The Future of "Garaging"
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Sole moderator/admin/dictator note: I'm hijacking this top post, after extracting it from another thread, and putting my thoughts at the top. Because I can.
I've been studying/following the Garage for a while now. We've also got some backlog'd discussions in the Sekret Nomination Talks, but gist of it is that the Garage is more about Tone than Topic. A place to be politically incorrect and have fun, often about politics. New membership is still restricted, but it will be open and clarified soon.
As a general rule, we can't say "Politics in the Garage", because everything can be politicized. That said, if you see a statement/idea expressed that you feel is "too political", then please chose one of four options:
- Don't respond. Someone said something on the internet and you disagree. That's okay.
- Flag it. If it's a repeat problem, then the @mods (just me for now) will talk to the member.
- If you want to shitpost or be troll-ish about it, reply as a topic in the Garage.
- If you want to politely/intelligently discuss it (knowing it's a topic you will likely fundamentally disagree with), then wait until the Salon reopens, or petition the dictator for a moderated discussion. I've been waiting for this opportunity.
And now the original post...
__@Rhywden said in Another GDPR? Electric googleoo?:
Sorry, but that is Garage material.
I think that's the first time I agree with you on that. Except your own post is just as garage-worthy. Try to keep all political posts in the garage. All of them. All. Every single one. Even ones that praise politicians instead of just shitting on them like usual.
Everyone else - please, please, please keep it about Google only or monopolies in general and not even mention EU or any other country anymore. Or let's just move the whole thread to garage where it should probably have been all along.
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@Gąska said in Another GDPR? Electric googleoo?:
not even mention EU or any other country
That's a bit difficult, as the topic is specifically about something the EU may do.
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@HardwareGeek so let's move the thread to garage. @mods
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@Gąska said in Another GDPR? Electric googleoo?:
@HardwareGeek so let's move the thread to garage. @mods
Who, now? AFAIK, we're still under the dictator's thumb. @apapadimoulis.
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@Rhywden said in Another GDPR? Electric googleoo?:
@Benjamin-Hall said in Another GDPR? Electric googleoo?:
But the thought of allowing an international body known for being out of touch with the normal people to have fine-grained control either....I can't see that it's any better.
Sorry, but that is Garage material. The EU has done plenty of stuff for the "normal people", it's just that it seems to have become second nature to people to automatically whine about everything just because their latest special interest thingie was not picked up in the way they liked.
For example, the EU forced national government to open the energy market. Before they did that, you were not allowed to change your energy provider.
They are also the ones who uphold the rules so that, say, Champagner has to come from the Champagne. And not from Greece. Thanks to them we now have common signage for chemicals. Airlines are actually forced to give you money if the flight is delayed and are forced to care about accomodations in case of a cancellation or large delay. Mobile data roaming is free now (roaming phone calls were free even earlier).And so on and so forth.
I find it highly annoying that you people always laser focus on what you perceive as bad and completely ignore the upsides.
Don't bother responding. I have no interest in discussing this with close minded fools. Come back when you're willing to discuss this fairly.
I'm not sure what thread you meant to post this in, but I think you posted this here by mistake.
This thread largely consists of people who live in America being worried about this plan because of the EU's reputation for heavy-handedness and unaccountability, while recognizing
- That the US does this too
- That the companies the EU wants to regulate are, in fact, bad actors.
For this community, this is an uncharacteristically polite conversation about the EU.
Is your point that no one is allowed to criticize or question the EU ever?
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@boomzilla said in Another GDPR? Electric googleoo?:
@Gąska said in Another GDPR? Electric googleoo?:
@HardwareGeek so let's move the thread to garage. @mods
Who, now? AFAIK, we're still under the dictator's thumb. @apapadimoulis.
Right hand? More like right warthog.
