Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!
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@boomzilla said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@Bulb said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
The article even seems to acknowledge that, but then goes on a long rant about masks anyway.
People like to believe that they can have power over events.
Preferably using something that is not too disrupting to their normal life, yes.
Except with masks they don't either. According to the narrative coming from Korea and Japan and China, masks are worn by those not feeling well to limit them spreading it, not by you to prevent getting it. So you still rely on other people being considerate.
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@Bulb said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@boomzilla said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@Bulb said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
The article even seems to acknowledge that, but then goes on a long rant about masks anyway.
People like to believe that they can have power over events.
Preferably using something that is not too disrupting to their normal life, yes.
Except with masks they don't either. According to the narrative coming from Korea and Japan and China, masks are worn by those not feeling well to limit them spreading it, not by you to prevent getting it. So you still rely on other people being considerate.
Close enough for public health misinformation.
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@LaoC said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
The countries keeping Omicron deaths down have something in common and it's very simple
There is "a really quite important cultural difference" in Asia that epidemiologists suggest is having a dramatic impact on their daily rate of COVID-19 deaths.
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@Bulb said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
According to the narrative coming from Korea and Japan and China, masks are worn by those not feeling well to limit them spreading it, not by you to prevent getting it.
I'm told that it used to be both, at least pre-COVID (unsure how it has changed since). Wearing masks, at least in bigger cities and crowded places, wasn't limited to people feeling slightly unwell.
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@cvi No, it wasn't. Many people wear them just in case. But the primary reason was always catching the stuff you exhale.
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@Bulb I did run into a couple of people in Japan who were wearing one because they couldn't afford to catch a flu and thought that every little helps. This was back in... 2018, I think?
Japan has also had their share of people who just want to hide their face. Following someone around in a scarf and mask, to masquerade as suffering from a cold, is a TV trope around there.
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@Bulb Whether useful or not, reasons for wearing a mask seem to include at least air pollution, privacy/keeping people at a distance, and just out of politeness or as a fashion accessory. Fancy designed masks existed long before COVID.
I knew one couple that actually had different sets of masks for when they felt a slight cold or otherwise ill (but still went to work etc) and for "normal" days.
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@cvi said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
air pollution
A very good reason for wearing a mask outside in large Chinese cities. The pollution is bad enough to damage electronics in some places.
Fancy designed masks existed long before COVID.
I was wondering how we found those sold online so soon after the panic started in China. TIL.
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@cvi said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
I'm told that it used to be both, at least pre-COVID
I used to see a lot of that among the Chinese students at work. Part of it might have been a habit born of growing up in a more polluted environment. At the very least, they consider it far more socially acceptable.
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@acrow said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@cvi said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
air pollution
A very good reason for wearing a mask outside in large Chinese cities. The pollution is bad enough to damage electronics in some places.
As masks are obviously ineffective against toxic gases, they do have to make a significant difference wrt inhaling aerosols—otherwise, how would they work against pollution?
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@LaoC said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@acrow said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@cvi said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
air pollution
A very good reason for wearing a mask outside in large Chinese cities. The pollution is bad enough to damage electronics in some places.
As masks are obviously ineffective against toxic gases, they do have to make a significant difference wrt inhaling aerosols—otherwise, how would they work against pollution?
Depends on the pollution? Some is particulate. Placebo effects are real, too.
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@boomzilla said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@LaoC said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@acrow said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@cvi said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
air pollution
A very good reason for wearing a mask outside in large Chinese cities. The pollution is bad enough to damage electronics in some places.
As masks are obviously ineffective against toxic gases, they do have to make a significant difference wrt inhaling aerosols—otherwise, how would they work against pollution?
Depends on the pollution? Some is particulate.
AKA aerosol, that was my point.
Placebo effects are real, too.
I wouldn't call placebo effects "a very good reason" but OK.
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@LaoC I didn't say that just any mask would actually make a difference. And the only mask I voluntarily wore did actually filter gases too. But obviously that level of masking is out of reach of most residents in large Asian cities.
