Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!
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@topspin said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
If these are completely detached and your jurisdiction requires you to wear a mask in your own bed, well that's a different problem.
Texas:
No comment. If I were to comment on this, it would have to be in the Garage thread.
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@japonicus said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
Several times now I've walked to the supermarket with a mask in my pocket, quite prepared to wear it, but baulked at the last moment because no-one else is wearing one.
In my mind canon, everyone's carrying a mask in their pocket and is feeling awkward about using it.
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This post is deleted!
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@Gąska said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@japonicus said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
Status: Am I a horrible person if I don't wear a mask?
Depends. Do you believe in science or in fear-mongering politicians?
The answer to that question is completely irrelevant, since there's scientific evidence that cloth masks and surgical face masks have a measurable effect.
- https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-020-0843-2
- A bunch of other sources are listed at the end of this article: https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/prevent-getting-sick/cloth-face-cover-guidance.html
The face shields, however: Yeah, they're mostly useless. They only protect everyone else from your spit, but the biggest problem in badly ventilated spaces is the aerosol you're exhaling.
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@dfdub I explicitly asked whether any such studies exist last month, and nobody linked anything. Now I simply asserted masks don't work, and lo and behold, a whole dozen of studies proving masks useful. Purple beggar wins again.
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@dfdub said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
there's scientific evidence that cloth masks and surgical face masks have a measurable effect
Yes. See e.g. Wally:
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@boomzilla and all the deaths that resulted get bound up in the excess deaths number, which gets 100% attributed to COVID-19.
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@Benjamin-Hall So some of the deaths are more indirect than others…
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@boomzilla Am I mis-remembering, or weren't hospitals only allowing emergency and covid only until recently?
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@Gąska said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
I explicitly asked whether any such studies exist last month
I must have missed that post. And there's a good chance many of the studies weren't even published or easily searchable via Google back when you asked.
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@hungrier said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@boomzilla Am I mis-remembering, or weren't hospitals only allowing emergency and covid only until recently?
I can't speak to your situation but for this area you are partly misremembering. Emergency rooms were definitely open, but as TFA says, any procedures that could be delayed were delayed.
A friend of mine went to the hospital with chest pain and shortness of breath in early May. While there he had a heart attack, then was in an induced coma and on a ventilator for about a month before he recovered enough to come off. Eventually he went to a rehab facility and went home a few days ago. Never tested positive for COVID but going to the ER before the attack almost certainly saved his life.
OTOH, I have a cousin who had to delay some cancer treatment, which I thought was pretty outrageous. It seems to have turned out OK, though, so apparently they were correct in her case.
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@Benjamin-Hall Excess deaths are certainly not a good indicator. There are also factors influenced by our response that decrease excess deaths artificially: Less accidents due to lockdowns, less deaths from other infectious diseases due to social distancing, etc. Unlike other less-than-perfect metrics, you cannot even tell the direction in which it's skewed.
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@dfdub said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@Benjamin-Hall Excess deaths are certainly not a good indicator. There are also factors influenced by our response that decrease excess deaths artificially: Less accidents due to lockdowns, less deaths from other infectious diseases due to social distancing, etc. Unlike other less-than-perfect metrics, you cannot even tell the direction in which it's skewed.
Oh absolutely. But that's the number that's often being thrown around as being indicative of the "true" COVID-19 death toll.
I've been complaining about the fact that all the data is bad and manipulated since the beginning.
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@Benjamin-Hall said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
Oh absolutely. But that's the number that's often being thrown around as being indicative of the "true" COVID-19 death toll.
It's known to be better than the official figures for how many have it as those often systematically exclude major groups of people who are known to be highly susceptible (such as people in nursing homes). The total number of deaths, though it takes time to come right, is probably more indicative than anything else as most countries like to keep track of that; the tax people see to that.
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@boomzilla Next up for 2020…
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@boomzilla said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/nyc-rats-attacking-outdoor-diners-201628328.html
Finally, a replacement for Murder Hornets was found: Hungry Rats.