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@Gąska said in Another GDPR? Electric googleoo?:
@boomzilla said in Another GDPR? Electric googleoo?:
@Gąska said in Another GDPR? Electric googleoo?:
@HardwareGeek so let's move the thread to garage. @mods
Who, now? AFAIK, we're still under the dictator's thumb. @apapadimoulis.
Right hand? More like right warthog.
We're still under the dictator's
thumbknee.
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This should have been preemptively put in the garage. I see that @Benjamin-Hall is cosplaying as @Polygeekery.
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@Gąska said in Another GDPR? Electric googleoo?:
@Rhywden said in Another GDPR? Electric googleoo?:
Sorry, but that is Garage material.
I think that's the first time I agree with you on that. Except your own post is just as garage-worthy. Try to keep all political posts in the garage. All of them. All. Every single one. Even ones that praise politicians instead of just shitting on them like usual.
Everyone else - please, please, please keep it about Google only or monopolies in general and not even mention EU or any other country anymore. Or let's just move the whole thread to garage where it should probably have been all along.
I was going to post that mentioning or complaining about politics should not be automatic garage, unless I've missed an explicit rule somewhere. Once a political topic escalates then it should be in the garage.
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@SlackerD said in Another GDPR? Electric googleoo?:
This should have been preemptively put in the garage. I see that @Benjamin-Hall is cosplaying as @Polygeekery.
I thought I was neutral enough. But I see that wasn't an option. I'm fine with moving this to the garage.
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@Benjamin-Hall said in Another GDPR? Electric googleoo?:
@SlackerD said in Another GDPR? Electric googleoo?:
This should have been preemptively put in the garage. I see that @Benjamin-Hall is cosplaying as @Polygeekery.
I thought I was neutral enough. But I see that wasn't an option. I'm fine with moving this to the garage.
You were, but politics is a powder keg on here. And as usual, I see a certain economic libertarian lit the fuse.
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@SlackerD said in Another GDPR? Electric googleoo?:
@Benjamin-Hall said in Another GDPR? Electric googleoo?:
@SlackerD said in Another GDPR? Electric googleoo?:
This should have been preemptively put in the garage. I see that @Benjamin-Hall is cosplaying as @Polygeekery.
I thought I was neutral enough. But I see that wasn't an option. I'm fine with moving this to the garage.
You were, but politics is a powder keg on here. And as usual, I see a certain economic libertarian lit the fuse.
Yeah. Oh for less volatile politics/life intersection. A pipe-dream, I'm sure.
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@mikehurley said in Another GDPR? Electric googleoo?:
@Gąska said in Another GDPR? Electric googleoo?:
@Rhywden said in Another GDPR? Electric googleoo?:
Sorry, but that is Garage material.
I think that's the first time I agree with you on that. Except your own post is just as garage-worthy. Try to keep all political posts in the garage. All of them. All. Every single one. Even ones that praise politicians instead of just shitting on them like usual.
Everyone else - please, please, please keep it about Google only or monopolies in general and not even mention EU or any other country anymore. Or let's just move the whole thread to garage where it should probably have been all along.
I was going to post that mentioning or complaining about politics should not be automatic garage, unless I've missed an explicit rule somewhere. Once a political topic escalates then it should be in the garage.
It always escalates. Always. Aallwwaayyss.
At the moment there are no explicit rules whatsoever. We're still waiting for @apapadimoulis to appoint someone as an admin (over 3 months and counting!). But it should be common knowledge by now that several users here go ballistic as soon as anyone criticizes any of the politicians they like for anything, and the entire point of Garage is to avoid exactly this scenario.
Also, lately I've had multiple people to take my non-political shitposting to Garage. I'd like to use this thread for my little personal crusade against declaring all trollery to be garage-worthy. I really don't want this place to turn into a Care Bear Central, to borrow Blakey's wording. Especially since all care bears have left long ago. So I try to push the agenda that Garage is the place for all politics and only politics - so everyone can still freely shitpost on non-political stuff anywhere.