I'd have to read up whether it was the gases or the particulates that were corroding data centers before they added filters (like most homes have that can afford them). Depending on the area, there can be all kinds of stuff in the air.
As an extreme example, if you were to live near some ship scrapyards in India, you'd be inhaling asbestos.From the article photos, I'd say the masks they wear in wherever in Asia those photos were taken, don't filter aerosols to the extent that it'd make a difference. Stops spittle of the exhale, maybe. But actual aerosols? A good rule of thumb is taht a mask capable of stopping aerosols is rated for spray-painting work.
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@LaoC said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@boomzilla said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@LaoC said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@acrow said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@cvi said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
air pollution
A very good reason for wearing a mask outside in large Chinese cities. The pollution is bad enough to damage electronics in some places.
As masks are obviously ineffective against toxic gases, they do have to make a significant difference wrt inhaling aerosols—otherwise, how would they work against pollution?
Depends on the pollution? Some is particulate.
AKA aerosol, that was my point.
I would not call particulate pollution an aerosol.
Placebo effects are real, too.
I wouldn't call placebo effects "a very good reason" but OK.
But generally the people experiencing them think something else is going on and they probably consider that a "very good reason."
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@acrow said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@LaoC I didn't say that just any mask would actually make a difference. And the only mask I voluntarily wore did actually filter gases too. But obviously that level of masking is out of reach of most residents in large Asian cities.
I didn't read @cvi's
reasons for wearing a mask seem to include at least air pollution
as "reasons for wearing an activated-charcoal or similar respirator", because that's obviously not what most people in Asia do.
I'd have to read up whether it was the gases or the particulates that were corroding data centers before they added filters (like most homes have that can afford them). Depending on the area, there can be all kinds of stuff in the air.
As an extreme example, if you were to live near some ship scrapyards in India, you'd be inhaling asbestos.KN95 is just fine against that and I suppose a well-fitting surgical mask would do as well.
From the article photos, I'd say the masks they wear in wherever in Asia those photos were taken, don't filter aerosols to the extent that it'd make a difference. Stops spittle of the exhale, maybe. But actual aerosols? A good rule of thumb is taht a mask capable of stopping aerosols is rated for spray-painting work.
No. This is exactly what KN95/FFP2 certification tests for. The difference between those and masks for spray paining is that paint often has oily aerosols that KN95 doesn't work well for, and creates toxic vapors that need adsorption filtering.
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@boomzilla said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@LaoC said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@boomzilla said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@LaoC said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@acrow said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@cvi said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
air pollution
A very good reason for wearing a mask outside in large Chinese cities. The pollution is bad enough to damage electronics in some places.
As masks are obviously ineffective against toxic gases, they do have to make a significant difference wrt inhaling aerosols—otherwise, how would they work against pollution?
Depends on the pollution? Some is particulate.
AKA aerosol, that was my point.
I would not call particulate pollution an aerosol.
There are solid and liquid aerosols, that's the definition.Placebo effects are real, too.
I wouldn't call placebo effects "a very good reason" but OK.
But generally the people experiencing them think something else is going on and they probably consider that a "very good reason."
I wouldn't impute @acrow to think so.
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@LaoC said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
and I suppose a well-fitting surgical mask would do as well.
They don't. Most surgical masks are not rated for that. Masks for surgery are designed to contain flying droplets. They're not usually even that well fitted, because the surgeon needs to breathe, too.
This is exactly what KN95/FFP2 certification tests for.
FFP2 only requires 99% filtration, down to a certain particle size. 1% of what you might be breathing in during a cramped bus ride is easily enough to infect you 10 times over.
And droplets capable of carrying corona have been shown to be smaller than what the standard requires anyway. A lot is on the manufacturer.@LaoC said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
I wouldn't impute @acrow to think so.
I never expected that mask to protect me from Corona. Because for that we'd need decontamination showers before taking the mask off. Touching the outer surface of the mask before eating negates any benefit it may have had.
