.  If the evidence is found, it can be used, so long as it was obtained legally.  However, you are never required to incriminate yourself when you are compelled to testify.  However, you are required to incriminate others.

     

    @dlikhten said:

    fluffy bunnies and rainbows will tell us who is guilty

    Eyewitnesses, physical evidence and inconsistencies in the defendant's own testimony are what are used to convict people.



  • @AbbydonKrafts said:

    Tell that to those that have been taken down for "tax evasion" because they were living so luxuriously, but never filed taxes on the money. The IRS does not ask you how you got the money. Theyjust want their piece of it. By filing, there's no way to be taken down for evasion.
     

     The IRS might not care, but filing a 200k tax return and not having the tax form from a company would definitly signify illegal activity to many different investigators. Why do you think Tony Soprano was so worried about losing his form in the garbage deal?



  • @shadowman said:

    The IRS does not claim income taxes are voluntary. In fact, they list that and other arguments as well known tax scams.

    You fail reading comprehension.  Here is my quote again, with some highlighting to help out:

    @morbiuswilters said:

    ...the IRS claims income taxes are "voluntary" <font color="#cc0000" size="4">but that's pretty much nonsense.</font>

     

    If you don't pay your taxes, you are committing a crime.  However, the IRS claims the income tax is voluntary, in the sense that they don't actually take the money from you, they rely on individuals to report their own income truthfully.  The threat of criminal penalties is used to ensure people comply with this.  I'm not saying you don't have to pay your taxes, just that it is "voluntary" in the same sense that not murdering people is "voluntary". 



  • @DeLos said:

    @AbbydonKrafts said:

    Tell that to those that have been taken down for "tax evasion" because they were living so luxuriously, but never filed taxes on the money. The IRS does not ask you how you got the money. Theyjust want their piece of it. By filing, there's no way to be taken down for evasion.
     

     The IRS might not care, but filing a 200k tax return and not having the tax form from a company would definitly signify illegal activity to many different investigators. Why do you think Tony Soprano was so worried about losing his form in the garbage deal?

     

    Yeah really. Anybody here who would claim their 200k worth of drug money on their income tax return is a complete and total fool. I don't know where people get these ideas from.

    "Oh the government will never think to question where my sudden source of 200k in income came from.... "

    News flash - The IRS' records are the most common evidence used to obtain the warrants against mafias, gangsters and drug dealers.



  • @DeLos said:

    The IRS might not care, but filing a 200k tax return and not having the tax form from a company would definitly signify illegal activity to many different investigators.

    Yeah, it's definitely going to raise some eyebrows.  However, it's completely legal for you to take the 5th on your income tax return and you can't be pursued over it.  Remember, taking the 5th is not an admission of guilt and cannot be treated as such by the government.  "Pursued" is a grey area, though, because you may end up under closer scrutiny which will allow agencies to bust you over something else.  In practice, that is generally accepted in a court of law, so long as the agencies didn't show too much preference for you just because of your income tax return.  Additionally, the agencies might not mention your income tax return as the starting point for their suspicions: how are you going to prove that those DEA agents didn't stumble onto your smuggling operation from some other lead?



  • @MasterPlanSoftware said:

    Yeah really. Anybody here who would claim their 200k worth of drug money on their income tax return is a complete and total fool.

    Agreed.  My point was more that you are still able to do so legally without having the government hound you about it.  It is still not a very wise move.  It would be interesting to do if you had a completely legal source of income, though.  I should just start reporting my salary without giving a source and see how long until I have the FBI/DEA/DHS tailing me..

     

    @MasterPlanSoftware said:

    News flash - The IRS' records are the most common evidence used to obtain the warrants against mafias, gangsters and drug dealers.

    True, but that's NOT because they took the 5th.  The fact you took the 5th can't be used as evidence of anything in a court of law, except that you took the 5th. 



  • @MasterPlanSoftware said:

    News flash - The IRS' records are the most common evidence used to obtain the warrants against mafias, gangsters and drug dealers.
    Just ask Al Copone.