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@Gąska said in Another GDPR? Electric googleoo?:
Also, lately I've had multiple people to take my non-political shitposting to Garage.
I think I was one of those people, and my post and its follow up were very much tongue-in-cheek
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This post is deleted!
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@apapadimoulis said in The Future of "Garaging":
Sole moderator/admin/dictator note: I'm hijacking this top post
WTF HOW DOES THAT EVEN WORK??? I mean on the technical level. Did you run some SQL directly on database or is it built-in functionality?
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@Gąska I "forked" the discussion to a new Topic, edited the first post, changed the Topic Owner to me, then moved to Meta.
I think I could have also created a new topic, then moved posts one-by-one, but the Forking operation lets you select multiple posts by clicking on them. Maybe move does too? I dunno.
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@apapadimoulis said in The Future of "Garaging":
changed the Topic Owner to me
Huh. Interesting feature.
@apapadimoulis said in The Future of "Garaging":
but gist of it is that the Garage is more about Tone than Topic.
I'm a little worried. Does that mean we can't (or soon won't be able to) threaten to anally rape other forum users with an authentic medieval morning star for their abuse of design antipatterns anymore, outside of garage?
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@Gąska
That last one just sounds like peaceful protesting to me
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@apapadimoulis said in The Future of "Garaging":
I "forked" the discussion to a new Topic, edited the first post, changed the Topic Owner to me, then moved to Meta.
Meh, 5/10 for that Jeff impression. You forgot to tell us that we're Doing It Wrong™.
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@Gąska I guess it would really depend on the antipattern, and whether they used JavaScript or not
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But really, the "Garage" has evolved to be a place for off-topic (i.e. non-software engineering), politically-incorrect "discussions" (flamewars? shitposts? a place where you can have fun being over-the-top).
Today's "incident pattern" has happened only like a handful of times since I've taken over, and we've discussed it a few times in Sekret talks.
In the future, once I transition things, I'd want a moderator review to review it with this mindset...
@Benjamin-Hall's statement ("an international body known for being out of touch with the normal people") was a tinsy-bit provocative, but it's an observation/argument that could be applied to any such governing body, from a the W3C to the local school board. It's a disparaging remark, but it's not directed towards anyone in particular nor towards a "protected" group (race, religion, sexuality, etc.). So, no problem.
@Rhywden's reply was pretty inflamed (bad mood today?) for a number of reasons, and instead of replying he should have followed one of the four patterns I mentioned (ignore, escalate, garage, salon). The reply certainly had Garage-potential, but could have been a bit more flamey if that was the intent; it also was a valid topic for a civil (real) discussion in the Salon. But in any case, it was deleted, along with all subsequent replies, like it never happened.
Note: I didn't delete the subsequent replies though, instead moved them here as a means to update.
If this were a persistent problem (which it's not), then I'd take further action. But it's not, so it can be left as is.
Note: this would all be non-public (maybe discussed in a Staff topic category), but I'm only sharing it now for transparency, since it's a super-rare moderation action on my part.
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@apapadimoulis Yeah, I was in a bad mood because I've become very jaded about this forum's default approach that "All Government Is Bad And I Won't Even Consider Anything To The Contrary". It was not an honest discussion from the start. In the future I'll ignore these posts with great prejudice as they're stupid.
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@Gąska said in The Future of "Garaging":
Does that mean we can't (or soon won't be able to) threaten to anally rape other forum users with an authentic medieval morning star for their abuse of design antipatterns anymore, outside of garage?
Unlike other garage-y stuff, that would be perfectly on topic with the site's original purpose and impossible to misconstrue as serious. (I'm not completely convinced that all similar garage shouting is 100% in jest)
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@Rhywden said in The Future of "Garaging":
It was not an honest discussion from the start.
Some people seem to be infected with things like the QAnon meme. That's unfortunate, but means that you're unlikely to have a good discussion with them and can spend your effort elsewhere on something more productive. Like inventorying your belly button lint.