But I simply refuse to wear a mask that has been shown not to work as advertised. And public transportation mandated masks. So I used an effective mask. Even if all it ever stopped was smells.
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@acrow said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
This is exactly what KN95/FFP2 certification tests for.
FFP2 only requires 99% filtration, down to a certain particle size. 1% of what you might be breathing in during a cramped bus ride is easily enough to infect you 10 times over.
And droplets capable of carrying corona have been shown to be smaller than what the standard requires anyway. A lot is on the manufacturer.We were talking aerosols in general and city pollution in particular.
@LaoC said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
I wouldn't impute @acrow to think so.
I never expected that mask to protect me from Corona. Because for that we'd need decontamination showers before taking the mask off. Touching the outer surface of the mask before eating negates any benefit it may have had.
But I simply refuse to wear a mask that has been shown not to work as advertised. And public transportation mandated masks. So I used an effective mask. Even if all it ever stopped was smells.But you didn't call air pollution a very good reason for wearing a mask outside in large Chinese cities because you wanted to promote placebos, did you?
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@LaoC said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
But you didn't call air pollution a very good reason for wearing a mask outside in large Chinese cities because you wanted to promote placebos, did you?
Maybe they did. And if so, you may as well give up, as their chess is
n+m-dimensional.
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@LaoC said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@acrow said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
This is exactly what KN95/FFP2 certification tests for.
FFP2 only requires 99% filtration, down to a certain particle size. 1% of what you might be breathing in during a cramped bus ride is easily enough to infect you 10 times over.
And droplets capable of carrying corona have been shown to be smaller than what the standard requires anyway. A lot is on the manufacturer.We were talking aerosols in general and city pollution in particular.
You're the one who said water aerosols vs. oily aerosols. I expect general issue pollution from old cars and similar to be oily. But at the same time, pollution comes in all sizes. Reducing the amount you intake matters, since the human body is capable of getting rid of a surprising array of stuff. It may allow your body to keep up with the intake instead of building up.
...I remember an article about someone sweeping up some dust from the side of a freeway in the U.S., and extracting precious metals from it. The metals were from car catalyzators. But the ability to sweep the dust into a pan suggests some things about the particle size.
@LaoC said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
I wouldn't impute @acrow to think so.
I never expected that mask to protect me from Corona. Because for that we'd need decontamination showers before taking the mask off. Touching the outer surface of the mask before eating negates any benefit it may have had.
But I simply refuse to wear a mask that has been shown not to work as advertised. And public transportation mandated masks. So I used an effective mask. Even if all it ever stopped was smells.But you didn't call air pollution a very good reason for wearing a mask outside in large Chinese cities because you wanted to promote placebos, did you?
No. Depending on the type of pollution, wearing FFP2/FFP3 may have a large effect, or no real effect at all. It depends on the type of pollution. But considering the above about road dust, I would assume that an FFP2 mask filters some of it. And FFP3 some more.
Some of the pollution in Beijing is toxic gases. So wearing a full gas mask has an effect in the long term. But you'd have to read a study on long-term low-level exposure to the specific toxins to figure out how much of a difference.
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@acrow said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
And public transportation mandated masks. So I used an effective mask. Even if all it ever stopped was smells.
Depending on where you live, that might be more than sufficient reason for wearing a mask on public transit.
I remember reading about a jurisdiction (NYC?) that actually banned effective masks. (Probably not intentionally.) It required that masks be made of cloth or paper(? whatever the politicians thought surgical masks are made of, I guess). Plastic masks were prohibited. Charitably, I will assume this was intended to prohibit plastic face shields that don't filter anything at all, but the effect was to also ban real respirators with actually effective filter cartridges.
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@acrow said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
You're the one who said water aerosols vs. oily aerosols. I expect general issue pollution from old cars and similar to be oily. But at the same time, pollution comes in all sizes. Reducing the amount you intake matters, since the human body is capable of getting rid of a surprising array of stuff. It may allow your body to keep up with the intake instead of building up.
...I remember an article about someone sweeping up some dust from the side of a freeway in the U.S., and extracting precious metals from it. The metals were from car catalyzators. But the ability to sweep the dust into a pan suggests some things about the particle size.
