Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!
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@topspin said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
Well, the data for 2016 to 2020 is clearly wrong
Is it? Where is the explanation for that?
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@boomzilla said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@topspin said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
Well, the data for 2016 to 2020 is clearly wrong
Is it? Where is the explanation for that?
That they have requested data for people who had insurance in 2021. How could that data possibly be right?
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@topspin said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@boomzilla said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@topspin said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
Well, the data for 2016 to 2020 is clearly wrong
Is it? Where is the explanation for that?
That they have requested data for people who had insurance in 2021. How could that data possibly be right?
I dunno...I suppose multiple requests can be made. My point is that if you're assuming they only have data for 2021 but they have charts for data before that about people dying, I'm going to be skeptical about your claim that they don't have that data.
Or perhaps those pre-2021 numbers were published somewhere else and they're comparing 2021 against those previously published numbers.
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@boomzilla said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
Or perhaps those pre-2021 numbers were published somewhere else and they're comparing 2021 against those previously published numbers.
The way it works in Poland is that death statistics form part of the standard national datasets that get compiled by our Statistical Office and published once compiled. For Poland, I know exactly where to find the sort of data under discussion, and I suspect most European countries are similar (I've only got experience with the UK, however).
The problem with these national datasets is that they take a long time to go throught the compile and publish process, which means roughly a year-or-two delay between period close and data availability. Therefore, if you want to look at what was happening last year, you'll probably need to find an alternative source.
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@boomzilla said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@topspin said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@boomzilla said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@topspin said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
Well, the data for 2016 to 2020 is clearly wrong
Is it? Where is the explanation for that?
That they have requested data for people who had insurance in 2021. How could that data possibly be right?
I dunno...I suppose multiple requests can be made. My point is that if you're assuming they only have data for 2021 but they have charts for data before that about people dying, I'm going to be skeptical about your claim that they don't have that data.
They have made multiple requests, as is explained above, with the other requests conditioned on the first. That is the data that is being discussed and that the graph consists of.
Or perhaps those pre-2021 numbers were published somewhere else
Of course. You can look them up (if you dig through pages after pages of shit) and see that they don't fit with that graph at all:
Download page:
Pos-Nr. ICD-10 total male female R99 Sonstige ungenau oder n.n.bez. Todesursachen 24065 14464 9601 Pos-Nr. ICD-10 total male female R99 Sonstige ungenau oder n.n.bez. Todesursachen 22208 13259 8949
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@topspin said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
ICD-10
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@topspin said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
Of course. You can look them up (if you dig through pages after pages of shit) and see that they don't fit with that graph at all:
Ah. That's actually a good criticism. Should have lead with that.
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@GOG said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
The problem with these national datasets is that they take a long time to go throught the compile and publish process, which means roughly a year-or-two delay between period close and data availability. Therefore, if you want to look at what was happening last year, you'll probably need to find an alternative source.
Having seen how medical data was gathered during covid, my advice is to take all of it and flush it down the toilet. It's completely useless anyway.
[edit] I mean in Poland, I have no knowledge about it elsewhere [/edit]
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@MrL In the case of fatality data specifically, my distrust is moderated by the fact that a death is a death, so we can be fairly certain that the general details (age, sex) are correct, and that when it comes to the medical aspects I'm less interested in "how much?" than "how has it changed?"
So that, for example, if I see something like the chart under discussion, where suddenly there is a major leap in "garbage codes", then I can see right away that there's something funky happening. Only question is: what?
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@GOG said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
Only question is: what?
Not sure if it's possible to tell. How will you know how many of anything was caused by
- covid
- not covid
- gutting of healthcare during covid
- vaccinesIntroduction of vaccines is a known timepoint, sure. But distribution of vaccines was not uniform in speed or geography. Plus laws and attitudes of different groups to covid/vaccines was also changing.
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@MrL said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
Not sure if it's possible to tell. How will you know how many of anything was caused by
Typically, by eliminating possibilities.
Here's an oldie from early in the pandemic. It was noticed that in NY, I believe, hospitalisations for acute cardiac symptoms (heart attacks, IOW) dropped significantly with the start of the pandemic.
Covid prevents heart attacks? Well... no.