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@dkf said in The Future of "Garaging":
Some people seem to be infected with things like the QAnon meme
I don't think we have any QAnon people on this site. At least not that I've seen.
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@Gąska said in The Future of "Garaging":
@apapadimoulis said in The Future of "Garaging":
changed the Topic Owner to me
Huh. Interesting feature.
It's fairly new to NodeBB.
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@apapadimoulis said in The Future of "Garaging":
@Rhywden's reply was pretty inflamed (bad mood today?)
Today? YMBNH.
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@boomzilla said in The Future of "Garaging":
@Gąska said in The Future of "Garaging":
@apapadimoulis said in The Future of "Garaging":
changed the Topic Owner to me
Huh. Interesting feature.
It's fairly new to NodeBB.
It shows. Not the first time the "topic's identity is determined by its first post's identity" architecture causes headaches.
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@Zecc said in The Future of "Garaging":
@dkf said in The Future of "Garaging":
the QAnon meme
I'm not familiar with Qt. What does that do?
Anonymizes frontpage stories.
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@Zecc said in The Future of "Garaging":
I'm not familiar with Qt. What does that do?
Makes you use CSS to change how a window control looks - when programming in C++.
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@dcon said in The Future of "Garaging":
@Zecc said in The Future of "Garaging":
I'm not familiar with Qt. What does that do?
Makes you use CSS to change how a window control looks - when programming in C++.
Yeah, that's what the whole "deep state" thing is about. When you're manually editing CSS on the memory-level, it's pretty deep state...
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@apapadimoulis said in The Future of "Garaging":
wait until the Salon reopens
when and why was it closed? could you direct me to the announcement if there was any? when will it reopen?
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@apapadimoulis said in The Future of "Garaging":
As a general rule, we can't say "Politics in the Garage",
@apapadimoulis said in The Future of "Garaging":
Try to keep all political posts in the garage. All of them. All. Every single one.
I agree that "it's politics therefore it must be in the garage" is bullshit but as such discussions here either tend to escalate or just get someone whining about it belonging in the garage before it escalates then it's probably
edit: Oh, I see, the post is a mix of two posts from two different people.
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@apapadimoulis said in The Future of "Garaging":
I'm hijacking this top post, after extracting it from another thread, and putting my thoughts at the top. Because I can.
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@marczellm I assumed it was closed before I got here... if it's not, then I guess no one uses it
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@apapadimoulis I thought you had closed it at the time of the Great Controversy. Maybe Ben closed it before he left. But it was definitely in use up to that point.
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@HardwareGeek that's what I was thinking. Personally I really like the idea, I just wanted to frame some rules and guidelines before encouraging new discussions. The general concept will be that it's not about "debating" (i.e. trying to be right), but more "rationalizing your own opinions and ideas" and "learning the opinions of others" - more to come (no eta, but if anyone is keen on a discussion I'd be happy to trial moderate)
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@dcon said in The Future of "Garaging":
@Zecc said in The Future of "Garaging":
I'm not familiar with Qt. What does that do?
Makes you use CSS to change how a window control looks - when programming in C++.
Only if you use QML. Widgets are still styled using the native API.
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@topspin said in The Future of "Garaging":
@dcon said in The Future of "Garaging":
@Zecc said in The Future of "Garaging":
I'm not familiar with Qt. What does that do?
Makes you use CSS to change how a window control looks - when programming in C++.
Only if you use QML. Widgets are still styled using the native API.
QWidget::setStyleSheetcan do wondrous things for you... (our UI is highly customized - using CSS is actually easier than overridingpaintEvent)
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Has there been an unannounced policy change? I am suddenly unable to downvote posts in the Garage. (I haven't tried anywhere else, because there are seldom posts worthy of downvoting elsewhere.)
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@HardwareGeek huh, so that's what happens! I thought maybe it would remove the button.