Electrostatic effects make that a more complex calculation.
No. Depending on the type of pollution, wearing FFP2/FFP3 may have a large effect, or no real effect at all. It depends on the type of pollution. But considering the above about road dust, I would assume that an FFP2 mask filters some of it. And FFP3 some more.
Some of the pollution in Beijing is toxic gases. So wearing a full gas mask has an effect in the long term. But you'd have to read a study on long-term low-level exposure to the specific toxins to figure out how much of a difference.
If I remember right, some Chinese cities would be very dusty even without manmade pollution due to dust blowing in from the Gobi desert and Mongolia. Beijing might well be one of those cities. Then you also have a lot of particulates (of various sizes) in the air from vehicles, industry and some types of of home cooking facilities. Given all that, masking against particulates seems like a good plan anyway. Yes, the body can clear most of them given time, but why make that system work harder than it has to?
If this also helps against airborne diseases with just minor filter tweaks, so much the better.
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@dkf said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
If I remember right, some Chinese cities would be very dusty even without manmade pollution due to dust blowing in from the Gobi desert and Mongolia. Beijing might well be one of those cities.
No. It's just in a bowl surrounded by mountains, which traps the smog in. I assume the same mountains will keep the dust out.
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@acrow The point is that the dust is, long term, migrating from the Gobi to fill in the Yellow Sea, temporarily forming the loess which is the foundation of quite a lot of north China's agriculture along the way. The process could be slowed down a bit by planting lots of trees and giving up on agriculture in the region, but ain't nobody gonna do that. The process is driven by basic erosion in the arid areas north of the Tibetan plateau, and the way the prevailing winds push that down towards the east. The dust plumes can reach a long way across the Pacific, sometimes even to the US and Canada when conditions are right.
And yes, Beijing also has all the classic problems of any big city in a bowl (so a temperature inversion can concentrate things). Both London and Mexico City have those issues too, and I'm sure many other places do too.
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@dkf That's good to know.
And yes, Beijing of today seems to have a lot of similarities to London of, what, the 1950s? I'd expect a look at London's public health records of that era to be somewhat predictive of trends in Beijing today.
...Or what they were before Corona threw a spanner in anyway.
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@acrow said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
And yes, Beijing of today seems to have a lot of similarities to London of, what, the 1950s? I'd expect a look at London's public health records of that era to be somewhat predictive of trends in Beijing today.
London in that period was famous for its smogs caused by the bowl of the hills and the widespread burning of cheap coal for fuel for all sorts of purposes. (Higher grades of coal were reserved for uses which needed it like railway engines, and for export markets to help pay down the whopper loans for WW2.) Things were pretty bad until legislation was passed to clean things up (by forcing the substitution of dirty coal with cleaner fuels, initially https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coke_(fuel) but later oil and gas, as well as electrical heating; power stations were also moved out of the capital). There's something of an issue even now, but it's mostly due to vehicles; either dust from tyres or photochemical smog from various exhausts.
Beijing will have to do something similar I'd guess, but I suppose they'll have to learn that lesson for themselves. Humans aren't too great at learning from others' mistakes (despite being much better at that than most creatures on Earth).
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@dkf I should probably mention that China also heats with coal. Not wood. The area near forests may use some wood. But large cities mostly use coal.
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@acrow said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
But large cities mostly use coal.
The impact that has will depend on whether they've converted it into coke or not. If they haven't, they'll have a huge smoke problem. If they have, those coking plants are well known to be horrendously polluting (albeit usually just locally). Old coke production sites are among the absolutely most polluted industrial sites in the UK even now, despite a lot of money being spent on remediation.
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Strain review: Since I probably got the first type of covid, and now got the latest I figured I'd compare the two.
The first one put me in bed for several days, with heavy sweating and a stubborn cough that didn't give up for months. I felt week for weeks as well.