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@BernieTheBernie Not scary enough.
Rapacious Rats.
Now with extra alliteration
I would also accept Ravenous Rats.
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@Zecc Rambunctious Rodents
On second thought, no. It sounds more like Ubuntu release.
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@Applied-Mediocrity
That is the version aimed at law firms, no?
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@BernieTheBernie said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
Hungry Rats
Is that the sequel to Angry Birds?
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Good old Amazon
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@topspin I'd be more surprised if they didn't. But then, I'm Polish...
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@dfdub I don't know about fatalities, but around where I live, car accidents actually spiked during the early "lockdown". This seemed very counter-intuitive to me, but I guess with fewer cars on the road, people who were out drove faster and crashed more often.
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@HannibalRex
That's interesting. In any case, it only proves my point that there are many counterintuitive and hard-to-quantify influences. We can somewhat quantify the number of deaths directly related to COVID - at least in countries where there's no political pressure to doctor the numbers, like in Russia or China - but much of the talk about side effects is pure speculation at this point.Who knows, maybe the fact that a lot of (potentially unnecessary) surgeries were delayed will end up saving lives too?
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@dfdub said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
We can somewhat quantify the number of deaths directly related to COVID
But only starting from March 2020.
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@Gąska said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@dfdub said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
We can somewhat quantify the number of deaths directly related to COVID
But only starting from March 2020.
I'd say even later, like April or May 2020. I'm not convinced that a significant portion of people who died of possibly COVID-related health problems in March was actually tested.
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@dfdub said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
The answer to that question is completely irrelevant, since there's scientific evidence that cloth masks and surgical face masks have a measurable effect.
Since scientific evidence is boring, here's some interesting anecdotal evidence that cloth masks work:
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Dumb Florida Man COVID death attribution or dumbest Florida Man COVID death attribution?
But you could actually argue that it could have been the COVID-19 that caused him to crash.
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@Gąska said in Quotes Out of Context:
Anyway, suffering from COVID is no more likely than suffering from HIV, especially given the typical age of... participants.
Statistically incorrect. At least assuming similar statistics in Poland (or USA considering your reply) as in Germany.
Unless the last half of the sentence implies you mean being infected for one but only counting symptomatic ones for the other.
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@topspin said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
Unless the last half of the sentence implies you mean being infected for one but only counting symptomatic ones for the other.
I never heard of asymptomatic HIV. The last part was meant to imply I haven't heard of many 80+ BDSM aficionados (and I REALLY REALLY REALLY want to keep it that way, thank you very much!)
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@Gąska said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@topspin said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
Unless the last half of the sentence implies you mean being infected for one but only counting symptomatic ones for the other.
I never heard of asymptomatic HIV. The last part was meant to imply I haven't heard of many 80+ BDSM aficionados (and I REALLY REALLY REALLY want to keep it that way, thank you very much!)
People under 80 get Covid, they just have a lower fatality rate.
I wasn’t sure if you’re going to make adistinction between “Covid“ (i.e. “Corona Virus disease”) and being “SARS-CoV-2 positive”. If you’re discounting the latter, you’re ignoring that they can be infectious and shouldn’t be comparing with HIV+ but with AIDS, for which the numbers are way lower.
(Asymptomatic HIV makes no sense because the symptoms are AIDS)Anyways, to google some official numbers for Germany:
Covid: 200,000 (and rising, obviously)
HIV: 90,000
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@topspin said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@Gąska said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@topspin said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
Unless the last half of the sentence implies you mean being infected for one but only counting symptomatic ones for the other.
I never heard of asymptomatic HIV. The last part was meant to imply I haven't heard of many 80+ BDSM aficionados (and I REALLY REALLY REALLY want to keep it that way, thank you very much!)
People under 80 get Covid, they just have a lower fatality rate.
And lower hospitalization rate. And lower breathing problems rate. And lower fever rate. And lower any sort of discomfort whatsoever rate. "Suffer" was the operative word. No, this is not some word game to weasel out. I mean suffer as in I suffered from common cold last year because I've had a headache for a few hours.