    On the radio, just after they hung up on this clown, they were talking about how Al Copone got Syphillis in prison.  They had convicted him for not paying taxes. 

    Learn from Al, always launder your money to be safe from Syphillis.  Launder your sheets too.



  • @AbbydonKrafts said:

    Some people have a hard time saving up on their own. For instance, I always come close to an empty account by the time my paycheck arrives. I've told my wife over and over that there's no way for us to move into a bigger house if we don't start saving up for a down payment. Also, we don't have a safety buffer for when emergencies arise. Does this motivate her to quit spending it? Nope. However, if I was to send it all to the IRS, at least she couldn't touch it for a year. Eventually I will do that when I figure out a complete budget.
    What about long-term high-interest savings plans? I don't know about the US, but up here in Canada we have national registered savings bonds that cannot be withdrawn until the bond expires. Banks also have their own plans on top of that. It gives you the "benefit" of keeping money away from your wife (who is the real WTF in this case) with the added bonus of interest.

    But really you need to teach your wife about how money works.



  • @morbiuswilters said:

    @shadowman said:

    The IRS does not claim income taxes are voluntary. In fact, they list that and other arguments as well known tax scams.

    You fail reading comprehension.  Here is my quote again, with some highlighting to help out:

    @morbiuswilters said:

    ...the IRS claims income taxes are "voluntary" <font color="#cc0000" size="4">but that's pretty much nonsense.</font>

    If
    you don't pay your taxes, you are committing a crime.  However,
    the IRS claims the income tax is voluntary, in the sense that they
    don't actually take the money from you, they rely on individuals to
    report their own income truthfully.  The threat of criminal
    penalties is used to ensure people comply with this.  I'm not
    saying you don't have to pay your taxes, just that it is "voluntary" in
    the same sense that not murdering people is "voluntary". 

     

    Excuse
    me?  I disputed the first part of your sentence,  and said
    nothing to contradict the part you highlited -- I agree that it's
    nonsense (whether they claim it or not) .  Someone else seems to
    be lacking in reading comprehension as well.

    But nevermind -- I think we just had two different ideas of voluntary in mind.



  • @morbiuswilters said:

    My point was more that you are still able to do so legally without having the government hound you about it. 
     

    Of course they should and would hound you. The 5th is only going to make it so they can't make YOU tell them where the money came from. However the FBI, DEA and ATF will likely investigate you as much as possible to find out where the money is coming from. 

    @morbiuswilters said:

    True, but that's NOT because they took the 5th.  The fact you took the 5th can't be used as evidence of anything in a court of law, except that you took the 5th. 

    I have no idea why you are arguing this with my statement. I was not arguing about anything close to the 5th.

    The simple fact is that if you claim a substantial income that's origins are suspicious you are likely to be investigated. And they can use that tax return against you as much as they want.

     

    The only place the 5th ammendment applies is when they ask you: "Where did all of that money come from?" You can reply "I plead the fifth."

    That doesn't mean anything except that they cannot say in court "Well you honor, he plead the fifth, obviously he has something to hide. Please lock him away."

    They still need to go and gather a case against you. It really is not complicated enough for anyone to be arguing about.



  • @MasterPlanSoftware said:

    Of course they should and would hound you. The 5th is only going to make it so they can't make YOU tell them where the money came from. However the FBI, DEA and ATF will likely investigate you as much as possible to find out where the money is coming from.

    Taking the fifth in and of itself doesn't provide probable cause.  I'm not saying they can't investigate you, just that they have to be careful in how they proceed.  If anyone who took the fifth could be "hounded" meaning warrants could be issued, property seized and arrests made simply on account of taking the fifth, then the amendment would be meaningless.  Like I said, it's a grey area and the nuances are beyond my knowledge.  I have no doubt that you could be busted, but the tax return cannot play a large part in that at all, all it will do is attract unwanted attention (which is still stupid).

     

    @MasterPlanSoftware said:

    The simple fact is that if you claim a substantial income that's origins are suspicious you are likely to be investigated.

