Every post has a popcorn button! (Was: creating a thread is so expensive)
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@apapadimoulis said in Every post has a popcorn button! (Was: creating a thread is so expensive):
Guys, our membership is dwindling and has been on a downward trend for years.
I know they're more convenient to use, but for the sake of helping reverse the downward spiral on the community, can you please try to create new topics?
That's worth a try. But it relies on current users, i.e. by definition those who are actually already members, to give a shit about attracting new users. That's not necessarily true...
Also and building on what @Applied-Mediocrity said, one thing of note is that this community hasn't really a common purpose other than
bitchingcomplaining and killing time. We're not really joined by a common hobby, a common technology, a common problem, a common location or anything really.To make a physical analogy, we're not the lobby of a shop (where people can meet strangers and discuss about what's sold in the shop, and maybe also other topics), we're not the forecourt of a school (where parents can meet other parents and discuss children, and maybe also other topics), we're not a churchyard (where people can discuss church-related issues, and maybe also other topics), we're not the lobby of an hotel (where people can meet other random travellers and discuss travel and business/leisure trips, and maybe other topics), we're not... well I hope you get the point.
The best analogy I can come up with is that we're just a bar. Not even one with particularly good drinks, food or music (where we could gather on the understanding that others are likely to be open to discuss drinks, food or music), or located next to a stadium (where... you get it...) or anything specific. Just a random bar in a random nondescript place. Probably a bit grubbier than the average, and with a very rowdy backroom (the garage), but not a Hell's Angels haunt either.
Now you're the owner, and you may want more footfall. Do we feel enough as community (and not just a bunch of random strangers) that we are willing to get off our butts and change our habits? Can you get more footfall by staying a generic nondescript bar or do you want to bring in something that differentiate you from the competition? Or maybe just refresh a bit the decor? And can you get more footfall without making us regulars unhappy?
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@remi said in Every post has a popcorn button! (Was: creating a thread is so expensive):
The best analogy I can come up with is that we're just a bar. Not even one with particularly good drinks, food or music (where we could gather on the understanding that others are likely to be open to discuss drinks, food or music), or located next to a stadium (where... you get it...) or anything specific. Just a random bar in a random nondescript place. Probably a bit grubbier than the average, and with a very rowdy backroom (the garage), but not a Hell's Angels haunt either.
Hey, you described my type of bar! But yeah, that's the feeling I got of the place too, after studying it for a bit.
Now you're the owner, and you may want more footfall. Do we feel enough as community (and not just a bunch of random strangers) that we are willing to get off our butts and change our habits? Can you get more footfall by staying a generic nondescript bar or do you want to bring in something that differentiate you from the competition? Or maybe just refresh a bit the decor? And can you get more footfall without making us regulars unhappy?
Well going with your analogy, the goal isn't more football, it's making sure there are enough new degenerates that will come in and become regulars, as to replace the ones that left / are leaving / will go to AA. Sometimes that means we have to mop the floor, and replace the taps. Maybe a new
machine is in order, since, well, the health department will shut us down in a second if they ever stopped in. And how about fixing the pinball machine that used to work, and just sucks quarters now?
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@apapadimoulis I'm not opposed to any of that (in fact I would probably welcome some changes), but remember that you are making the changes, not the regulars, and asking them to do any effort is not likely to work unless they feel strongly invested in the result (like you do, as the owner).
Pushing the analogy even further, just asking the regulars to stop tearing beer mats in half (or other weird local custom) probably won't work unless you start kicking out the worst offenders (which probably won't go well either). You can switch to harder to tear mats or change something to make that less of a problem, but 1) this is an action for you, not the regulars (who will just go along with it) and 2) you will create some discontent (the trick is to make that discontent small-enough to not actively chase people).
I guess this boils down to two ideas:
- It's up to you (or a dedicated team of volunteers) to make some changes and hope they will nudge the community where you want. Asking everyone (or a significant portion) to change their ways is unlikely to work (at best it will work for a short time to humour you before lapsing back into the old ways).
- Your goals are not necessarily the same as those of the members, individually (they might be the same as the members as a community, but that's not the same as each of us individually). Which means at some point you have to stop listening to what the members (me included...) are saying as we may not go the same way you do. And you will likely loose, or at least disgruntle, some members (and not just because you moved their cheese).
You're clearly already aware of all that (judging from your involvement and previous posts), so I'm not sure why I'm saying it, except to have it clearly written somewhere, I suppose...