The current one? Nothing more than a bad cold. I was down and out for 16 hours, after which I started sweating like having a sauna. I feel worn but not completely flat out of energy, and I have an annoying cough, but nothing like the first one. I have only had it for about 3 days now, and it's already on it's way out.
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@Carnage said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
Strain review: Since I probably got the first type of covid, and now got the latest I figured I'd compare the two.
The first one put me in bed for several days, with heavy sweating and a stubborn cough that didn't give up for months. I felt week for weeks as well.
The current one? Nothing more than a bad cold. I was down and out for 16 hours, after which I started sweating like having a sauna. I feel worn but not completely flat out of energy, and I have an annoying cough, but nothing like the first one. I have only had it for about 3 days now, and it's already on it's way out.I do wonder if your first infection provided some immunity to your second, such that your body was able to overcome it more easily.
Many people experienced the first strain as similar to a bad cold. Most people had no symptoms at all.
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@jinpa said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@Carnage said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
Strain review: Since I probably got the first type of covid, and now got the latest I figured I'd compare the two.
The first one put me in bed for several days, with heavy sweating and a stubborn cough that didn't give up for months. I felt week for weeks as well.
The current one? Nothing more than a bad cold. I was down and out for 16 hours, after which I started sweating like having a sauna. I feel worn but not completely flat out of energy, and I have an annoying cough, but nothing like the first one. I have only had it for about 3 days now, and it's already on it's way out.I do wonder if your first infection provided some immunity to your second, such that your body was able to overcome it more easily.
Many people experienced the first strain as similar to a bad cold. Most people had no symptoms at all.
Yeah, it probably did, but then I went and had myself a vaccination to be able to travel internationally, and the vaccinations seems to remove natural immunity and only gives a weak protection for a hole of months so
Everyone I know that got it early got it like a bad flu. The worst part being a lingering cough for months.
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@jinpa said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
I do wonder if your first infection provided some immunity to your second, such that your body was able to overcome it more easily.
That's how the immune system works. Also how vaccines work; they simulate a virus infection, and the actual immunity is granted by your own immune system response. Lasting immunity is usually granted to viruses that are similar to the original infection/vaccination.
Many people experienced the first strain as similar to a bad cold. Most people had no symptoms at all.
As to why some people had a much milder first infection, there has been some research on cross-immunity to Covid-19 form some less-lethal relatives of SARS, IIRC.
On the other hand, Israeli doctors have stated that they can predict how a Covid case will go just from the patient's D-vitamin levels. Turns out much of the modern world is severely deficient, and that vitamin is used by the immune system. So I'd recommend @Carnage get his D levels checked.
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@acrow said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@jinpa said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
I do wonder if your first infection provided some immunity to your second, such that your body was able to overcome it more easily.
That's how the immune system works. Also how vaccines work; they simulate a virus infection, and the actual immunity is granted by your own immune system response. Lasting immunity is usually granted to viruses that are similar to the original infection/vaccination.
Many people experienced the first strain as similar to a bad cold. Most people had no symptoms at all.
As to why some people had a much milder first infection, there has been some research on cross-immunity to Covid-19 form some less-lethal relatives of SARS, IIRC.
On the other hand, Israeli doctors have stated that they can predict how a Covid case will go just from the patient's D-vitamin levels. Turns out much of the modern world is severely deficient, and that vitamin is used by the immune system. So I'd recommend @Carnage get his D levels checked.
I got it during the time of the year when the entire Nordics are vitamin d deficient. I actually get vitamin d supplements to make it less so, but I don't remember if I were eating it at the time. And no, usually i am not vitamin D deficient.
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@acrow said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@jinpa said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
I do wonder if your first infection provided some immunity to your second, such that your body was able to overcome it more easily.
That's how the immune system works. Also how vaccines work; they simulate a virus infection, and the actual immunity is granted by your own immune system response. Lasting immunity is usually granted to viruses that are similar to the original infection/vaccination.