    Yep.

     

    @MasterPlanSoftware said:

    And they can use that tax return against you as much as they want.

     

    If you claimed the fifth, then it's not much use to any investigation except as a jumping-off point.

     

    @MasterPlanSoftware said:

    The only place the 5th ammendment applies is when they ask you: "Where did all of that money come from?" You can reply "I plead the fifth."

    That doesn't mean anything except that they cannot say in court "Well you honor, he plead the fifth, obviously he has something to hide. Please lock him away."

    They still need to go and gather a case against you. It really is not complicated enough for anyone to be arguing about.

    However, you pleading the fifth cannot be a basis for building a case against you.  I'm only arguing because it seems to me that you aren't quite agreeing on that point and IMHO the issues and case history surrounding the fifth amendment are extremely complicated and leave plenty of unanswered questions.



  • @morbiuswilters said:

    I have no doubt that you could be busted, but the tax return cannot play a large part in that at all, all it will do is attract unwanted attention (which is still stupid).
     

    Filing a tax return is NOT pleading the fifth and is in no way related. Your tax return definitely can be used against you freely in a court of law.



  • @morbiuswilters said:

    @MasterPlanSoftware said:
    And they can use that tax return against you as much as they want.
    If you claimed the fifth, then it's not much use to any investigation except as a jumping-off point.

    I'm confused by this.  Maybe I haven't followed very well.  How would you claim the 5th on your tax return?  If you've filed a tax return, it should be as admissible as a bloody axe.



  • @belgariontheking said:

    @morbiuswilters said:

    @MasterPlanSoftware said:
    And they can use that tax return against you as much as they want.
    If you claimed the fifth, then it's not much use to any investigation except as a jumping-off point.

    I'm confused by this.  Maybe I haven't followed very well.  How would you claim the 5th on your tax return?  If you've filed a tax return, it should be as admissible as a bloody axe.

     

    Not to mention you have to sign it certifying everything within the tax return is true under penalty of perjury.



  • @belgariontheking said:

    @morbiuswilters said:

    @MasterPlanSoftware said:
    And they can use that tax return against you as much as they want.
    If you claimed the fifth, then it's not much use to any investigation except as a jumping-off point.

    I'm confused by this.  Maybe I haven't followed very well.  How would you claim the 5th on your tax return?  If you've filed a tax return, it should be as admissible as a bloody axe.

    You can't claim the 5th on your tax return.  You have to report the income.  You do not have to report where you got the income (though it may throw up red flags).  If you were to be approached by a government official who demanded to know where the income came from, you're welcome to plead the 5th on that issue.  But they can still use the tax return as evidence.



  • @MasterPlanSoftware said:

    Your tax return definitely can be used against you freely in a court of law.
     

    [url=http://online.wsj.com/article/SB120752549042393619.html?mod=googlenews_wsj]The court of public opinion too ...[/url]

     



  • @bstorer said:

    You do not have to report where you got the income
     

    Right, and with any significant amount of money, it will be a definite audit and possible criminal investigation.

     

    In the example provided, claiming your 200k of drug money would be about the dumbest possible thing you could do. This is why people launder their money, or keep it in offshore accounts.



  • @MasterPlanSoftware said:

    In the example provided, claiming your 200k of drug money would be about the dumbest possible thing you could do. This is why people launder their money, or keep it in offshore accounts.
    Yes, but this is also why you are required to report all of your income.  Because even though the FBI may not be able to build a case against you for ordering the murders of members of your rival cartel, they might be able to catch you with unreported income.



  • @morbiuswilters said:

    By quoting the text of the 5th amendment you've shown you have no idea how laws are interpreted in the United States.  The amendment itself is only a starting point, the law is further refined through legislation and court precedent.
    Not to mention that 16 > 5.  Therefore, whatever the 16th Amendment says will overrule the 5th Amendment.

    <font size="+1">1</font><font size="+1">6th Amendment: The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on
    incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several States, and without regard to any census or
    enumeration.</font>

    Having said that, I suppose it's just like any other law:  You don't get in trouble until you get caught.