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@pie_flavor said in Every post has a popcorn button! (Was: creating a thread is so expensive):
@boomzilla NodeBB does the same by default, for the record.
Correct. I argued with those guys, too. I don't know why anyone ever thought that was a good idea.
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@remi said in Every post has a popcorn button! (Was: creating a thread is so expensive):
Pushing the analogy even further, just asking the regulars to stop tearing beer mats in half (or other weird local custom) probably won't work unless you start kicking out the worst offenders (which probably won't go well either).
Eh, not so sure about that. I think people here are definitely more likely to respond better to being asked nicely (especially by Alex) than cleaning house, and it will probably start some change. Not that it will be completely easy, but it could also be a fun experiment.
Alex noticed that I've decided to start making new threads instead of plonking along in my comfortable and favorite megatopics. We'll see.
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@boomzilla said in Every post has a popcorn button! (Was: creating a thread is so expensive):
Alex noticed that I've decided to start making new threads instead of plonking along in my comfortable and favorite megatopics. We'll see.
I ran across a minor code WTF. It will probably get a few upvotes and, at most, one or two replies, probably none. "WTF bites" is perfect for it. But if I have to make a new thread — find the right category, make up an interesting and descriptive thread title — I probably won't bother posting it at all. Naming things is two of the three hard problems in CS, and this WTF just isn't entertaining enough to bother solving that problem.
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@HardwareGeek said in Every post has a popcorn button! (Was: creating a thread is so expensive):
I ran across a minor code WTF. It will probably get a few upvotes and, at most, one or two replies, probably none.
Maybe. But maybe not. I suppose the same would happen in WTF Bites, right?
No matter where you post it, the community will see. They may like it, they may not.
if I have to make a new thread — find the right category, make up an interesting and descriptive thread title — I probably won't bother posting it at all.
You don't have to do anything. But, all of those you described will get much easier over time, if you try them.
This isn't reddit or stackoverflow where you need to come up with the perfect category, the perfect title, the perfect, description in order to win the most imaginary internet points.
Just give it a shot. Use the function name as the title. "Found at work:
hdars()
". No funny description needed. No one is going to criticize you for the title (do expectfor content however). But it might turn into an interesting discussion because someone added something that no one expected, And if not, that's okay too.
If we have the problem of "too many new topics in a category", then we can figure something else out.
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@apapadimoulis said in Every post has a popcorn button! (Was: creating a thread is so expensive):
No matter where you post it, the community will see.
I disagree.
Both Unread and Recent pages lump together brand new topics and previously existing topics with recent activity, making new topics harder to see, as they are pushed down or lost among the sea of existing topics.
Meanwhile, regulars — and not necessarily active posters; I'm including registered lurkers as well — are more likely to resume reading a thread they frequently visit (or watch, even) exactly from where they left off, because the last read post in a topic is tracked.
Now, you might argue that "previously existing topics with recent activity" would be reduced in number once more people starting creating new topics instead of posting to old ones, and that's a fair point. But... let's be honest: good luck with that. Edit to clarify: I don't mean because hold habits die hard and people will stubbornly insist on posting to old threads out of spite, but because as a topic grows older and more people become involved it becomes more and more likely that there will be new replies that only make sense inline.
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Also, when someone "recycles" a thread, they are bringing visibility to old posts of a common theme which someone might have otherwise missed.
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@Zecc said in Every post has a popcorn button! (Was: creating a thread is so expensive):
Also, when someone "recycles" a thread, they are bringing visibility to old posts of a common theme which someone might have otherwise missed.
Quite often, when someone revitalises a thread I notice that I'd missed reading the last few posts before it went to sleep.
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@Zecc said in Every post has a popcorn button! (Was: creating a thread is so expensive):
Both Unread and Recent pages lump together brand new topics and previously existing topics with recent activity, making new topics harder to see, as they are pushed down or lost among the sea of existing topics.
You're not wrong, the "entire community" won't see every new topic posted.
But... let's be honest: good luck with that.
That felt a bit sarcastic/defeatist to me, but I may have misread it.
I'm not doing anything but asking regulars like yourself to try creating more new topics more often, in an attempt to reverse the dwindling membership numbers. It's a slight habit change, if enough members try, ought to help out quite a lot in this direction.
If you don't want to do this, that's okay. No one's making you. If you don't think it's going to work, that's okay too. I'm very open to other suggestions.