I wasn’t sure if you’re going to make a
distinction between “Covid“ (i.e. “Corona Virus disease”) and being “SARS-CoV-2 positive”.
Is the difference between being cold and hypothermia also
? Because that's what you basically said. It doesn't matter whether it does any harm to you whatsoever or not, what matters is whether that specific strain of RNA exists in the confines of your body.
If you’re discounting the latter, you’re ignoring that they can be infectious and shouldn’t be comparing with HIV+ but with AIDS, for which the numbers are way lower.
Except the only thing that stops HIV+ people from developing AIDS is taking strong medicine everyday for the rest of their lives. Compare that to people who avoided symptoms of COVID, who simply did nothing.
(Asymptomatic HIV makes no sense because the symptoms are AIDS)
I don't even know what you meant to convey by that. It's impossible to be HIV-positive without symptoms of AIDS? (Which is entirely true, BTW, if you don't get treatment. But that supports my argument more than yours.)
Anyways, to google some official numbers for Germany:
Covid: 200,000 (and rising, obviously)
HIV: 90,000Deaths? Hospitalizations? Medical treatments? Or just detected cases? (The last two numbers are equal for HIV, by the way.) Also, is it only among kinky sex enthusiasts, or general population? Because my original post was about kinky sex enthusiasts.
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@Gąska said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@topspin said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@Gąska said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@topspin said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
Unless the last half of the sentence implies you mean being infected for one but only counting symptomatic ones for the other.
I never heard of asymptomatic HIV. The last part was meant to imply I haven't heard of many 80+ BDSM aficionados (and I REALLY REALLY REALLY want to keep it that way, thank you very much!)
People under 80 get Covid, they just have a lower fatality rate.
And lower hospitalization rate. And lower breathing problems rate. And lower fever rate. And lower any sort of discomfort whatsoever rate. "Suffer" was the operative word. No, this is not some word game to weasel out. I mean suffer as in I suffered from common cold last year because I've had a headache for a few hours.
But, unless I'm missing something, not a lower infection or transmission rate.
I wasn’t sure if you’re going to make a
distinction between “Covid“ (i.e. “Corona Virus disease”) and being “SARS-CoV-2 positive”.
Is the difference between being cold and hypothermia also
? Because that's what you basically said. It doesn't matter whether it does any harm to you whatsoever or not, what matters is whether that specific strain of RNA exists in the confines of your body.
Well, I'm still not sure if you were actually making that distinction or not. Were you?
What matters with regard to you original post is if you are infectious. So yes, that probably relates to whether you are infected.If you’re discounting the latter, you’re ignoring that they can be infectious and shouldn’t be comparing with HIV+ but with AIDS, for which the numbers are way lower.
Except the only thing that stops HIV+ people from developing AIDS is taking strong medicine everyday for the rest of their lives. Compare that to people who avoided symptoms of Corona Virus disease (or whatever you call it), who simply did nothing.
But it's the correct comparison to make, if you want to make the distinction. Also, said medicine prevents transmission.
(Asymptomatic HIV makes no sense because the symptoms are AIDS)
I don't even know what you meant to convey by that. It's impossible to be HIV-positive without symptoms of AIDS? (Which is entirely true, BTW, if you don't get treatment. But that supports my argument more than yours.)
No, it means when talking about symptoms the analog of "Sars-Cov-2 positive without Covid symptoms" is "HIV+ without AIDS".
Anyways, to google some official numbers for Germany:
Covid: 200,000 (and rising, obviously)
HIV: 90,000Deaths? Hospitalizations? Medical treatments? Or just detected cases? (The last two numbers are equal for HIV, by the way.) Also, is it only among kinky sex enthusiasts, or general population? Because my original post was about kinky sex enthusiasts.
Detected cases, but the percentage of unreported cases is assumed to be higher for Covid than for HIV.