  • @bstorer said:

    Because even though the FBI may not be able to build a case against you for ordering the murders of members of your rival cartel, they might be able to catch you with unreported income.
    That could never happen!



  • @Welbog said:

    @AbbydonKrafts said:

    Some people have a hard time saving up on their own. For instance, I always come close to an empty account by the time my paycheck arrives. I've told my wife over and over that there's no way for us to move into a bigger house if we don't start saving up for a down payment. Also, we don't have a safety buffer for when emergencies arise. Does this motivate her to quit spending it? Nope. However, if I was to send it all to the IRS, at least she couldn't touch it for a year. Eventually I will do that when I figure out a complete budget.
    What about long-term high-interest savings plans? I don't know about the US, but up here in Canada we have national registered savings bonds that cannot be withdrawn until the bond expires. Banks also have their own plans on top of that. It gives you the "benefit" of keeping money away from your wife (who is the real WTF in this case) with the added bonus of interest.

    But really you need to teach your wife about how money works.

     

    There are a number of ways to save money:  savings account, money markets, CDs, Government Bonds, Corporate bonds, retirement accounts, Stocks, etc.  And giving the the government is really the worst way.  0% interest, and no way to get it back early.  With bonds you can at least sell them earlier for less of a profit.  Anyways, 3.5% is a retarted amount of interest.  You should be aiming for 15% (10% if you are more conservative, 20% if more aggressive).  That means that if you are overpaying by $5000/year the amortization schedule at 10% interest would be as follows:

     

    <col style="width: 48pt;" width="64"> <col style="width: 86pt;" width="114"> <col style="width: 65pt;" width="87">
    saved I this year I total
    5000 500 500
    5000 550 1050
    5000 605 1655
    5000 665.5 2320.5
    5000 732.05 3052.55
    5000 805.255 3857.805
    5000 885.7805 4743.5855
    5000 974.35855 5717.94405
    5000 1071.794405 6789.738455
    5000 1178.973846 7968.712301
    5000 1296.87123 9265.583531
    5000 1426.558353 10692.14188
    5000 1569.214188 12261.35607
    5000 1726.135607 13987.49168
    5000 1898.749168 15886.24085
    5000 2088.624085 17974.86493
    5000 2297.486493 20272.35142
    5000 2527.235142 22799.58657
    5000 2779.958657 25579.54522
    5000 3057.954522 28637.49975
    5000 3363.749975 32001.24972
    5000 3700.124972 35701.37469
    5000 4070.137469 39771.51216
    5000 4477.151216 44248.66338
    5000 4924.866338 49173.52972
    5000 5417.352972 54590.88269
    5000 5959.088269 60549.97096
    5000 6554.997096 67104.96805

     

    so at 10% interest in 30 years you will make another 67K. 

    At 20% (for aggressive investors)

     

    <col style="width: 48pt;" width="64"> <col style="width: 86pt;" width="114"> <col style="width: 65pt;" width="87">
    saved I this year I total
    5000 1000 1000
    5000 1200 2200
    5000 1440 3640
    5000 1728 5368
    5000 2073.6 7441.6
    5000 2488.32 9929.92
    5000 2985.984 12915.904
    5000 3583.1808 16499.0848
    5000 4299.81696 20798.90176
    5000 5159.780352 25958.68211
    5000 6191.736422 32150.41853
    5000 7430.083707 39580.50224
    5000 8916.100448 48496.60269
    5000 10699.32054 59195.92323
    5000 12839.18465 72035.10787
    5000 15407.02157 87442.12945
    5000 18488.42589 105930.5553
    5000 22186.11107 128116.6664
    5000 26623.33328 154739.9997
    5000 31947.99994 186687.9996
    5000 38337.59992 225025.5995
    5000 46005.11991 271030.7195
    5000 55206.14389 326236.8633
    5000 66247.37267 392484.236
    5000 79496.8472 471981.0832
    5000 95396.21664 567377.2999
    5000 114475.46 681852.7598
    5000 137370.552 819223.3118

     so by not paying early you make an additional $819,000 in 30 years.