Yes, but…
@Carnage said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
vaccinations seems to remove natural immunity
I don't think vaccination can destroy the natural immunity completely, but it can interfere with it the wrong way. There are two basic kinds of specific immunity (with many subtypes)—antibody and cytotoxic. The antibody type can respond to anything, but the cytotoxic type is specifically against intracelular parasites, i.e. viruses, and is more efficient against them. And due to limited resources if the body mounts more of one, it can't mount as much of the other.
Now the vaccines seem to be triggering a lot of the antibody response, but that isn't as efficient, so it can reduce the strength of the naturally obtained cytotoxic type response.
The other part is that the antibody response can only target whatever is on the surface of the viruses, and most of the vaccines don't carry the other bits of the virus anyway. But the cytotoxic lymphocytes observe the virus in the making, so they can recognize it's internal components as well. Which means that a new variant may evade one type of the immunity learned on the previous variant, but not the other type.
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@Bulb let's not forget that there is some mechanic by which some viruses can make the immune system forget how to fight things it used to know how to fight.
If these vaccines accidentally tickles this mechanic, they certainly can remove natural immunity. I haven't been interested enough to find out if it's actually happening, but there has been a bunch of stuff that's said that the vaccinations seem to negatively impact natural immunity.
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@Bulb I've (over-)simplified it when explaining to my relatives:
"The vaccine has some of the bits wrong. And since omicron came around, it has even more bits off from the virus. Adding more wrong bits just trains the body wrong."
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@Carnage said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
some viruses can make the immune system forget how to fight things it used to know how to fight
That's the thing that—beyond what I wrote above and of course HIV that can target the lymphocytes themselves—goes against my understanding of how it works.
@Carnage said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
bunch of stuff that's said that the vaccinations seem to negatively impact natural immunity
Negatively impact I agree. I just don't think it means completely remove. They teach the body a worse way to fight the infection than the way it learned naturally, which makes it, on the next infection, waste resources on the worse way instead of focusing them on the better way. Which can also impede learning the better way later.
@acrow said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@Bulb I've (over-)simplified it when explaining to my relatives:
"The vaccine has some of the bits wrong. And since omicron came around, it has even more bits off from the virus. Adding more wrong bits just trains the body wrong."I would probably add that it also only has some bits and they don't seem to be the most useful ones.
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@Bulb said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@Carnage said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
bunch of stuff that's said that the vaccinations seem to negatively impact natural immunity
Negatively impact I agree. I just don't think it means completely remove. They teach the body a worse way to fight the infection than the way it learned naturally, which makes it, on the next infection, waste resources on the worse way instead of focusing them on the better way. Which can also impede learning the better way later.
@Bulb said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@acrow said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@Bulb I've (over-)simplified it when explaining to my relatives:
"The vaccine has some of the bits wrong. And since omicron came around, it has even more bits off from the virus. Adding more wrong bits just trains the body wrong."I would probably add that it also only has some bits and they don't seem to be the most useful ones.
Since I've just dug up the article again, yes, recent research seems to agree.
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@acrow said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
That's how the immune system works. Also how vaccines work; they simulate a virus infection, and the actual immunity is granted by your own immune system response. Lasting immunity is usually granted to viruses that are similar to the original infection/vaccination.
It also depends on exactly what viral components the immune system is picking up, and which parts of the immune system are activated. Some diseases like 'flu tend to have their more-variable parts targeted and so immunity only lasts a few months; others have highly-conserved parts targeted and you get effectively-lifetime immunity to those. Covid appears to be more in the former category than the latter, alas.
Which wouldn't matter too much if it wasn't for the ugly stingers in the tail of lethality toward some groups (especially the elderly, even now) and long covid in an appreciable minority of cases. Those make just letting things rip through every few months economically and socially unpalatable.
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@dkf said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
Which wouldn't matter too much if it wasn't for the ugly stingers in the tail of lethality toward some groups (especially the elderly, even now) and long covid in an appreciable minority of cases. Those make just letting things rip through every few months economically and socially unpalatable.
Thing is, we've been trying the other way for two years now, and lethality and long covid is exactly what we got.
How about we try something different, and see whether it's better, worse, the same?