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@topspin said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@Gąska said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@topspin said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@Gąska said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@topspin said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
Unless the last half of the sentence implies you mean being infected for one but only counting symptomatic ones for the other.
I never heard of asymptomatic HIV. The last part was meant to imply I haven't heard of many 80+ BDSM aficionados (and I REALLY REALLY REALLY want to keep it that way, thank you very much!)
People under 80 get Covid, they just have a lower fatality rate.
And lower hospitalization rate. And lower breathing problems rate. And lower fever rate. And lower any sort of discomfort whatsoever rate. "Suffer" was the operative word. No, this is not some word game to weasel out. I mean suffer as in I suffered from common cold last year because I've had a headache for a few hours.
But, unless I'm missing something, not a lower infection or transmission rate.
You could've just said at the very beginning your entire point is "think of the
childrenelderly" and we could've avoided this whole discussion.Anyways, to google some official numbers for Germany:
Covid: 200,000 (and rising, obviously)
HIV: 90,000Deaths? Hospitalizations? Medical treatments? Or just detected cases? (The last two numbers are equal for HIV, by the way.) Also, is it only among kinky sex enthusiasts, or general population? Because my original post was about kinky sex enthusiasts.
Detected cases, but the percentage of unreported cases is assumed to be higher for Covid than for HIV.
Mostly because undetected (= untreated) HIV kills. Always, in every case. Imagine if HIV age-specific fatality rates were the same as they're for COVID. How many gays would bother with a condom for one night stands?
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@Gąska said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@topspin said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@Gąska said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@topspin said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@Gąska said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@topspin said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
Unless the last half of the sentence implies you mean being infected for one but only counting symptomatic ones for the other.
I never heard of asymptomatic HIV. The last part was meant to imply I haven't heard of many 80+ BDSM aficionados (and I REALLY REALLY REALLY want to keep it that way, thank you very much!)
People under 80 get Covid, they just have a lower fatality rate.
And lower hospitalization rate. And lower breathing problems rate. And lower fever rate. And lower any sort of discomfort whatsoever rate. "Suffer" was the operative word. No, this is not some word game to weasel out. I mean suffer as in I suffered from common cold last year because I've had a headache for a few hours.
But, unless I'm missing something, not a lower infection or transmission rate.
You could've just said at the very beginning your entire point is "think of the
childrenelderly" and we could've avoided this whole discussion.What?? That's not even close to what I said?!
You were talking about the risk of infection at @error's sex parties, and what is relevant for that is -obviously- if a person is infectious and not if a person has symptoms.Anyways, to google some official numbers for Germany:
Covid: 200,000 (and rising, obviously)
HIV: 90,000Deaths? Hospitalizations? Medical treatments? Or just detected cases? (The last two numbers are equal for HIV, by the way.) Also, is it only among kinky sex enthusiasts, or general population? Because my original post was about kinky sex enthusiasts.
Detected cases, but the percentage of unreported cases is assumed to be higher for Covid than for HIV.
Mostly because undetected (= untreated) HIV kills. Always, in every case. Imagine if HIV age-specific fatality rates were the same as they're for COVID. How many gays would bother with a condom for one night stands?
What does that have to do with infection risk?
EDIT: wait, I think I get it. I'm talking about the risk of person A infecting person B, you're talking about the risk of person B developing symptoms if they get infected. Is that it?
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@topspin said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@Gąska said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@topspin said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@Gąska said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@topspin said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@Gąska said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@topspin said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
Unless the last half of the sentence implies you mean being infected for one but only counting symptomatic ones for the other.
I never heard of asymptomatic HIV. The last part was meant to imply I haven't heard of many 80+ BDSM aficionados (and I REALLY REALLY REALLY want to keep it that way, thank you very much!)
People under 80 get Covid, they just have a lower fatality rate.
And lower hospitalization rate. And lower breathing problems rate. And lower fever rate. And lower any sort of discomfort whatsoever rate. "Suffer" was the operative word. No, this is not some word game to weasel out. I mean suffer as in I suffered from common cold last year because I've had a headache for a few hours.