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@dkf said in Every post has a popcorn button! (Was: creating a thread is so expensive):
@Zecc said in Every post has a popcorn button! (Was: creating a thread is so expensive):
Also, when someone "recycles" a thread, they are bringing visibility to old posts of a common theme which someone might have otherwise missed.
Quite often, when someone revitalises a thread I notice that I'd missed reading the last few posts before it went to sleep.
NodeBB will mark the topic as read when it's been open, but frequently won't set the last read post marker correctly if top of the last post is below the midpoint of the screen.
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@PleegWat I was actually talking about cases where I definitely hadn't read the messages. The threads had just slipped my attention…
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@apapadimoulis said in Every post has a popcorn button! (Was: creating a thread is so expensive):
No matter where you post it, the community will see. They may like it, they may not.
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@apapadimoulis said in Every post has a popcorn button! (Was: creating a thread is so expensive):
That felt a bit sarcastic/defeatist to me, but I may have misread it.
Not sarcastic. But defeatist, yeah, for the reasons in the edit.
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@apapadimoulis I've just clicked open a bunch of new threads because they had somewhat appealing titles, so I am prepared to eat my words.
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@Zecc
Need anyketchupmayo with that?
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@Zecc said in Every post has a popcorn button! (Was: creating a thread is so expensive):
Both Unread and Recent pages lump together brand new topics and previously existing topics with recent activity, making new topics harder to see, as they are pushed down or lost among the sea of existing topics.
Meanwhile, regulars — and not necessarily active posters; I'm including registered lurkers as well — are more likely to resume reading a thread they frequently visit (or watch, even) exactly from where they left off, because the last read post in a topic is tracked.I usually get curious when I see a new topic. That could change if there were hundreds of them, but today I'm more likely to read a new topic than a megatopics I'm already bored with
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@boomzilla said in Every post has a popcorn button! (Was: creating a thread is so expensive):
@pie_flavor said in Every post has a popcorn button! (Was: creating a thread is so expensive):
@boomzilla NodeBB does the same by default, for the record.
Correct. I argued with those guys, too. I don't know why anyone ever thought that was a good idea.
And at least the NodeBB guys let it be toggle-able now!
Still can't do that in canon Discourse...
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@dkf said in Every post has a popcorn button! (Was: creating a thread is so expensive):
@PleegWat I was actually talking about cases where I definitely hadn't read the messages. The threads had just slipped my attention…
Often I'm brought out of a middle of a topic, and since it's marked "read" merely by entering it, if I don't come back to it immediately it will be lost until someone replies anew or I immediately come back.
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@sockpuppet7 said in Every post has a popcorn button! (Was: creating a thread is so expensive):
I usually get curious when I see a new topic.
In fairness, you get curious about old topics as well.
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@remi said in Every post has a popcorn button! (Was: creating a thread is so expensive):
We're not really joined by a common hobby, a common technology, a common problem, a common location or anything really.
I disagree with that. We’re basically all tech nerds —either tech pros, amateurs, or enthusiasts — that come here to talk about the industry’s many faults, everything being buggy, and maybe indulge in a bit of cynicism or being jaded once in a while. And sometimes also about cool things too, where the tech hasn’t let us down and is still why it keeps us interested.
It’s a community for nerds and geeks, which is becoming much more mainstream in recent years, but hasn’t always been like that.Sure, we’re not joined by a “common tech” as you said, in the sense that some of us do back-end vs front-end vs
two jobs for the price of one”full stack”; some do low-level C, crappy JS, or evencricketHaskell, etc. etc. For every niche, you can find some sub-niches that are “completely separate”. But for an outsider who isn’t into this kind of stuff, it’s really all the same. A lot of us, I presume, also do enjoy reading about the things that are outside of their current sub-niche bubble but could be inside if they, for example, changed projects or jobs.And whatever weird and obscure topic you’re currently struggling with, you’ll be surprised to find someone here is actually knowledgable about it.
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@topspin said in Every post has a popcorn button! (Was: creating a thread is so expensive):
A lot of us, I presume, also do enjoy reading about the things that are outside of their current sub-niche bubble but could be inside if they, for example, changed projects or jobs.
Yeah, if you pay attention around here you can learn a lot.
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@topspin said in Every post has a popcorn button! (Was: creating a thread is so expensive):
And whatever weird and obscure topic you’re currently struggling with, you’ll be surprised to find someone here is actually knowledgable about it.