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@lolwhat said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
Garbage numbers by garbage reporting pushing an agenda. 1
Tried to track this down in the German news, the newspapers likely to shit on the government at any possible time didn't blow it up like they would if this was what's claimed. Search results only bring this one guy's blog where they personally "interpret" the numbers from a data request, and another news site that's easily as garbage as the English one1. I didn't verify that the numbers they present weren't manipulated from the data request, but assuming they're true I can give you a layman analysis that's just as good as that guy's non-medical analysis:
Only two of the four codes used are actually signifcant in number (although it really doesn't make a difference anyway):
T881 – Complications after vaccination (immunization), not classified elsewhere
(Snippet from more details I googled)U12.9 – Adverse reactions to the use of COVID-19 vaccines, unspecified.
(Snippet from more details I googled)So that's basically where you would put either "your arm is red" or "something happened" cases. Basically, a bunch of people figured they feel tired or otherwise not too well and went to the doctor so they'd get 2 or 3 sick days out of it. Nothing surprising. Contrary to the claim, doesn't imply they "underwent medical treatment", either. Counting this as "serious side effects" is ridiculous.
Now let's look at their other claims directly linked:
Even the health ministry in Germany has admitted that 1:5000 injections lead to hospitalization, permanent disability, or death – a very serious revelation, but probably a very conservative estimate.
Follow that link and the site says (emphasis mine)
According to official figures, tens of thousands of people have already been hospitalized, disabled or killed in Germany alone so far. ‘Mild’ side effects for which people had to see a doctor, such as menstrual problems, heart problems, or seizures, are not included in the figures. In addition, it only includes cases reported by doctors.
Really? Because the original tweet from the health ministry actually says:
0,2 Verdachtsmeldungen pro 1.000 Impfdosen
Verdacht auf Nebenwirkungen durch die Corona-Schutzimpfung? Wenden Sie sich an Ihre Ärztin oder Ihren Arzt und melden Sie Ihre Symptome dem Paul-Ehrlich-Institut mithilfe des COVID-19-Meldeformulars.
Die Melderate bezieht sich auf alle Verdachtsmeldungen, d. h. ein ursächlicher Zusammenhang mit der Impfung ist mit der Verdachtsmeldung noch nicht bestätigt, es wird erstmal ein zeitlicher Zusammenhang festgestellt.
There's a stark difference between "1 in 5000 leads to hospitalization, permanent injury, or death" and "1 in 5000 people suspected a reaction and consulted their doctor".
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Your site directly gives me bottom of the barrel garage shit like this:
Go ahead and defend that kind of crap, but do it
.The German equivalent reporting this crap has the main categories "News, Corona, Politics" and from their links, probably wants you to buy their magic health alternatives instead:
The only thing "unfiltered" there is their brain damage. For reference:
Among the topics addressed by Kopp's books are ancient astronauts, ufology, the phantom time hypothesis, creationism, astrology, geomancy, Germanic mythology, Islamism, Freiwirtschaft and "gender and gender mainstreaming“.
No, this is not a joke and not misleading either.
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@topspin What's the date all vaccinated people will die, currently? Now that half of us have been reported dead already I seem to have lost track.
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@LaoC said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@topspin What's the date all vaccinated people will die, currently? Now that half of us have been reported dead already I seem to have lost track.
September.
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@topspin said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
Go ahead and defend that kind of crap, but do it
.Dude, take a chill pill.
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@lolwhat said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
IU will present Dr. Anthony Fauci with leadership award in webinar Monday
The award will be presented on White’s 50th birthday, honors commitment to HIV/AIDS prevention
He certainly led the pandemic, through his funding of gain-of-function research at the Wuhan lab.
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@acrow said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@cvi Unless you get there by euthanasia, in which case you do need to be vaccinated first.
https://nationalpost.com/news/covid-19-vaccine-now-mandatory-to-get-euthanized-in-germany
Sounds like another good reason not to get vaccinated. They can't euthanize you if you're not vaccinated.
Original antigenic sin - Wikipedia