But, unless I'm missing something, not a lower infection or transmission rate.
You could've just said at the very beginning your entire point is "think of the
childrenelderly" and we could've avoided this whole discussion.What?? That's not even close to what I said?!
Let me ask you this: why does being infected matter? In case of HIV: it's because it kills you. Always, in every case (when left untreated).
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@Gąska see edit. I think we were talking about different things.
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@topspin yes, that's it. I thought I made that sufficiently clear by 3rd post and thought you're just raging at me for not taking the possibility of ME killing SOMEONE ELSE seriously enough.
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@topspin said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@error's sex parties,
Sex is not really the focus of these, though it does happen (as I imagine it does at plenty of vanilla parties).
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@Gąska said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@topspin yes, that's it. I thought I made that sufficiently clear by 3rd post
I assumed that the distinction of covid symptoms vs. infected was to imply the person without the symptoms wouldn't pass it on, as you were talking about risks originally. I didn't think you were talking about if it matters if you get infected.
Or, as I labelled them "person A infects person B" above, I thought you were making the distinction about person A, which is irrelevant because both cases are infectious (hence the argument), when you were making it about person B.In that case it sounds more like the argument is "HIV is worse than Covid, if you get it". Maybe so, but that's a different discussion.
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@topspin said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@Gąska said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@topspin yes, that's it. I thought I made that sufficiently clear by 3rd post
I assumed that the distinction of covid symptoms vs. infected was to imply the person without the symptoms wouldn't pass it on, as you were talking about risks originally.
Thank you for assuming I'm an utter idiot who has no idea how viruses work. I really appreciate that.
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@Gąska said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@topspin said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@Gąska said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@topspin yes, that's it. I thought I made that sufficiently clear by 3rd post
I assumed that the distinction of covid symptoms vs. infected was to imply the person without the symptoms wouldn't pass it on, as you were talking about risks originally.
Thank you for assuming I'm an utter idiot who has no idea how viruses work. I really appreciate that.
It's not like you assumed any less.
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@topspin I think "a raging Karen who can't stand people not taking COVID seriously" is a few notches less than "an utter idiot who has no idea how viruses work".
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@error said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
Sex is not really the focus of these, though it does happen (as I imagine it does at plenty of vanilla parties).
"It's lifestyle parties. We want to keep that plausible deniability."
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@topspin said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
(Asymptomatic HIV makes no sense because the symptoms are AIDS)
AIDS is the late stage of the disease associated with HIV, and occurs when HIV has basically destroyed your immune system and other opportunistic diseases are just finishing the person off. It's also why it's basically untreatable once things get to that point: the damage has been done. During most of the time that people have untreated HIV, they are functionally asymptomatic. The big problems with HIV are that it kills off the immune system and that it is basically asymptomatic for a long time while being infectious (providing bodily fluids are exchanged), but it has a reinfection rate of functionally zero outside of a very few situations.
SARS-CoV-2 is a totally different virus. Infects different cells, using a different mechanism. The level of asymptomatic transmission is negligible precisely because it is a respiratory disease: coughs and sneezes and so on are the main transmission mechanism and are very much symptoms. It would be a mostly trivial disease except for the nasty stings in the tail in some cases with massive lung damage, cytokine storms and vast quantities of microclots. All respiratory diseases spread fast and wide.
The other big difference is that we've got a good treatment plan for HIV and haven't (yet) for SARS-CoV-2.
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@dkf said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
coughs and sneezes and so on are the main transmission mechanism
I wouldn't be so sure about that given that the virus has been found in untreated sewage:
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/community/sanitation-wastewater-workers.html
It's possible that people are coughing into their toilets, but consider what normally goes into untreated sewage and how polio, for example, is transmitted.
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@antiquarian said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
I wouldn't be so sure about that given that the virus has been found in untreated sewage:
Cocaine has also been found in untreated sewage but we don't see people snorting the stuff.