And even more people willing to argue about it
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@topspin said in Every post has a popcorn button! (Was: creating a thread is so expensive):
A lot of us, I presume, also do enjoy reading about the things that are outside of their current sub-niche bubble but could be inside if they, for example, changed projects or jobs.
I'd have to pretty much change careers for most of the stuff we talk about to be in my sub-niche bubble, but I definitely have learned a lot here. I've learned far more here about, say, security, databases and functional programming (and in the case of FP, far more than I ever wanted to know
) than I ever would on the job.
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On this bar analogy - it's more like a members' club with a public bar, but quite a bit of the social interaction happens in the private rooms (from what I understand, as I'm not in those rooms) of the Lounge and Garage. (Hey, they even have room like names to help the analogy!)
Not saying that's a problem - both private rooms have good reason to be private - but it does look cliquey. Garage in particular just sounds like a place to have what could be sensible discussions in an aggressive and private manner; could those topics not be discussed civilly in a Salon thread instead? What value does Garage actually have?
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@bobjanova said in Every post has a popcorn button! (Was: creating a thread is so expensive):
could those topics not be discussed civilly in a Salon thread instead?
From what I've heard, no. Discussions there just ended up becoming another version of the Garage, where attacks were passive-agressive rather than openly agressive.
@bobjanova said in Every post has a popcorn button! (Was: creating a thread is so expensive):
What value does Garage actually have?
Keeping up with the analogy, I see it as the place where you want to keep stuff you want out of your house, but you don't have the heart to throw away entirely, because you perhaps mistakingly feel deep down they still have value somehow.
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The garage was set up because a lot of the regulars were getting in fights and annoying the other regulars. Instead of barring them, the barman set up a bare Knuckle ring in the back room
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@bobjanova said in Every post has a popcorn button! (Was: creating a thread is so expensive):
What value does Garage actually have?
Join in, find out!
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@bobjanova said in Every post has a popcorn button! (Was: creating a thread is so expensive):
What value does Garage actually have?
Keeping it in a specific category allows people to ignore the entire category and thus hiding all topics behind a curtain.
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@bobjanova said in Every post has a popcorn button! (Was: creating a thread is so expensive):
Garage in particular just sounds like a place to have what could be sensible discussions in an aggressive and private manner; could those topics not be discussed civilly in a Salon thread instead? What value does Garage actually have?
The kind of topics you see in the Garage can't actually be discussed in the Salon, because the rule in the Garage is that you have to assume good faith.
The understanding with the Garage is supposed to be that we're all friends, and friends bust each other's chops sometimes. And sometimes we use crazy and hyperbolic analogies that look like personal attacks. But because you're dealing with your friends, you assume good faith even with all evidence points to the contrary.
The Civilized Salon, on the other hand, has an enforced "civility" that goes beyond what's normally expected on the boards. But because it's the same topics as the Salon without the expectation of chops-busting, you get veiled attacks. And you get people using motivated reasoning to pretend that perfectly reasonable statements are personal attacks. (Look at the very first Salon topic and how the topic creator ragequit for an example of this.)
The rest of the boards have a loosely enforced civility, which, 80% of which is "Use a trolling emoji when you're trolling." Which is fine for general discussion on this website.
The lesson we should take from the Salon is that it's a failed experiment. Enforcing that kind of civility is never going to work. If we want to create a no-jokes, serious discussion space, we should start from scratch.
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@bobjanova said in Every post has a popcorn button! (Was: creating a thread is so expensive):
Garage in particular just sounds like a place to have what could be sensible discussions in an aggressive and private manner; could those topics not be discussed civilly in a Salon thread instead? What value does Garage actually have?
You seem to have the "collective understanding", which is what I thought too, but it's different from what I've seen and experienced.
Clarification on these restricted-access places will come soon! As will re-opening the application process. As will defining the application process
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@GuyWhoKilledBear said in Every post has a popcorn button! (Was: creating a thread is so expensive):
The lesson we should take from the Salon is that it's a failed experiment.
Actually from everything I've seen and studied, it's almost there. The biggest problem was going in there with the wrong mindset (debating/arguing vs rationalizing your viewpoint / understanding others) with some poor (but unintentional) written communication. More to come on this, too, when we reopen the restricted access places.
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@GuyWhoKilledBear said in Every post has a popcorn button! (Was: creating a thread is so expensive):
The kind of topics you see in the Garage can't actually be discussed in the Salon, because the rule in the Garage is that you have to assume good faith.