  • @boomzilla said:

    Therefore, whatever the 16th Amendment says will overrule the 5th Amendment.

    Where does the 16th Amendment say anything about repealing the protections of the 5th amendment? 



  • If I wanted to put away money out of concern that I'd spend too much, I'd use a locked-in RRSP.  The government isn't going to pay you any interest on it.  At least in Canada, you can take money out of a locked-in account for housing, education, and obviously retirement - the three main things that people actually "save up" for - but not for any other purpose.

    As for the people saying that they don't want their taxes withheld and would rather pay at the end of the year, you do realize there's interest if you don't pay in regular instalments.  If you think you can get a better ROI investing it elsewhere and make up the difference, then by all means do so, but be careful.  If you just want that money to spend on [I]whatever[/I], you're going to be worse off by the end of the year.

    And if you honestly believe that you can [I]consistently[/I] make 10% to 20% interest each year, you're dreaming.



  • @morbiuswilters said:

    @boomzilla said:

    Therefore, whatever the 16th Amendment says will overrule the 5th Amendment.

    Where does the 16th Amendment say anything about repealing the protections of the 5th amendment? 

     

    I understand most of your argument about the 5th amendment, but I have to point out that I think you are way off base with tax returns being covered under the 5th amendment. It is just patently untrue.

     

    Of course, I could be misunderstanding you, but it sure sounds like that is what you are saying.



  • @MasterPlanSoftware said:

    Not to mention you have to sign it certifying everything within the tax return is true under penalty of perjury.

    Which is precisely why you can claim the 5th.  You cannot refuse to pay taxes by using the fifth amendment, but you can refuse to disclose the source of the income if it would incriminate you because a tax document is a form of compulsory testimony.  Additionally, your refusal to state where the income came from will almost certainly raise red flags, but it cannot form the basis of a case against you.



  • @bstorer said:

    You can't claim the 5th on your tax return.

    You can, by refusing to specify the source of the income.

     

    @bstorer said:

    But they can still use the tax return as evidence.

    Evidence of what?  You have committed no crime.  It would be useless as evidence in a court of law. 

     



  • @MasterPlanSoftware said:

    I understand most of your argument about the 5th amendment, but I have to point out that I think you are way off base with tax returns being covered under the 5th amendment. It is just patently untrue.

    U.S. v Sullivan settled this.  Because a tax return is a form of compulsory testimony, you are permitted to invoke the fifth amendment.  Once again, the 5th only allows you to remain silent in cases where you would be incriminating yourself by speaking.  Telling the IRS your income would never be grounds for incrimination so you cannot invoke the 5th as a reason for not filing a tax return.  However, the sources of your income could be incriminating, therefore you are permitted to remain silent on the topic.

     

    To sum up:  The fifth amendment provides complete protection from self-incrimination in regards to any interaction with the government.



  • @morbiuswilters said:

    Additionally, your refusal to state where the income came from will almost certainly raise red flags, but it cannot form the basis of a case against you.
     

    The act of not stating the source of the income may not be used in the case, but it will be the basis of the ensuing investigation against you.

    I highly doubt you would successfully hold up a defense based on the 5th amendment when indicted on tax fraud. The tax forms clearly say: "Under penalties of perjury, I declare that I have examined this return, and to the best of my knowledge and belief, it is true, correct, and accurately lists all amounts and sources of income I received during the tax year."

    Not stating the accurate source of income would not be a wise thing to do. I will agree most prosecutors would probably shy away from the 5th amendment argument and just go straight to the evidence against you... as there will no doubt be tracks the investigators will find. However, the form and your lack of accuracy/truth will no doubt be exhibited in court during your tax fraud/evasion trial.



  • @morbiuswilters said:

    Evidence of what?  You have committed no crime.
     

    200k dollars of drug money is certainly considered a crime. 


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