Turns out that the decrease in hospitalisations wasn't actually accompanied by a corresponding decrease in cardiac mortality. I believe it was the opposite, in fact.
Turns out, the parsimonious explanation was that people simply weren't getting treated for heart attacks - either because they were afraid to go to the hospital, or because hospitals discouraged it (not enough data here to tell) - and dying of it, because untreated cardiac issues kill rather quickly.
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Right, I know how it's done in normal circumstances and how you can filter for different kinds of events. I'm wondering how can we have any hope of getting reliable results when we know that the data gathering itself was both actively sabotaged and the method changed overtime.
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@MrL We adjust our approach to account for the circumstances, not unlike an error detection and correction mechanism. If we get results that are obviously wrong, for whatever reason, we compare them to other data and see if we can construct a consistent world-model out of that (and, if so, verify that against a different dataset).
For example, that the commonly used non-pharmaceutical interventions against Covid don't work can be readily shown from just the adoption and disease spread data - if you're getting the same results with and without the intervention, it clearly isn't doing what it's supposed to.
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@GOG said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@MrL We adjust our approach to account for the circumstances, not unlike an error detection and correction mechanism. If we get results that are obviously wrong, for whatever reason, we compare them to other data and see if we can construct a consistent world-model out of that (and, if so, verify that against a different dataset).
You can detect local errors and correct for uniform systemic bias. You can't for data gathering system actively falsifying data and doing it in different ways over time. There are limits to statistical magic.
For example, that the commonly used non-pharmaceutical interventions against Covid don't work can be readily shown from just the adoption and disease spread data - if you're getting the same results with and without the intervention, it clearly isn't doing what it's supposed to.
Nah-uh, they work wonderfully, it's those damn antivaxxers wearing them wrong.
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@antiquarian said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
Yes, Virginia, there is a Left Garage.
Pointing out that a data-set is complete nonsense is political now?
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@topspin said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@boomzilla said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@topspin said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
Well, the data for 2016 to 2020 is clearly wrong
Is it? Where is the explanation for that?
That they have requested data for people who had insurance in 2021. How could that data possibly be right?
The old German folks who coined the saying "paper is patient" obviously didn't know what a database is.
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@topspin said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
Pointing out that a data-set is complete nonsense is political now?
Pro-tip: anything that touches politics becomes political. The smart move is to acknowledge it from the get go, and work from there.
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@topspin said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
Pointing out that a data-set is complete nonsense is political now?
No, but calling people proto-Nazis is.
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@antiquarian said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@topspin said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
Pointing out that a data-set is complete nonsense is political now?
No, but calling people proto-Nazis is.
Who exactly do you think I've called that?
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@topspin said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
Who exactly do you think I've called that?
I'm not sure why that would matter. Are you going for the "but they really are Nazis" defense?
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@antiquarian said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@topspin said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
Who exactly do you think I've called that?
I'm not sure why that would matter.
You would have a point if I had said that about the author of the article, which I have not.
What I did write was merely informational, like calling Reagan a Republican.
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@topspin said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
What I did write was merely informational, like calling Reagan a Republican.
Called it!
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@antiquarian said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@topspin said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
What I did write was merely informational, like calling Reagan a Republican.
Called it!
Do you contest that? Do you actually know anything about German political parties?
E: fixed wording
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@topspin So you admit it's political. The prosecution rests.
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@antiquarian said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@topspin So you admit it's political. The prosecution rests.
Is calling Reagan a Republican political?
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@topspin A more detailed explanation would belong in the garage so you can ask there if you're interested.
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@antiquarian said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@topspin A more detailed explanation would belong in the garage so you can ask there if you're interested.
Since you refuse to answer anything showing that you know what I’m talking about, that’d be fruitless.
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@MrL said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@GOG said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@MrL We adjust our approach to account for the circumstances, not unlike an error detection and correction mechanism. If we get results that are obviously wrong, for whatever reason, we compare them to other data and see if we can construct a consistent world-model out of that (and, if so, verify that against a different dataset).
You can detect local errors and correct for uniform systemic bias. You can't for data gathering system actively falsifying data and doing it in different ways over time. There are limits to statistical magic.