I would say it is the other way around good fellow. In the Salon one would expect to actually read what is written and not read more into it. Sensible discussion is done on middle ground not at the extremities.
In the garage it's a give ... don't like guns? your a leftist commie banning all guns. your uncle took you to a gun range once? you are planning the next mass shooting. conclusions fly off way further then what was uttered and are enforced with iron ideology.
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@Luhmann said in Every post has a popcorn button! (Was: creating a thread is so expensive):
@GuyWhoKilledBear said in Every post has a popcorn button! (Was: creating a thread is so expensive):
The kind of topics you see in the Garage can't actually be discussed in the Salon, because the rule in the Garage is that you have to assume good faith.
I would say it is the other way around good fellow. In the Salon one would expect to actually read what is written and not read more into it.
That's the way around that I said. In the Garage, you're supposed to read what it actually says, PLUS good faith that the other user didn't type into the box on the website.
In the garage it's a give ... don't like guns? your a leftist commie banning all guns. your uncle took you to a gun range once? you are planning the next mass shooting. conclusions fly off way further then what was uttered and are enforced with iron ideology.
Do you hate leftist commies who want to ban all the guns?
The real life ones? I do. But the ones on this website, who are at minimum half-shitposting? That's a different story. Those guys are cool.
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@bobjanova said in Every post has a popcorn button! (Was: creating a thread is so expensive):
On this bar analogy - it's more like a members' club with a public bar, but quite a bit of the social interaction happens in the private rooms (from what I understand, as I'm not in those rooms) of the Lounge and Garage. (Hey, they even have room like names to help the analogy!)
Not saying that's a problem - both private rooms have good reason to be private - but it does look cliquey. Garage in particular just sounds like a place to have what could be sensible discussions in an aggressive and private manner; could those topics not be discussed civilly in a Salon thread instead? What value does Garage actually have?
Garage is more like a fight club, that smells like vomit and piss
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@GuyWhoKilledBear said in Every post has a popcorn button! (Was: creating a thread is so expensive):
That's the way around that I said.
Uh no. In the garage you read half a post, grab out half a sentence and start hammering on that one point. No good faith involved in the process.
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@Luhmann said in [Every post has a popcorn button! (Was: creating a thread is so expensive)]
Uh no. In the garage you read half a post, grab out half a sentence and start hammering on that one point. No good faith involved in the process.
Isn't that just the Internet ...
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@bobjanova
Yes, goal of the Salon is to discuss it in good faith and without slurs and name calling.
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@Luhmann said in Every post has a popcorn button! (Was: creating a thread is so expensive):
@bobjanova
Yes, goal of the Salon is to discuss it in good faith and without slurs and name calling.That should just be the rest of the forum.
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@loopback0
he said sitting in between signatures that called him stupid and boosted about punching a kid for being a dick
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@GuyWhoKilledBear said in Every post has a popcorn button! (Was: creating a thread is so expensive):
Do you hate leftist commies who want to ban all the guns?
Murder, rape, and jaywalking?
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@PleegWat said in Every post has a popcorn button! (Was: creating a thread is so expensive):
Murder, rape, and jaywalking?
At the same time?
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@Luhmann said in Every post has a popcorn button! (Was: creating a thread is so expensive):
@GuyWhoKilledBear said in Every post has a popcorn button! (Was: creating a thread is so expensive):
That's the way around that I said.
Uh no. In the garage you read half a post, grab out half a sentence and start hammering on that one point. No good faith involved in the process.
Oddly enough, I've had more good-faith, honest disagreement, productive conversations in the Garage than in the Salon. Or even in the main part of the forum. The parts of the Garage that leak out are the nasty parts, most of what goes on is good faith + good-natured ribbing and memeing. Most of the real hostility is directed to the people being quoted (from other sources).
There are exceptions--certain people who just hate/despise other people and make mean-spirited personal attacks. And those who go on long, line-by-line fisking of each others, which just makes things unreadable.
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@GuyWhoKilledBear said in Every post has a popcorn button! (Was: creating a thread is so expensive):
Garage
good faith
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@loopback0 said in Every post has a popcorn button! (Was: creating a thread is so expensive):
@PleegWat said in Every post has a popcorn button! (Was: creating a thread is so expensive):
Murder, rape, and jaywalking?
At the same time?
Hey don't kink shame...