I just announced it a few mins ago, but my logic was that downvoting in the Garage has been almost exclusively used for unpopular opinions instead of extraordinarily low-quality replies. That's a bit discouraging, especially if you hold a minority view point, and I think we should encourage diversity in all things, including trolling.
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@apapadimoulis said in The Future of "Garaging":
my logic was that downvoting in the Garage has been almost exclusively used for unpopular opinions
Isn't that the point of upvoting & downvoting? "I agree with that post", "I don't agree with that post", "I like the content of that post", etc.
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@loopback0 said in The Future of "Garaging":
Isn't that the point of upvoting & downvoting?
The uselessness of voting, to me, is that there is no single "point."
Upvoting may mean you agree with the idea, or maybe not but still think it's well-written (i.e. I disagree with your ideas but you did a good job of explaining them), or maybe one bit made you smile/laugh/..., or you want to express some sympathy (a "a loved-one just died" post usually gets a lot of upvotes, I hope it's not because all those people agree or like the content of the post!), or maybe just to say you read that post. And it's even worse for downvoting. Did you find the post offensive? were you offended? did you think it was in bad taste? or that it's simply not answering the question that was asked? or you dislike the content of the answer? or there is a typo that's too ugly to ignore? or maybe it's off-topic? or you just hate the poster? whatever they post, or maybe just when you're drunk?
All those are "valid" reasons, in as much as there is no other reason for a vote than having (voluntarily, let's ignore when you fat-finger it) clicked on the button.
So no downvoting... meh. I don't think it matters either way.
A post at -5 in between posts at 0 will look more or less the same than a post at 0 in between posts at +5 or +10. And if you're posting stuff that's very much against the hivemind and provocative, you might actually think downvotes show your provocation is working.
No voting at all would be a different matter, but that's not what's being discussed here.
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@remi Remember when Facebook had this same problem with the thumbs-up/down choises?
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@acrow all systems where you can up/down vote have this issue.
I see three main ways out:
- you can just say "fuck it, voting is useless" and remove it entirely;
- or you can say "voting is hard but the most basic yes/no (up/down) is a very simple way to convey some feedback without getting trapped in unending discussions, so let's leave it that way and go shopping;"
- or you can say "whooohoo, let's allow the whole Unicode for voting so people can say happy-face-levitating-vomit-black-pointed-star!"
None of those are really satisfying. It's almost like if human communication was hard and had no real "rules."
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@remi That gives me ideas. Bad ideas.
Like, say, most posts here have vote counts below 30. At the extreme, below 50. If each vote could also leave a single unicode symbol to signify the grounds for their up/down vote...
All the symbols could be displayed in a string at the bottom of the post...
You could kind of tell at a glance what people thought about it.
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@remi said in The Future of "Garaging":
- or you can say "voting is hard but the most basic yes/no (up/down) is a very simple way to convey some feedback without getting trapped in unending discussions, so let's leave it that way and go shopping;"
- or you can say "whooohoo, let's allow the whole Unicode for voting so people can say happy-face-levitating-vomit-black-pointed-star!"
None of those are really satisfying
Both of those are fine, IMO.
@acrow said in The Future of "Garaging":
If each vote could also leave a single unicode symbol to signify the grounds for their up/down vote...
All the symbols could be displayed in a string at the bottom of the post...That's the Reactions plugin, which has been discussed here before... somewhere
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@acrow said in The Future of "Garaging":
If each vote could also leave a single unicode symbol to signify the grounds for their up/down vote...
...
You could kind of tell at a glance what people thought about it.But what to think of
or 
?
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@remi said in The Future of "Garaging":
A post at -5 in between posts at 0 will look more or less the same than a post at 0 in between posts at +5 or +10.
It's the difference between ignoring a post and pretending you didn't bother reading, and actively saying you have read and bothered to go out of your way and dislike it. I'd say that's quite a difference.