There's always using statistics that someone didn't think to mangle yet. Like, say, Ticker-Guy's reading of labor statistics in the U.S., and their "disappearing generation".
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@dkf said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@acrow said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
Unless the muscle tissue absorbs all of the mRNA, everything injected will make its way into the blood vessels; the body has no other long-distance transport mechanism.
I think it has others, but the vascular system is the main one and the only relevant one in this case. The lymphatic system doesn't do the sort of transport of materials that would be relevant here, and nerves transport signals rather than material.
… the lymphatic system better be relevant in this case, because that's where the dendritic cells lie in the lymphatic nodes in wait for pathogenic proteins so they can order the lymphocytes to fight. But anything that gets past them is still dumped into the subclavian veins just before the heart anyway.
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@topspin said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
calling Reagan a Republican.
Unfortunately, political, as he is also validly referenced as a Democrat, football coach, chimp sidekick, SAG head, war hero, doddering smilebot for social poison, and iirc space ranger.
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@topspin said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@antiquarian said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@topspin A more detailed explanation would belong in the garage so you can ask there if you're interested.
Since you refuse to answer anything showing that you know what I’m talking about, that’d be fruitless.
I can supply a detailed explanation in a topic to be agreed upon. There is no guarantee or likelihood of salience.
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@topspin said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
Do you actually know anything about German political parties?
Hahaha nobody does. Nazis, right? All Nazis?
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@antiquarian said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@topspin said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
Who exactly do you think I've called that?
I'm not sure why that would matter. Are you going for the "but they really are Nazis" defense?
Grabbing for a Godwin is not a valid Godwin. Go back 2 posts.
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@topspin said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@antiquarian said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@topspin said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
Pointing out that a data-set is complete nonsense is political now?
No, but calling people proto-Nazis is.
Who exactly do you think I've called that?
Me. You may be correct, but I would argue not. Time will tell.
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@GOG said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@topspin said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
Pointing out that a data-set is complete nonsense is political now?
Pro-tip: anything that touches politics becomes political. The smart move is to acknowledge it from the get go, and work from there.
Not to professional standards. Anything and everything touches politics. There is no sanity in precensoring. The goal is to make a nice, consecutive ball of mud for the Jeff.
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@antiquarian said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
Yes, Virginia, there is a Left Garage.
In North Congo.
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@MrL said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@topspin said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@MrL said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@topspin said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
association of physicians says
I'd take word from association of hookers and pimps before them.
That's where the data comes from.
That's a bit harsh for hookers. They are not considered respectable, but what did they do to you that you compare them to insurance companies?
They won't take my HSA card, that's a pisser.
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@Gribnit said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@antiquarian said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
Yes, Virginia, there is a Left Garage.
In North Congo.
You're North Congo.
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@lolwhat TL;DW. Can you give a summary?
I’m going to assume it basically says “China has millions of cases while pretending it has zero”?
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@boomzilla said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
Ah. That's actually a good criticism. Should have lead with that.
in his defense, he did (well, apart from the "you can look them up" part):
@topspin said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
In fact, the development of the annual crude diagnosis prevalence after evaluation of the complete SHI-accredited physician billing data for the years 2012 to 2022 shows no conspicuities for the individual diagnosis codes highlighted by the AfD (ICD-10 codes R96-R98, I46.1, I46.9) in the entire period. There is no contradiction with the data used by the AfD.
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Chicken Egg Yolk Antibodies (IgYs) block the binding of multiple SARS-CoV-2 spike protein variants to human ACE2
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@boomzilla said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
Chicken Egg Yolk Antibodies (IgYs) block the binding of multiple SARS-CoV-2 spike protein variants to human ACE2
Wowee, with this kind of dedication and source discipline you'll crack the case in no time.
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@Gribnit ha! Already takes less than a second to crack an egg.
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@boomzilla said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@Gribnit ha! Already takes less than a second to crack an egg.
On the contrary - it takes the entire lifespan of the universe to crack an egg.
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@boomzilla But why is Department of Energy preparing a report on it?
TFA said:
The Energy Department, which oversees a network of U.S. national laboratories
I see. Ok, then why is the Energy Department overseeing laboratories?